The Great Expeiment has Failed

Our forefathers and ancestors came to this country to be free. They wanted to live their lives the way they wanted to, without government intervention. They did not want to pay taxes for things they were not a part of, and specifically not paying taxes they were not represented to debate. Over 200 years later we have failed.

We are no longer that free society. We are no longer allowed to live free to do what we want with our lives. Thousands of lives have been lost, and for what? The beginning of the end was the industrial revolution. When our citizens gave up their farms and land to move closer to factory jobs we lost our identity. The last thread of freedom we enjoyed as a nation was prior to WWII. Since then we have been on a collision course with communism and socialism. We have allowed ourselves to restrict others freedoms in the name of protectionism and morality.

We think we are free because we can buy things, travel and change jobs. It is an illusion. You are not free. Freedom means doing what you want, and how you want with no one trying to obstruct your wishes. What I do to myself and my family is of no concern to anyone else on this planet, PERIOD! My only restriction is that I cannot harm, or steal from another person. As an American citizen, my duty is to preserve that freedom and to fight with fervor anyone who tries to deny those freedoms, violent or not. Our government has decided what we can do, say or feel. The morality police of this country have dictated what we are allowed to consume, watch and listen to. We are not free, we are subjects to the kingdom.

I listen to people complain about our country and our government, yet only about 40% of eligible voters actually vote. If you are that unhappy, then VOTE! And stop re-electing the same people! If you do not change the people in office, how can you change government? Those in office will say what you want to hear to keep themselves there.

Obama is now trying to tap into the OWS movement to further his election bid. Yet he was one of the ones who bailed out the banks. Sure GW started it, but Obama continued it. His latest job bill? WTF will that accomplish? Has he even been to a road or bridge construction site? I don't know about the rest of the country, but in NC 90% of that labor is hispanic. Not only that, but this jobs bill is only temporary. When the roads and bridges are fixed, then what? We don't need temporary jobs, we need full time careers!

Now I don't pretend to know all of the answers, but I do know that what we have been doing since 1933 has not worked. We went from a new nation in the late 1700's to a world power by the late 1800's. We did it without a Federal Reserve or Wall Street. We did it without being told what we could consume, watch or listen to. If it was good enough for our forefathers, then it is good enough for me. It's time we took back our freedoms, kicked out the legislators who did this to us and start living the lives we were intended to live, guaranteed by the Constitution!

reply to post by haarvik


I do not agree that it failed. That implies no hope give up it's over. You say it failed then instruct the 60% of us who do not vote to vote so things can change.

Failure no! Going down the wrong road yes!

Socialist revolution is upon us, but it always is during bad economic times. The unemployed always have time to protest, the employed do not. The unemployed want what they do not have, money and jobs. So the demand it when they can not get it. The real poor of NYC are not attending the protests in NYC, they are trying to survive. The protestors and socialist revolutionaries are not the same, but the latter is using the former.

reply to post by OathKeeper


Ahh, but is has failed. Can you partake of any substance you so choose? Can you distill your own alcohol? Can you pay for a prostitute? No to all of these, and many more examples. Sure, these are extreme but it just goes to show that you are not truly free. You are a subject of the kingdom, and subject to it's laws and restrictions on how you live your life. You are bound by the will of the morality police who decide what you can watch on TV, what is said and what is consumed. You are held hostage to a set of codes that dictate what you can or cannot do to your own home. When I cannot change my own furnace out of fear of being fined and/or jailed, then something very wrong is going on.

Now, does this mean all hope is lost? Only if our citizens keep bickering about what is right/wrong. It's not for us to decide or dictate. Our citizens must return government to the entity it was intended to be. If we fail to do that, then yes it will fail and all hope will be lost.

I do agree that govts have and will restrict our freedoms, but if you look on the other side of the coin, society has helped make that happen. Behind the scenes there are far too many citizens complaining about goods for sale, shows on tv, etc etc prompting a lot of this censorship to be put into place.

While everyone is complaining about wanting their "rights" back....do you not realize that in doing that you're actually adding to the censorship.

