Bird Flu Vaccine Spurs Virus Evolution

Bird Flu Vaccine Spurs Virus Evolution

the-scientist.com

…H5N1 …bird flu, is mutating faster in countries that have …wide-scale, but incomplete, vaccinations of poultry, according to a report published online in Vaccine (October 12). The genetic changes …rendered the vaccinations ineffective, and increased the risk that the virus could jump to humans.

…viruses circulating in countries with mass vaccination efforts were evolving faster, and had become genetically distinct from the virus that the vaccine was designed to combat.

(visit the link for the full news article)

So vaccination programs are making bird flu mutate faster - and more likely to jump to humans. Not a surprise.

There have been several human deaths from bird flu in the past week - and authorities in Bali fear it's now jumping person-to-person.

Bird flu already caused a "chicken apocalypse" - and along with a whole pile of other diseases, is poised to go pandemic in humans.

"...H5N1 has already been the cause of a chicken apocalypse. Once it learns to go human to human there'll be no stopping the damn thing."

'We ignore bird flu at our peril'

The standard 'modern' response to disease and pandemics is vaccination - but as the chicken situation shows, maybe that's really not such a good idea. Diseases DO mutate and evolve - maybe human vaccines, like chicken vaccines, actually create something worse.

H5N1 bird flu hasn't gone away. It's all over Indonesia, Egypt, Vietnam and a few more countries - in the soil, water and poultry. Looks like H1N1 swine flu is there too. Which means it won't be long before the 2 strains get together.

If we get a flu virus that combines bird flu's deadliness with swine flu's catchiness - which we probably will - then we'll be in big trouble. Even worse, survivors probably will be prone to long term debilitating and disabling chronic disease as they age. And we already know vaccines don't prevent that - else we wouldn't be in the middle of a chronic disease pandemic.

Granted, authorities blame bird flu's propensity to mutation on incomplete and therefor, failed vaccination programs. But seems to me, our natural planetary environment can never be "controlled" like a closed laboratory. There's always some contaminant or another showing up to skew the results. So if the vaccination program requires full environmental control of the world, then said program is ill-conceived.















the-scientist.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

I ordered my SARS face masks in designer colors, anyone else?
I'm so jealous of these Asian countries that have most of their populations in masks at the malls and grocery stores, I can't wait for our air to get just as deadly here in America.
Yay vaccines! Always good stories connected to vaccines.

This is nothing really compared to what is coming down the line for us next!

Imagine how dangerous this modern vaccine technique is, and how often it fails to achieve it's goals.

Now imagine nano-bot technology and having millions of those things put into your body! Oh countless things could go very very wrong, just think if the nano-bots attacked your actual blood cells individually by accident or something!

In this comparison the modern toxic vaccine actually appears somewhat safer. Never though I'd say that.

Originally posted by JibbyJedi
I ordered my SARS face masks in designer colors, anyone else?
I'm so jealous of these Asian countries that have most of their populations in masks at the malls and grocery stores, I can't wait for our air to get just as deadly here in America.
Yay vaccines! Always good stories connected to vaccines.

2 points.

1) I also want a mask and think we should get in on that fad.

2) Sadly a face mask isn't going to do anything for us in the face of the types and levels of contamination we are facing globally.

Surprise, Surprise!

Contagion: Could it really happen? - BBC NEWS

Hollywood blockbusters are not normally known for their scientific accuracy. So how realistic is the new disaster movie Contagion, which depicts the spread of a killer virus across the world?

'Too late to contain swine flu', 'Sars virus 'mutating rapidly', 'Bird flu fear as mutant strain hits China and Vietnam'.

These are not lines from the film. They are all real headlines from the past decade.

They all relate to illnesses which it was feared could spread around the globe and kill millions.

But, while each has claimed lives, none has become the feared "modern plague".

So how realistic is the depiction of the spread of the fatal infectious disease in Contagion?

According to one scientist who has already seen the film, the answer is very.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by JibbyJedi
I ordered my SARS face masks in designer colors, anyone else?
I'm so jealous of these Asian countries that have most of their populations in masks at the malls and grocery stores, I can't wait for our air to get just as deadly here in America.
Yay vaccines! Always good stories connected to vaccines.

