In Memory of the late Col. Muammar Gaddafi - What History Books will NEVER tell your kids about

Originally posted by leelo
2.So, the people there simply decided to rise against him, why? Did they just not have anything better to do that day?

They were brainwashed by the USA. Gaddafi actually was a great humble leader and the US government felt threatened by him./sarcasm

Seriously, lately I've been wondering if most conspiracy theorists are the most closed minded people in the world.

It is not my place or my desire to judge any other human being or to label them good or evil. Nor can I prove or disprove the accusations made against him or in his defense. He, like many before him, is dead and am not such a great person as to cast judgment on his life or character. All I know with certainty (or at least as much certainty as is possible with regard to anything in reality) is that all nations - Libya included - commit human rights abuses to one degree or another. (And in my view, any degree is one degree too many.)

There are no saints in the international power arena or in the echelons of geopolitics. Holding power is a messy, dirty business - at least in the established order - and regardless of initial intent, leaders end up doing horrific things, whether directly or indirectly. I cannot allow myself to pretend that Gaddafi was innocent of all wrongdoing anymore than I would pretend any other nation or its leaders are innocent.

I agree with an earlier poster that the term which applies here is probably "cognitive dissonance." People (understandably) oppose Western foreign policy, intervention, and hegemony, and so they then defend or identify with other nations who also commit acts which, absent that identification, they would likely oppose. I can't be a party to that kind of dissonance, personally. If we are going to say that one nation is guilty of human rights abuses, then we must acknowledge that all nations are (or have been) in my opinion.

Regardless though, that does not mean that I wanted to see him or anyone else dead, or that I don't wish people would adhere to international law and human rights in armed conflict, including the Geneva Conventions pertaining to the treatment of subdued prisoners of war. I would much prefer to have seen him being given a trial than to see him being summarily executed. I know that isn't a popular point of view, but people will just have to respect/tolerate that I would not wish death even on my worst enemy, as I oppose capital punishment.

Just my two cents. Peace.

rest in peace??? REST IN PIECES...

reply to post by wlasikiewicz


I would like to point out that not everything they teach in our schools is accurate. Some things are "winners view" propaganda. I hope you do not leave all of your children's learning about the world to just what they"teach" in our schools.

reply to post by CasiusIgnoranze


Thank you for doing this. Great job. And it needed to be done.

You're right, imho. Gaddafhi made the mistake of proving a country really can provide its people free education, health care and everything else. Just not with corporate rule. Corporations like their people scared, neglected and too sick and ignorant to make trouble.


...FYI - Have you noticed that our corporate rulers aka the World Economic Forum is all over the Middle East and Africa, post the revolutions? ....The corporations have taken over - and no, there will NOT be free education, health care or anything else.

S&F&

Originally posted by Flow101

Seriously, lately I've been wondering if most conspiracy theorists are the most closed minded people in the world.

You mean the "Conspiracy theory" that Gaddafi is a big bad guy super evil villain? Yeah that is a really closed minded belief especially considering the DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE that is being disseminated all over the place right now disproving the media's totally fabricated story.

But hey I guess some people think TV shows are more credible than actual real documented facts. What can you do?

Maybe we should buy some TV commercial air time?

There hasn't been a dictator (or dictator "figure-head"), terrorist, or murderer who hasn't been PRAISED by this boards yet. Seemingly, the world is full of sunshines, rainbows and unicorns, and terrorists actually are funded by selling cookies door-to-door, not by these corrupt leaders.

There is plenty of documentation and almost self-admission by Gaddafi that he funded terrorist groups.. groups that killed innocents. Not to mention his ex-minister saying Gaddafi indeed ordered the Lockerbie bombing. And he has started wars for something as ridiculous as his enemy being led by a Christian black man.

He did some good things for the country. He actually is a fairly solid leader, as far as the day to day governance goes. It hardly excuses his transgressions... but all we get when they are brought up is "omg prove it!" There is reams of evidence. But it seems that if anything is brought up, if it came from any MSM source, it's disregarded. Obviously all news sources.. in the history of the world.. are lies.

I agree with the premise of the OP and also of Muzzleflash..

I know that in history anyone who has attempted to break away from the grip of the Bankers and their stranglehold on a nations economy was killed.

In 1960s when Kennedy found out about what the banks were planning for the United States...he began to issue from the US Treasury ...US Notes. These are not Federal Reserve Notes...this means non interest bearing notes unlike those issued by the Federal Reserve. These notes can be found in coin shops with the Olde Paper Notes for sale. These olde notes are discernible by the Red Seal on them and the date somewhere in the 1960s. After Kennedy died they quickly disappeared and also the coinage was replaced by a phony copper nickle system of which we have today.


Concerning the US media...be very very careful what you hear and believe from the US controlled media..even here on this computer. Some of you would be very offended to know how controlled the information is even in a computer era. And this included the fabeled Fox News. There is alot of news and informations they too do not and will not cover while claiming "Fair And Balanced." Notice they are not saying..."True." Think for yourself. Dont emote ..think!!!

