Why do people believe in redistrubution of wealth and more taxes for the rich?

They say tax the rich more.... I say why punish someone for their hard work and risk taking to establish a business?

They say sooner or later you can make too much money...... I say who is to decide what too much is? Who are YOU to decide how much is too much? I'm not wealthy by any stretch, but I do not begrudge anyone for the money they earn.

They say the rich get richer and the poor get poorer because those amoral rich bastards have moved their businesses over seas...... I say who are you to tell me where I can and cannot build my product? I also say if your union did not insist, sometimes violently so, that your wages and bennies cost me so much, i may have kept these jobs in the US. The unions have had a hand in jobs moving overseas.

They say those lousy corporate bastards dont pay any taxes......I say that is because the congress and prez we elected have written and enacted tax laws which allow them to not pay any taxes. GE is in bed with the Obama administration. Imelt is on the jobs commision. He is building a new plant in Brazil. How is the leader of a country who is moving jobs over seas on the president's job commision?

They say the tax system is unfair...... I agree. We should have a flat tax where EVERYONE pays their fair share regardless of income....no loop holes, no deductions, and no credits.

They say the rich should use their excess to help the poor. Its a moral obligation..... I say based on what standard....Christian? Humanist? Muslim? Jewish? Hindu? America is the MOST generous nation on earth. We give and give and give some more. We send millions if not billions to help those in need all over the globe, but do not tell me I have an obligation to give my hard earned money to someone else just cuz I have a little and they do not. You want to help the poor? Elect people who will enact laws friendly to business creation and quit paying union dues so the union leaders can retire wealthy. It works both ways.

There is so much more, and both sides of the issue have valid arguments. But one thing is sure.....business is business. Business men will do what ever they can to ensure the survival of their business, even if it means moving overseas and leaving Americans unemployed. Thats just a fact of life. IMO they were forced overseas in
order to stay in business.

The biggest problem we face is that we have allowed ourselves to change from a government for, of and by the people to government TO the people.

reply to post by Hugues de Payens



What risks do the wealthy take?

Most demand guaranteed profit form the contracts they get from the government.

I guess you mean the risks the "too big to fail" guys face, right?

I don't recall Donald Trump ever being homeless or hungry despite going bankrupt multiple times.

So show me the hard work and the risks the world's billionaires and multimillionaires are facing.

When your business depends upon the protection of the military I pay for, the harbor facilities my tax dollars built, the road networks my gas taxes maintain and the myriad of other shared resources you are taking advantage of, I do believe I have a right to have a say in how and where you conduct your business.

If you want to build stuff in other countries and employ those folks, feel free to move there and abide by their laws and use their resources: you ain't welcome here.

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by Indigo5

 

What about the others? Are the Walton family all immoral and unethical?

You are talking about the people that are killing local Americana, have unethical business practices and treat employees like dirt?

Those Waltons? You just totally discredited yourself IMHO. :shk:

reply to post by gwydionblack


I think if more of the rich people were like 50cent for example. Maybe less people would be annoyed with them. He is very open about where his money goes and hosts a whole ton of benefits. Such as his current one Street King and if you do not know what this is go take a look at it. Just for clicking the "like" button on his Street King FB page it buys a meal for hungry child. I don't know this to me is a good distribution of his wealth along with the other things he has done over the years in New York.

This is my opinion on some of these things. Why do a lot of people with money tend to not donate to charities or host benefits to help others? Yea there are a few, but you most do not they horde there money when in reality they could be helping people who have nothing. I am not talking just in the US I am talking around the world.

reply to post by gwydionblack

Why should their tax burden be any more than anyone else? Why shouldn't everyone be paying, say, 25% and call it a day?

A penalty for negotiating a better salary than my neighbor I also do not agree with, but the number you propose seems extreme as well. How much of our money goes to foreign aid, the UN etc.? The tax code is one of many problems affecting us i'm sure you will agree.

reply to post by apacheman


People who start new businesses take a very high risk in starting a company. Ask the founders of Microsoft, Apple, and yes I know Steve Jobs has passed away, Henry Ford, Collis Huntington, or any other person who has started a business what kind of risk they had to take, financially and personally, to start their business.

They'll say, yea but most rich folk out there didnt start a business, they inherited their money or became the head of a company...... I say OK, but again who are YOU to decide how much these people make or what they should do with their money. Its none of your business....period.