As you want the "right" to watch whatever you want on tv...there is someone on the other side of the fence wanting the "right" to be able to watch tv with their child without having swearing, nudity and violence involved.

While you're wanting the "right" to buy whatever you want with your money...there is someone on the other side of the fence wanting that same item removed from stores because it is racist, or politically incorrect or unsafe.

While you're complaining about paying too much in taxes,someone on the other side asking that their college education be paid for (how will the govt do that?....by raising our taxes).

This cry for freedom and rights is a vicious circle that will never get resolved because there are too many on either side of the fence.

That's my opinion anyhow.

Michelle

reply to post by Michelle129th


You make good points, however it is those points that are to blame for this. If you don't want your child to watch it, then turn the channel. If you don't like what others want to purchase, then don't purchase it or don't patronize the store that carries it. We have a choice and it should be just that, our choice. No one else should be able to exercise their choice for everyone else.

Now I don't agree with alot of things. Racism, illegal substances, etc. However I do recognize that as adults we should have the freedom to choose it if we so wish. As an American it is my duty to fight for those freedoms whether I agree with them or not. To do other wise is contrary to what our founding principals are. You can't legislate morality. You can't restrict freedom of choice.

What some of you guys call freedom is anarchy.

I don't want my neighbor installing a furnace because he has the RIGHT to but because he is accredited to and knows what he is doing. You have the right to learn how to install a furnace and apply for the license or permit to do so.

I don't want my neighbor building a meth lab because they tend to explode. I don't want un regulated food products on the store shelves, I like my coffee free of narcotics and pathogens.

I don't want driving to be a right but I want it as a privilege, you have the right to earn the privilege by learning to drive and you lose it by running people over.

I don't want anyone to have the right to drive drunk.

Now yes we are defiantly OVER regulated. But to do what you want when you want no matter what, that's anarchy.

As long as you do not cause harm or limit the rights of another you should be able to do as you please. But there are many ways to cause harm ie. Driving drunk, letting me install a furnace (or anything for that matter), or putting crazy stuff in my food (yes I know floride in water chemtrail in the sky, ect ect that's not this topic).

reply to post by OathKeeper


Ahh, but since when does passing a test make someone more qualified to install a furnace than a guy who has done it for 10 years? I owned an HVAC company for 10 years. I installed an average of 300 furnaces a year. Yet when licensing came into play I had to pass a test in order to continue. In 10 years not one incident, so I guess I know what I am doing. If someone doesn't, and puts one in, then that is natures way of weeding out the morons. You call it anarchy, I call it freedom. And yes, we did operate that way for over 100 years. We grew in strength and numbers. Nature weeded out the stupid ones and we prospered. I see nothing wrong with returning to that. It obviously worked.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by Michelle129th

 

You make good points, however it is those points that are to blame for this. If you don't want your child to watch it, then turn the channel. If you don't like what others want to purchase, then don't purchase it or don't patronize the store that carries it. We have a choice and it should be just that, our choice. No one else should be able to exercise their choice for everyone else.

Now I don't agree with alot of things. Racism, illegal substances, etc. However I do recognize that as adults we should have the freedom to choose it if we so wish. As an American it is my duty to fight for those freedoms whether I agree with them or not. To do other wise is contrary to what our founding principals are. You can't legislate morality. You can't restrict freedom of choice.

That is exactly my point. Everyone is blaming the govt (which, yes...does have some culpability in this)...but in reality it's your neighbour, friend, coworker, family member that has caused the "lack of freedoms" you feel you're being exposed to. The leaders will do what's in their own best interest to keep themselves in office..which is to bow to complaints from the public. My point is, I feel, that we as a society have caused this lack of freedoms rather than just, and only the govt.

Of course we have the choice to change channels...that makes complete sense to MOST of us. But somewhere along the lines someone with too much time on their hands, or the need to debate/argue/picket/rally/demonstrate has decided that that choice will not be made properly by the rest of society and they should save us from ourselves. If everyone just minded their own business and did what was best for their own families..rather than decide what's best for ALL of us....we would have a freer society.