2 points.

1) I also want a mask and think we should get in on that fad.

2) Sadly a face mask isn't going to do anything for us in the face of the types and levels of contamination we are facing globally.

I know but I want to look like a good obedient sheeple when my eye ducts start bleeding in the grocery stores.

Well this is a wake-up call!!!

Step up everything we know to pump the immune system?

But wait... didnt the last pandemic attack the stronger immune systems harder? ( Pigflu)

Do we all rush to get vaccinated? Or will these vaccines be the recombination which will aid in the transfer of the mutations?

Are the vaccines that are administered to 1 day old chicks at poultry houses actually causing the chickens to get sick later or be weakened to other strains they would otherwise have a natural immunity to?

WTH?

Originally posted by soficrow

So vaccination programs are making bird flu mutate faster - and more likely to jump to humans. Not a surprise.

They're not making it mutate faster. They're selecting the mutants that are immune to the vaccine. A more complete vaccination program would reduce the pool in which the virus can survive, and reduce the number of variations that appear.

reply to post by muzzleflash

Sadly a face mask isn't going to do anything for us in the face of the types and levels of contamination we are facing globally.

So worth repeating. So true. ...and everything really does give us cancer.

But it's also very true that minimizing exposure helps hugely too - gives our bodies a chance to adapt, and get with Gaia's molecular program at a slower, more reasonable pace.

reply to post by CasiusIgnoranze


Uh huh. Movies like Contagion are responsible, imho - they give us a heads up in an accessible format. Altering memes and all that. ...I'm just worried about the euthanasia policies and quarantines. Big mistake.

reply to post by FurvusRexCaeli

A more complete vaccination program would reduce the pool in which the virus can survive, and reduce the number of variations that appear.

How ya gonna vaccinate the entire planet? ...As I said in my OP, the world is NOT a closed laboratory. The "vaccination concept" is fundamentally flawed.

the key to your comment is the word "incomplete" which is also the key to the surge in bacterial super bugs now resistant to antibiotics. Consider both virus and bacteria....
Two things contribute to bacteria becoming resistant, which of course is in the structure of that organism. It is a defense by that organism to survive. However it cannot against the full blown introduction of antibiotics given for the full treatment dose. It becomes a problem when the patient feels better and does not finish the dosage requirements. The organism remains alive or dormant, only to return resistant to what was given it before, then mutates into a bug that antibiotic can no longer kill.
Two things cause this bacterial mutations [simplified-there are more specific as well]
1. over use of antibiotics, and
2. the failure of people to complete the course of treatment. that is "incomplete" treatment.

antibiotics do not kill virus. Only bacteria so that is not a consideration in viral control.
Only the human immune system or vaccines can control a virus. Once you get it, you have it until it runs its course. Vaccines "prevent" virus growth by triggering the immune system. Antibiotics are given after the infection occurs in most cases and treat it after it is already happening. so there is a difference in treatment...
So it seems to me several things can cause viral mutations.
1. Natural mutations over time ...and this does occur.
2. Mutations due to ineffective or poorly made vaccines.
3. Less than useful use of vaccines through misuse or lack of controls in its distribution.
and possibly
4. Vaccines that have been diluted to somewhat less than their effective dose recommendations. do you believe the drug companies would dilute a vaccine to the point it is no longer effective? [no comment]
[there may be a 5th which is deliberate genetic mutation manipulated in labs]
The key to these mutations for both virus and bacterial are in one key word you wrote at the beginning of your thread. "incomplete"
example:
If you are attacked by someone would you rather have a gun or a knife for self defense.
a gun will effectively stop your attacker. a knife will if you know how to throw or are very good with it, but a knife sometimes will bounce off, allowing your attacker to pick it up and counter attack you with it. A bullet does not bounce off.................
the gun is the better choice. If you are going to protect yourself do it completely in everything.
If you take a chance you may loose and the same goes with virus and bacteria.