Haha, I aint welcomed here? By whose standards? Dude Im American by birth and southern by the grace of God, and I aint going anywhere. You can take your progessive socialism away from me.

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by RealAmericanPatriot

 

if the government switched to a flat tax, the highest earners would rejoice.
using your suggested 12%, the poorest taxpayers would pay much more in taxes. The rich would make out like bandits.

take these two examples:
Guy makes $25,000. Currently, his taxes would be as follows:
Income $25,000
Standard deduction $5,700
Dependent Deduction $3,650
Taxable income $15,650
Tax: $1,929.
This doesn't take Earned Income Credit into consideration but, odds are, the actual tax would be less.


New Method:
Taxable $25,000
Tax @ 12% - $3,000

About a 50% increase.


Rich Guy:

Salary: $400,000
Standard Deduction: $5,700
Dependent/Exemption Deduction $3,650
Taxable Income $390,650
Tax: $$114,371

Flat Tax
Salary: $400,000
Tax @ 12% $48,000

Savings of $66,371. roughly 60% decrease in tax.


So, let's see, the poor pay more, the rich pay less and the gov't gets even fewer tax dollars.


The only way to "fix" the system is to leave the brackets alone and add one, or two more, for the highest level of earners.

Personally, I think the goverment should also add a corporate payroll tax so that, any employee that receives a bonus that is at least 50% of their annual salary, results in a corporate tax that charges an additional amount based on the overage. It might result in corporations paying smaller bonuses. Excessive salary taxes should also be added. A CEO doesn't need to make $50,000,000 a year or more. It's nonsensical and that money could be used for other things, or distributed to shareholders.

There is nothing wrong with being fair.
It should not be a tax on wages.
That is unconstitutional however a fair tax will work.
www.fairtax.org...

www.constitution.org...

reply to post by gwydionblack


Because there are enough resources on this planet for everyone to be happy. Unfortunately, for basically everyone in the world, a small number of people hoard the resources and let the rest suffer.

It's not good, no matter how you slice it.

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by RealAmericanPatriot

 

if the government switched to a flat tax, the highest earners would rejoice.
using your suggested 12%, the poorest taxpayers would pay much more in taxes. The rich would make out like bandits.

take these two examples:
Guy makes $25,000. Currently, his taxes would be as follows:
Income $25,000
Standard deduction $5,700
Dependent Deduction $3,650
Taxable income $15,650
Tax: $1,929.
This doesn't take Earned Income Credit into consideration but, odds are, the actual tax would be less.


New Method:
Taxable $25,000
Tax @ 12% - $3,000

About a 50% increase.


Rich Guy:

Salary: $400,000
Standard Deduction: $5,700
Dependent/Exemption Deduction $3,650
Taxable Income $390,650
Tax: $$114,371

Flat Tax
Salary: $400,000
Tax @ 12% $48,000

Savings of $66,371. roughly 60% decrease in tax.


So, let's see, the poor pay more, the rich pay less and the gov't gets even fewer tax dollars.


The only way to "fix" the system is to leave the brackets alone and add one, or two more, for the highest level of earners.

Personally, I think the goverment should also add a corporate payroll tax so that, any employee that receives a bonus that is at least 50% of their annual salary, results in a corporate tax that charges an additional amount based on the overage. It might result in corporations paying smaller bonuses. Excessive salary taxes should also be added. A CEO doesn't need to make $50,000,000 a year or more. It's nonsensical and that money could be used for other things, or distributed to shareholders.

Your statements baffle me. Your ok with using tax as a penalty to discourage us from success it seems. Do you really think the govt has a legitimate need for our money? National defense, infrastructure and so on is fine. But if you look at the creation of certain govt departments and our spending on things like mosquito nets in Central Africa, you can start to see what an utter failure those have been.

I recall reading that to obtain a corp charter to operate in the US, you had to demonstrate that WE would benefit from that activity, product or whatever it may be. Good, moral, ethical business practices....what happened?

reply to post by type0civ


Or Two BILLION dollars to Brazil to help them develop off shore oil drilling when our oil companies cannot drill off our coast. Hmmmmm.

reply to post by gwydionblack


Because half of the people are lazy and expect mom and dad (then the government and anyone else) to take care of them. I am by no means rich and have never asked (nor given) a dime by anyone else after I moved out of my parents house 25 years ago. I would never accept nor expect anything from a "rich" person who either by hardwork or family inheretance, happens to have more than me. We're in our individual situations by fate. You can affect your own fate by working hard, staying healthy and taking advantage of situations presented to you during your lifetime. But it's all a roll of the dice. If you are meant to be rich by taking the easy road, then you'll hit the lottery and not piss it away.