I learned how heavy a paper curtain was over a supposedly free people years ago when I got my first shortwave set and began to contrast the total of what news and information was out there next to what we were fed daily by our own media. I still listen to short wave today...including domestic and foreign ham operators.
Some of you would be surprised, shocked, offended to realize how much our media is still controlled.

True you can get a great variety here from this computer ..but be discerning about your sources.

Also be aware that much of the media today...is tabloid like...in order to put you more and more on the emotional puppet strings for political reasons. This is an important clue. Your emotions are not always right in things..be very careful. The media will "Rape " you emotionally if you are not careful about how you think and act.

This Libya business is a textbook example of this emotional Rape. What has happened is that the bankers and investors have stolen a nation. There is no guarantee that the replacing government will be better than what they claim they have overthrown.

What is declared here about the water projects and their not being known in the West is true. This is carefully covered up information's. Also true about attempting to create a gold monies..not gold backed ..but actual gold coinage. This alone is a huge threat to those who have invested in fiat phony debt slavery monies.
This tells me that the country will be looted by the Bankers for gold and any other commodity and Libya will eventually go into the economic dregs.
The very same process slated and scheduled to go on in most of the Western World...by debt money creation.

America and NATO are boot lackeys for this debt system and when called upon we protect their investments. Not our country but the investments of these Debt Creators and the industries they finance.
Our military is not for the purpose of protecting Americans..but to protect investments of someone bigger and more powerful than America. Someone who does not want to be seen or known. Our people/military perish and have died/been wounded all around the world to protect someone elses investments..not always are they even American..but internationalists.

A United Africa with an actual gold coinage in circulation is a huge threat to this phony fiat debt structure.

The OP does not claim that Quadaffi was a good man..or great man ..but a man with a vision for his country and the continent. I agree with him.

Some of you emotional train wreck peoples need to remember this and contrast it with the conduct of many of our own leaders here in the States. You will find the contrast very enlightening.

I believe that Libya will go backwards ...deliberately and the oil and water kept off the market along with the gold.
The Oil countries are slated to have their oil kept in the ground and off the market to control and regulate prices..much like the diamond industry. Iraq oil is slated to be kept off the market.
Radical Islam is the perfect tool to keep a country backwards...and its resources off the market. This is exactly how communism worked in keeping nations backwards and their resources off the market. Radical Islam today has replaced Communism as a tool to control markets and keep people fearful.

This much becomes obvious when you start thinking and not emoting..or we would be paying much less for gasoline and oils byproducts right now. Think about that and put your emotions aside. Try some discipline not drama.

Thanks,
Orangetom

If I have no choice but to be enslaved by a government, I honestly prefer a government that gives free electric and my own house for once, considering I am already 30 and have two kids, and I know I'll NEVER be able to afford my own home in the USA. Especially considering the property taxes that come on top of purchase prices. I'm not into taking loans to buy things I cannot afford so it's not an option in this economy.

What's better a stingy and greedy dictator?
Or a generous and benevolent dictator?

I think we all know what the answer is.
It's real easy for the common human to judge these facts of reality for themselves...

Which is worse? 300 $ a month electric bill? Or 0 $?

All i can say is I think that Libya has just gone from the frying pan into the fire. Ihave a feeling that they are going to find they were better off with him than without him. No matter how good or bad he was to them they are going to find out they are now even worse off then before. I think that NATO and TPTB wanted him out a lot more than his people did. I think that no matter how you add it up this could very well be a step backward for Libya instead of the step forward they were hopping for. Only time will tell if they got it right or made a big mistake. As for me I really do not know one way or the other but from what I seen in the past such things as this more often than not end up going the wrong way.

reply to post by CasiusIgnoranze


The most important argument you have made, or better still, the nail was hit on the head in this paragraph

"Some believe it is about protecting civilians, others say it is about oil, but some are convinced intervention in Libya is all about Gaddafi’s plan to introduce the gold dinar, a single African currency made from gold, a true sharing of the wealth.
“It’s one of these things that you have to plan almost in secret, because as soon as you say you’re going to change over from the dollar to something else, you’re going to be targeted,” says Ministry of Peace founder Dr James Thring. “There were two conferences on this, in 1986 and 2000, organized by Gaddafi. Everybody was interested, most countries in Africa were keen.”
Gaddafi did not give up. In the months leading up to the military intervention, he called on African and Muslim nations to join together to create this new currency that would rival the dollar and euro. They would sell oil and other resources around the world only for gold dinars.
It is an idea that would shift the economic balance of the world."

Without any doubt this was the KEY issue at hand.

This idea will not go away quietly as CHINA are about to do something similar

Originally posted by fleabit
There hasn't been a dictator (or dictator "figure-head"), terrorist, or murderer who hasn't been PRAISED by this boards yet. Seemingly, the world is full of sunshines, rainbows and unicorns, and terrorists actually are funded by selling cookies door-to-door, not by these corrupt leaders.

Aye, and they are not terrorists - they are freedom fighters killing our women and children to save them from the tyranny of our oppressive evil government and the banks wot control them

I can just imagine this forum back in 1939 ....... or, rather 1945 eulogising the benevolent Hitler without whose wondrous doings so many would have suffered such hardship, and the kind, generous Stalin who wouldn't hurt a fly.