Sometimes we cause these problems through our own neglect, and sometimes as in the case of vaccines others cause the problem without our knowledge such as in the case of ineffective vaccines for whatever the reason may be. If we meddle with the natural process of life, we must expect some consequences.
DH

I have bookmarked this thread, I feel it is that important.

For some odd reason there have not been the large numbers of kids sick at school this year from flu.

Is this the calm before the storm or have less people been taking the vaccines in our community and the result is that those people head straight to work and back to school and start spreading whatever they were vaccinated against... Just my opinion...

I would have loved to see the movie contagion but my town refused to run the movie for fear it would disturb the students at the local Baptist College.

reply to post by soficrow


STATISTICLY: (Based on avrage healthy people who eat 3 meals and walk atleast 30 min a day)
People who have gotten none to a few shots in there lifetime by 30 have a 35% chance to catch one of the H*N* strains due to white bloodcell count. (Increases or decreases on diet and Hereditary blood issues or new ones) *Eg. Cerial has a HIGH Red/White blood cell creation rate due to the high iron and calcium when ate with milk*

i eat Grain, Meat, Fruit and Dairy.
I drink milk and water.

i get sick with the common cold twice a year (Early Spring and early fall)

It varies with every person but if people would just let there bodies handel things but take Cough medicine and Advil or similar things we would have better immune systems, (Have a hydrolic suit help you climb the roap wall or do it yourself, what build more muscle?)

Originally posted by antar
Well this is a wake-up call!!!

WTH?

Perhaps it's time we all visit our local city or university libraries and begin reading the contemporary reporting and first hand accounts of the 1918 Spanish Flu. I'm wondering if the lessons learned and talked about in the weeks and months following that pandemic burning out might not be important to refresh our memories with.

I can handle comets and asteroids. I can take news of nuclear war and armies on the march. These things can be hidden from, fought up front or dealt with in other ways. I can't very well handle critters too small to see and impossible to hide from.

Of every possible scenario that could bring bad times to our lives, this one is really the only one to scare me on a fundamental level. I pray this isn't the mysterious "it". 'I am legend' actually wasn't a movie I enjoyed terribly....and the real life version is something I'd just as soon never see come off the silver screen.

reply to post by soficrow


I guess i need to get my mask. thanks for the heads up. I haev a question about this bird flu human made flu. I have never ever taken a flu shot, im 50. am i safer because i haevnt ever taken a flu shot? If this pandemic did makeit to america, thankfully I live far far out of town a total of 25 familes on 150 acres. so what do you think am i safer or what? This years possible flu pandemics are making me nervous with the fast pace they can spread. ANd with sicence messing with genetics to make super flu shots and mass killings of poultry and next it hsoudl be the pigs, its scarry.

reply to post by soficrow


"Indeed, when Peyre investigated the vaccination practices in Egypt, she found that in some areas as little as 30 percent of the vaccinated bird population was protected from infection. In addition to the risk this poses to the poultry industry, a faster-evolving virus increases “the threat of emergence of a novel strain which might be one day be more specific to human infection,” said Peyre." Full article here. the-scientist.com...


This same thing happens in all species that are vaccinated.
"But Sencer is perhaps better known for his role in the controversial 1976 swine flu vaccination campaign, when he recommended nationwide vaccination against the flu after several cases were identified in New Jersey. More than 40 million Americans were vaccinated, the Associated Press notes, but the epidemic never occurred, and there were dozens of reports of Guillain-Barre syndrome, an autoimmune disorder, attributed to the vaccine". Former CDC Director dies. the-scientist.com...


It's really very simple, we know to little about the immune systems to be messing around with them. We don't understand the intricate interwoven structures that carry life inside them that God made. It's like giving a 4yr old a chemistry kit and telling them to go play. Our current experiments with food, animals and stem cell research for humans should make us all shudder at what has already been damaged beyond repair by our playtime. There are a whole host of corporations and government agents I'id love to spank and send to their room. Then make an attempt to clean up all the genetic mutations that have already been released into our environment. It's going to take Jesus Christ to repair the damage, so glad He's on His way.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I fear much of that golden information has been scrubbed at best and withheld online for paid subscribers. What you will find is only what they want you to find.