Because alot of people don't realise that alot of the wealthy people didn't start life that way but decided at a very young age that they wanted to be rich and worked hard and spotted and took advantage of opportunities.

There is a mentality of " I want some of that but I don't want to do anyting to obtain it and if I can't have it I don't want you to have it either".

There's a guy in Australia who years ago realised that men are more likely to visit a sex shop than women but women are the ones who are more likely to buy sex toys.. So he developed an online sex shop aimed at women and now he's a multi millionaire. This is the kind of person most of the non wealthy who protest hate just because he has mega money when others don't.


Get a plan. Get working hard at that plan. And stop blaming the wealthy for troubles.

Originally posted by SPACEYstranger
reply to post by gwydionblack

 

Because there are enough resources on this planet for everyone to be happy. Unfortunately, for basically everyone in the world, a small number of people hoard the resources and let the rest suffer.

It's not good, no matter how you slice it.

The sad part about it is that, although what you say is true, that's the way the world works. Always has and always will. There will never be an earthly government, run by men, that will ensure the happiness of each and every person under its governance.....never. There will always be winners and losers. Shouldnt that be an incentive to those of us not born with a silver spoon in our mouths?

reply to post by gwydionblack


Because all the corporatiosns that have all the big bucks get way more tax breaks and benefits than Jo Blo who won the entire sum of say corporation Y thru lottery.

Even if he was to recieve the money in the same increments as the corporation in question - Since Jo Blo is just a person, and does not have an ABN or own a company - he is penalised.


The average person works what, 37.5 hours a week. If a person works a 50 hour week, say because 3 staff quit or an illness and the overtime was required, the government then takes MORE THAN 50c OUT OF EVERY DOLLAR from that overtime pay.


The system is setup to keep people like you, and i within a certain bracket. Nomatter how many jobs they take, or hours they work, they just get penalised for the more hours they do via tax. Corporations get tax breaks, policy's or loopholes which allow them to retain alot more money per hour worked, including in overtime, than Mr Jo Blo gets.


So to begin with, the playing field is uneven


After that - lets take a look at buisness practices. Let's take a childs Toy Tonka Truck for example.
If we made a list, and tally'd up how many materials, tools and time it would take to manufacture a single Truck, you'd come up with a price of around $5-10. Add shipping and a fair retail market and you shuold have a price around $20 no?

You go to the store, and there's the Tonka Truck. What's the price tag? $60-80?

Why is this?

Greed. Long are gone the day's of working out costs for manufacturing, labor, parts, transport and adding some to the top to pay the store staff then some cash in hand for the seller to put into the bank. Numbers are pulled out of the air based on "how much they think the consumer will pay".


Prices for the items and services supplied by the Corporations, realy are being pulled out of a baboon's ass


Then we take a look at other items in the market. A farmer, who labors all day, and wether he gets the money in his hand to feed his family all depends on luck. Yet this farmer is producing our lifeblood. Without him, and others like him, we would all starve. Why is some pompus arsehole that manages fictional numbers at a stock exchange getting treated like a demigod and paid millions, while the person that doses the necessary work to ensure we can stay alive gets treated like #, and paid even less than #?


Because corporations make you believe that things like HDTV, dolly magazines, and videogames are more important, and worth more than what keeps us alive


Now let's take a look at the actual running of a buisness.

How many corners are cut, rules broken, and people suffer at the hands of corporations that dump waste into the enviroment, or pay to have it dumped in 3rd world countries to avoid having to pay to have it disposed from enviromentaly. The safety issues for things rushed into production for a quick buck, and the lives are lost or ruined by people whom abuse ethics and rules.


Its not profitale to be safe, enviromentaly friendly or good for you



And finaly - When you have the equivilant of Scrooge's bank, and can physicaly jump off a diving board into a pool of $100 bills, have more money to provide for you're buisness, and you're family, you're grandchildren, and their childrens children - what is the need for having even more?

Becuase power is like a drug. As the world currently views it, money is power, and any other source of power, wether it be guns, power plants, is regulated by someone to ensure they do not abuse their power

Yet the rich keep doing the same stuff, ripping off the same people, dumping their waste in the same countries, taking the same shortcuts which cause people to get hurt, AND get taxed less for the whole lot purely because they have a suit and tie and are a Corporation.