Michelle

reply to post by Michelle129th


Kudos!

Exactly my point, and I have been saying this for years! Quit worrying about what someone else is doing and mind your own business. If everyone did that, we would get our freedoms back!

reply to post by haarvik


So you do not really object to having to know what you are doing but the methods we determine one is qualified. I think really we agree, it's just that you fail to look at the root causes and just blame the rule makers, not the rules and their methods of being chosen.

An individual is not qualified to judge him or herself. His peers must judge, and maybe that judgment should be based on skills and not test passing. Target the methods, don't blame the method mAkers, cause that is us.

While I agree with much of what you are saying, we must stop and realize that many of the laws and regulations have come about because some one has used their "freedom" to take away another person's rights. The paperwork and regulations came about because some of these so called morons, did not take themselves out, however took away someone's life or means to earn a living. Many years ago our law makers stopped using any level of common sense and instead starting pandering to special interest groups.

Laws and regulations are needed, however some level of common sense needs to be applied, and I think most on here could agree with that statement.

reply to post by OathKeeper


Actually, I object to anyone telling me what I can or cannot do with my own property. If I want to put a new bathroom in, then that is my business. If I want to put electricity in my garage, that is my business. If I don't know what I am doing, eventually I will get bit and probably die. That too is my problem. Imagine if there had been regulations and licenses for people like Ben Franklin or Thomas Edison or Tesla. Where do you think we would be today? There are people who have created marvelous inventions, who were simply curious amateurs. Imagine the inventions we would not have if it weren't for those unlicensed law breakers?

Originally posted by haarvik
What I do to myself and my family is of no concern to anyone else on this planet, PERIOD! My only restriction is that I cannot harm, or steal from another person.

It absolutely is other people's business.

A person carrying out an act isn't always going to be the best person to judge whether that action is harmful or not. Someone may think that it's OK to regularly beat their child to ''toughen him up'', and not see the harm that such beatings would cause. Another man may rape his wife under the belief that the notion of rape within marriage is ''impossible''.

People have a tendency to ''justify'' carrying out the most horrific crimes, so it is necessarily that a more objective, outside view of the legitimacy or illegitmacy of an action or behaviour is attained, rather than relying on an individual - who could be in any state of mind, from rationally and emotionally attuned to dangerously deluded - to assess the rightfulness of their actions.

So, yes, what someone chooses to do to themselves and/or their family is definitely the business of other people and the wider community, as a whole.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


You apparently have not read the entire thread, hence your post. I stated earlier that as long as it does not harm anyone. Child abuse and rape are crimes, period. Freedom does not give you the right to attack other persons. My post about me and my family were intended to mean that if I choose to, for example, let my 16 year old watch an R rated movie with boobies in it, then that is my business. If I choose to allow my 16 year old to partake in a glass of wine on special occasions, then that is my business. You are most likely the nosy neighbor who can't stand the thought of someone doing something you either can't or don't agree with. Your kind is what has caused this mess. Try actually reading what is posted before jumping to conclusions.

If it has failed, it is simply a function of the people not following the parameters of the experiment.

A nation like this started rather radical and must maintain a fairly high percentage of radicalism in order to continue. Prosperity has brought complacency many many decades ago and complacency has prevented interest in forming.

People don't care, even now. Regardless of what people say, people don't generally care. Those that do rail about things that are not the causes of the problems and propose non-solutions that will do nothing at best.

There are a handful that get it, but it's small and they are unclouded by the nonsense that is presented as wisdom or knowledge. There isn't any real way to revolt now and maintain what the founders wanted us to have.

Peace
KJ

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes

 

You apparently have not read the entire thread, hence your post. I stated earlier that as long as it does not harm anyone. .

Excuse me but someone putting electricity in their basement, such as myself, is in fact and substance a harm to someone else.