The population has blown up since those days as well, so the comparisons are not so simple.

There is however a wellspring of info on the subject here within the sacred walls of ats if you just use the search engine.

If this sounded sassy, it is not meant to be, I have just witnessed humanity and its cruelty, brutality, barbaric depravity from my own back porch...

Traumatized...

reply to post by antar

Step up everything we know to pump the immune system?

But wait... didnt the last pandemic attack the stronger immune systems harder? ( Pigflu)

Yes - the dreaded cytokine storm. It's the young and healthy who are hit the hardest.

Don't give up on advanced human bird flu cases -expert

An expert who treated numerous bird flu victims in Vietnam has urged doctors not to lose hope with patients who are admitted late to hospital as there is still a good chance that they can survive. ..."If you can decrease the viral load (with drugs), you can have a good outcome. Even those who are treated late had good results," he told the conference.

...de Jong, head of virology at the Hospital for Tropical Diseases in Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam, said Tamiflu could still be used to fight bird flu many days after the onset of symptoms because the avian virus would still be multiplying. ...De Jong agreed with many experts that an early start to treatment was still best ..."You have to get very effective treatment as early as possible because you will prevent direct viral damage (to lung and other tissues)," de Jong said.

…Early treatment could also prevent what is known as the "cytokine storm response", when a human's immune system launches such a heavy counter-attack that it destroys not only the invading avian flu virus, but the person's own surrounding tissues as well...

Do we all rush to get vaccinated? Or will these vaccines be the recombination which will aid in the transfer of the mutations?

Vaccines are really the only response authorities have to offer. So they push them. But you know and I know there are "issues."

…It's becoming crystal clear that viruses adapt to vaccines in a similar way that bacteria adapt to antibiotics - developing resistance and "work-arounds."

Are the vaccines that are administered to 1 day old chicks at poultry houses actually causing the chickens to get sick later or be weakened to other strains they would otherwise have a natural immunity to?

WTH?

Weakened to other strains, most likely. That would be a work-around. Followed by 'resistance.'


reply to post by antar

there have not been the large numbers of kids sick at school this year from flu.

There have been lots of sick kids and adults here - whatever it is seems to stay, or recur over and over. I'm good so far but I don't get out much.

I would have loved to see the movie contagion but my town refused to run the movie for fear it would disturb the students at the local Baptist College.

The whole "evolution debate" has made so many totally ignorant of what's coming, why and how to take protective measures. [steam] They think viruses and super bugs don't evolve - and boy, are they gonna be blindsided.

….Remember this one? Bird Flu and Beyond: Assisted Suicide Instead of Prevention

reply to post by DavidsHope

If we meddle with the natural process of life, we must expect some consequences.

How true. And those consequences are guaranteed to impact other systems, and increase complexity overall. Thus making it even more dangerous to meddle. The chicken-vaccine conundrum parallels the swine flu problem: Scientific American: U.S. Pig Farms May Be 'Flu Factories'

…You also might find this old thread interesting: Bird Flu. Disease? Or Evolutionary Change? From the thread:

The viruses that make us: a role for endogenous retrovirus in the evolution of placental species

….There is now sufficient evidence to suggest that horizontally transmitted agents and gene sets allow the rapid adaption of various living systems...

….We currently think of a virus as an agent that necessarily reduce host fitness and generally cause disease, together with other pathogenic microorganisms, such as bacteria and fungi. …viruses can also invent systems of molecular genetic identity and superimpose a new combined identity onto the infected host. In so doing, a virus can allow the host itself to adapt to the environment and evolve quickly, providing a creative force that the host may further develop into systems of identity and immunity that can contribute directly to host evolution.

...the genomes of placental mammals are also highly infected with retroviruses found only in their genomes (endogenous) and because retroviruses are generally immunosuppressive, I examine the possibility that the embryo is acting like an infectious agent that produces virus to suppress the mother's immune system.
…parasitic viral-like genomes may represent one of the primary mechanisms for the evolution of higher order living systems.