So you have two answers to you're question OP.


One is - Why should somene have or need more money than they can ever use in their family's lifetime? Yes - im taking into account the money they get from running buisnesses, and money put away in the bank for safe keepings - but the trillions of excess - realy? What is the need other than greed?


and secondly.

Why do people whom break the rules, and get an unfair tax advantage over everyone else - be allowed to be treated like this - which essentialy seperates them into an "elite" class that is favored more by people of power (politicians etc) than the people whom work their asses off for the company's in the first place?

Originally posted by Connman
I just signed this on the matter of the Rich not paying taxes as the average American has to. I`m not for them paying more as you say but paying the same as required to the working class.
[SNIPPED LINK]

Now it would be nice if these filthy rich that there is no reason they need that much money couldn`t pay their employees better then what is required by law. That is where I start to look down at the rich you see. They wouldnt be rich if they didn't`t have the slaves working for them.

Take my old boss as an example. Multi millionaire tells me there is no man worth more then $10 an hour yet he cuts himself and wife both checks for time spent at the business that exceeds that $10 cap he made. How is that man able to sleep?

edit on 10/18/2011 by tothetenthpower because: Mod Edit--Snip

Sounds like he can sleep because he, and his wife who buys into that bilge is a greedy selfish bastard. A classic example of those who think "who, tax me how dare you, hey I paid good money for the guy in office dammit! Why should I have to fork over more at my God for sake n income then some poor guy making $10.00? Do you know how much I actually have to make, be it in not necessarily "doing anything constructive" as in provided goods or services, but in tax sheltered annuities, and off shore accounts, and any other way I can play a shell game with my money so by the time the government CAN find it, its already been moved someplace else? Lets just say it takes a lot to keep a lot.

Don't have any problem with people who make money keeping as much as possible. That is proportional to their ability to pay for the things government needs to do, like pay for emergency services, clean water, defense, education, etc. Sure there are idiots in government, seems to attract them in some cases, but thats mostly for those who have to sell their Sol to get elected. I know, there are civil servants who aren't the best either, but what do you want? Some one has to pay for the things government has to pay for one way or another. When I was younger (and a lot healthier, just for the record before I got ALS) I had a company that paid people really well, and I paid for all the insurance for my employees, themselves and dependents. They had nothing taken out of their check they had a co-pay to see the doctor, and for each Rx. But that was it. (We had dental insurance too, anyone who has teeth will tell you in the U.S. dental care is really expensive.) We even offered "domestic partner" benefits at a time when you had to sit someone down and explain what that meant. Why? Because I could, and thought it was the right thing to do. We had people waiting months just to get an interview with us.

The greatest possibility comes from where true wealth is and always will be, the potential of each individual. Those who can do more should. Those who can't? Do what we we can so they also can, in time. I never made as much money myself as I could have, far from it. Poor? Don't count on it.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

So does that mean our corporate executives will work for the same scales as executives elsewhere?

Say merely 20x the average worker's salary as opposed to 150x-453x some of them rake in now?

What we will see is that serfdum never left, it just changed shape. There will still be executives making huge sums of money while everyone else not in the club will be poor. If it went down that road...

The reason I stated what I did is to try and make some of the die-hard enemies of "communism" who swear the jobs left because of taxes, aware of what REALLY happened.

What must happen is the next great innovation must be in transportation and the erasure of borders. So someone can live in China, work in S. America and be home every night after work. This is necessary because since the economy has gone global, the workforce must also go global.

The jobs will NEVER return to America because true to the market, it's cheaper to employ labor in India than America. The only other option that could buy us time is if some innovation came along that was patented to America alone and made it necessary to build factories here to manufacture. Other than that...the "bubble" of luxury we were all accustomed to living on has burst and we have to rejoin the rest of the world.

Originally posted by newcovenant



How much of that money is then returned to them in the form of loop holes and entitlements?

Can you give a few examples of rich entitlements and loop holes? 29% is what their end pay percent is. I'm not aware of getting things after you pay...

Originally posted by Hugues de Payens
They say tax the rich more.... I say why punish someone for their hard work and risk taking to establish a business?

They say sooner or later you can make too much money...... I say who is to decide what too much is? Who are YOU to decide how much is too much? I'm not wealthy by any stretch, but I do not begrudge anyone for the money they earn.