Ghaddafi was a supporter and benefactor of mass murderers. We will never forget.

reply to post by orangetom1999


You are right about a lot of what you wrote, I cannot find anything to argue against. Not even really much to nit-pick with like semantics, of which I enjoy doing from time to time.

You are correct that we are being misled primarily through emotional control techniques employed on us from our media outlets.

What really works in my opinion, is just stepping back and wiping the slate clean of all pre-conceived notions or beliefs about the topic specifically, and then ask myself "what do I actually have evidence for or against?" and then the reality starts to set in.

Another really important thing about evidence I like to do is question it.
Examples :
"Is this 'evidence' just a few easily faked photos?"
"Is this 'evidence' just some guy saying something?"
"Does this evidence actually consist of documented facts with multiple credible sources?"

Things like that. Questioning what we are told is our greatest weapon to freeing ourselves from their control.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
In 1960s when Kennedy found out about what the banks were planning for the United States...he began to issue from the US Treasury ...US Notes.

Nope. The amount of US Notes to be kept in circulation was set by law. Kennedy could not issue any more than were already in circulation.

These are not Federal Reserve Notes...this means non interest bearing notes unlike those issued by the Federal Reserve. These notes can be found in coin shops with the Olde Paper Notes for sale. These olde notes are discernible by the Red Seal on them and the date somewhere in the 1960s.

Modern style US Notes mostly had red, but also gold and brown seals. US Notes in various designs had been in circulation for a hundred years already when Kennedy was killed.

I learned how heavy a paper curtain was over a supposedly free people years ago when I got my first shortwave set and began to contrast the total of what news and information was out there next to what we were fed daily by our own media. I still listen to short wave today...including domestic and foreign ham operators.
Some of you would be surprised, shocked, offended to realize how much our media is still controlled.

And some of you would be surprised, shocked, offended to realize how much foreign media--including short wave--is still controlled.

Coulda woulda shoulda, that's what this sounds like.

Just remember hindsight is always 20/20, or in the case of this thread an extremely liberal interpretation of a man who's own people brought him down. If he was so "loved" why wouldn't he hold elections?

If libya was so great why didn't they have a massive immigration problem? Surely every starving african would love to live in the Libya the Op describes...

The general consensus of Ats is that the american ppl are fed up with the corrupt political and financial system we currently have. If we were to rise up and over throw them, I'm sure there would be people like you saying hey you know the US govt wasn't that bad, it was all lies.

Now go make your cake and eat it too

Originally posted by FurvusRexCaeli

US Notes in various designs had been in circulation for a hundred years already when Kennedy was killed.

That's fishy sounding.

You mean in circulation since the 1860s?

Like when that other guy Lincoln was killed?

Check this out, I assume you and most everyone has seen it but since you brought it up. Here it is.

Lincoln Kennedy coincidences

Why didn't you bring up the fact that those original US Notes were put into circulation by a guy who died in a similar fashion and is clouded in conspiracy which has a lot of US Treasury Note allegations as potential causes for the plot in the first place?

Gaddafi was clearly an enemy of the global corporate empire. (And people, stop equating the global corporate empire with the U.S., they are not the same)

Gaddafi was also a militant Islam, who started a war with Egypt because they signed a peace treaty with Israel.

While he was good to some, he was brutal to others. A bad man taken out by other bad men is what I see.

To claim this was a people's revolution is nonsense. The people who took over Libya seem to be far worse than Gaddafi. This was not a step forward, but back.

It does all come down to oil, and a on going shift in the corporate empire. As Arab oil runs out, Libyan oil becomes much more important. There are your pieces of the puzzle.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by CasiusIgnoranze

 

If he's such a great guy, then why did so many people participate in stringing him up? Were they all evil?

This is kind of ridiculous, the man was bad news.

edit on 21-10-2011 by Evolutionsend because: (no reason given)

Because thats what the CIA does they hire black ops and alCIAda to come in and get anyone who didn't like him to pick up arms.
You'll find anyone in any country who dis likes where they live or is against the system. All they need is protective promise and arms and funding to take the fight to the government. Just like here ,there are enough people in this country who hate our government that terrorist don't need to blow crap up them selves they just need to find the right people who are already in this country and have access to the proper items or weapons needed to get people stirred up and willing to fight. I'm surprised that a group hasn't set our own government up to look like it attacked it's own people to get things even more stirred up at our government with all the OWS going on it wouldn't take much.

Before this thread someone said...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Indeed they can.

The Holocaust never happened, or at least not the way history recorded it. And of course Hitler was misunderstood, he was a good man, great leader and greatly improved the economy and lives of all of his own people.

I know what I grew up seeing & hearing regarding this megalomaniac, this was well before any cable news/24 hour news channel. The op is well thought out & presented, it's far more coherant that many posts on ATS however I choose to maintain the belief that he was a cruel, inhumane, vicious, narcissistic control freak until I hear directly from someone who lived under his regime stating otherwise. It may very well be that, initially, he had good intentions toward his country & countrymen but once he got a taste of power, followed by the fear of loosing it, he did whatever he deemed necessary to hold on.