Are you sure you want you neighbor the Inventer experimenting with nuclear fuel rods?! I absolutely disagree with the individuals ability to judge his skills and qualifications. You are not qualified to install a furnace, teach karate, practice medicine, install a deck, do my taxes, teach my child because you say so.

You want the unregulated freedom to burn down your own house by improperly installing electricity. You also end up causing a forest fire, killing a sleeping family, and costing the fire department money to put it all right. I then get a guy who says he is a lawyer to sue you for torching my wife and kids and house and national forest and he argues it was your right to do what you wanted in this free country. I then fire him cause the dimwit doesnt know how to be a lawyer but just said he did.

Anyone out there who knows how to remove my wisdom teeth please let me know, screw the American dental association, I will take your word for it because you are free to practise dentistry because your free to do so, and why would you lie?

reply to post by OathKeeper


But that is free market. That is freedom. If you are naive enough to believe someone without first checking their credentials then you too must be weeded out by natural selection. I'm sure Edison's neighbors were not thrilled with him messing around with electricity. I'm also sure people were not thrilled with Tesla's experiments either. If you want to use extremes, then I'm sure we can argue all day. I doubt in this day and age someone would be capable of obtaining nuclear fuel rods, so that argument is pure scaremongering. But you illustrate my point exactly. You worry about your neighbor and what they are doing instead of worrying about yourself. Live and let live. Be free or die a slave.

reply to post by haarvik


www.bbc.co.uk...

Dude it happens.... Sweed tries his own homemade nuke experiment.

Who is to supply the credentials and validate them? In our current case it's the government and accredited organizations, schools ect. With whom do you replace that validity check with?

reply to post by OathKeeper


Well, his stupidity. Also failure of customs to check incoming packages into his country for illegal substances. Still doesn't change the fact that our country was founded on freedom. That means everything and the consequences that come with it.

Originally posted by haarvik
You apparently have not read the entire thread, hence your post. I stated earlier that as long as it does not harm anyone. Child abuse and rape are crimes, period.

I did read all of your OP, hence my post.

I know you stated ''as long as it doesn't harm anyone'', which is the point I was rejecting. Who says what is harmful and what isn't on issues such as child abuse, where there is a blurry and fiercely contested line between what is an acceptable and what is an unacceptable level of physical or psychological discipline towards a child ?

Rape within marriage wasn't made illegal until relatively recently in most Western countries, and sex was considered one of a wife's ''duties'' that she agreed to upon entering matrimony. Presumably there were - and probably still are - many people who considered it not harmful to rape their spouse.

This is why somebody's business is other people's business, because not everyone can judge the legitimacy or harmfulness of their own behaviour without their own vested interests clouding their judgement.

Originally posted by haarvik
Freedom does not give you the right to attack other persons. My post about me and my family were intended to mean that if I choose to, for example, let my 16 year old watch an R rated movie with boobies in it, then that is my business. If I choose to allow my 16 year old to partake in a glass of wine on special occasions, then that is my business.

How about letting your 8-year-old son watch an R rated movie ? Or if you choose to let your 6-year-old son partake in a couple of beers on special occasions ?

It's all very well citing reasonable examples, but your argument doesn't hold because it can be logically extended to include harmful examples, such as giving young children too much beer and letting them watch hardcore porn.

Originally posted by haarvik
You are most likely the nosy neighbor who can't stand the thought of someone doing something you either can't or don't agree with. Your kind is what has caused this mess.

It's got nothing to do with nosiness, and everything to do making sure that other people - and in particular, the vulnerable - are protected from potential harm in an environment which is governed by a single person, whose mental state may be far from fit to make appropriate, considered and morally reasonable judgements.

Originally posted by haarvik
Try actually reading what is posted before jumping to conclusions.

I did read your post, and you come across as one of these selective ''mah rights'' proponents with an unwarranted sense of entitlement. One of the types who uses a ''mind your own business'' argument to justify doing anything they want, while not heeding their own words when it comes to things they find personally disagreeable. The sort who will whinge about people ''pushing their morality down my throat'' while not realising that they are doing the same.