They say the rich get richer and the poor get poorer because those amoral rich bastards have moved their businesses over seas...... I say who are you to tell me where I can and cannot build my product? I also say if your union did not insist, sometimes violently so, that your wages and bennies cost me so much, i may have kept these jobs in the US. The unions have had a hand in jobs moving overseas.

They say those lousy corporate bastards dont pay any taxes......I say that is because the congress and prez we elected have written and enacted tax laws which allow them to not pay any taxes. GE is in bed with the Obama administration. Imelt is on the jobs commision. He is building a new plant in Brazil. How is the leader of a country who is moving jobs over seas on the president's job commision?

They say the tax system is unfair...... I agree. We should have a flat tax where EVERYONE pays their fair share regardless of income....no loop holes, no deductions, and no credits.

They say the rich should use their excess to help the poor. Its a moral obligation..... I say based on what standard....Christian? Humanist? Muslim? Jewish? Hindu? America is the MOST generous nation on earth. We give and give and give some more. We send millions if not billions to help those in need all over the globe, but do not tell me I have an obligation to give my hard earned money to someone else just cuz I have a little and they do not. You want to help the poor? Elect people who will enact laws friendly to business creation and quit paying union dues so the union leaders can retire wealthy. It works both ways.

There is so much more, and both sides of the issue have valid arguments. But one thing is sure.....business is business. Business men will do what ever they can to ensure the survival of their business, even if it means moving overseas and leaving Americans unemployed. Thats just a fact of life. IMO they were forced overseas in
order to stay in business.

The biggest problem we face is that we have allowed ourselves to change from a government for, of and by the people to government TO the people.

Your mentality is very useful to the top 5. Unions have very, very little with jobs going over seas. Rather if they do, compare it to a thief who moves to a town of trusting, cripples. Since society would allow him to steal from them "he had no choice but to move somewhere he can".

Unions attempted to make things fair as possible and of course business fought this and paid millions to paint unions as bad guys.

Someone moving to avoid doing what's right is not given a pass by myself. Instead of helping America maintain its stature as the most prosperous nation ever............companies decided to take their ball and leave the playground. Since when has that child ever been defended and justified?

No matter though....just as that child who takes his ball and goes to another spot, these companies will find that the countries they choose to employ will eventually begin to play in the same manner as America. Unions will eventually form THERE and where will they run then?

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

Saying people, and I assume you are referring to the OWS guys and gals, are demanding the rich pay MORE is a cop out of an argument, they aren't saying that at all, well, the actual intelligent people aren't, but they don't get airtime only the morons do.

I agree. OWS is not about "hating" all rich people. I believe Cenk from TheYoungTurks best presents a view in line with what the majority of us are angry about, as far as the taxing issue:



The people being raled against (in banking/in govt/in corporations) did NOT earn money and title through honest work and diligence—they clawed, thieved, bribed, bullied, lied, ruined lives, tortured, promoted rascist and illegal ideological wars that have killed hundreds of thousands, and overall thoroughly corrupted their path to power while attempting to diminish our own power.

The concept of Capitalism in theory is not particularly a bad thing—just one of many economic ideologies. How it is implemented is, like any other “ism”, what forms its character. There is nothing wrong with making a decent profit—the keyword being decent. But the very nature of Capitalism demands that regulations and oversight KEEP it decent, fair, free of corruption and human/environmental destruction, morally responsible, and ethically competitive. What we have witnessed over the last 20-50 years is NOT a decent, regulated capitalism playing by the rules—it has become a ruthless, greedy, control-freaking oligarchy; a global monster mixed with fascist elements.

Many thousands are angry about a myriad of issues but having followed this movement almost 24/7 since Sep 17, a great majority agree that it is the rabid corruption that can be traced to specific Wall Street bankers and corporations who bought our government for their own greed and avarice.

Our treasury was pilfered in 2008 and that money needs to be given back so people can have here lives back. After that, IMHO, the first order of business should be to end the Federal Reserve.

Originally posted by DZAG Wright


Place three people in a room. They work for you, you pay one $100 per hour, the other $50 per hour and the last you pay nothing. How much money does the last guy have to pay you rent with?

Money is finite.....if you OWN 99% you should be responsible for 99%.

But then the guy who has zero says hey I want a bigger place and I want someone else to pay for it.....