Why do people believe in redistrubution of wealth and more taxes for the rich?

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


But it's not just about taxes. It's important to understand that. It has become easier for corporations and the wealthy to make money through non-productive means (like gambling on Wall Street). The minority have created the rules to allow this to happen and as we learned, if things go wrong, they look to their bought-and-paid-for polticians to bail them out. Why risk investing in manufacturing when you can make more money 'playing the markets'? Send jobs overseas, make more money. Offshore tax havens, avoid tax liability. More profit. It's not just about taxes. It's about fair competition, a level economic playing field and accountability.

reply to post by gwydionblack
Why?
Because it's easier to steal than it is to work.

Social justice
Wealth redistribution

Call it what you want. But it all comes down to taking something from someone else, simply because they have it.

reply to post by Crakeur


You are assuming the "rich" are actually paying the full percentage now. I am not going to link to any solid data but I think we can all agree the rich are NOT paying the full percentages and are using loopholes and accounting tricks to pay LESS. In some cases much much less. So in actuality 12% may be MORE than what the rich are able to get out of paying in taxes in some cases.

As for the poor people paying more.. well.. the way I look at it do they use roads? Do they use public education? Do they get protected by the US military? Do they get police/fire protection? I'm fine with them paying a small percentage of whatever they make. EVERYONE HAS TO CHIP IN no matter how large or small. The beauty of America is there is nothing stopping you from making more of yourself if you want it. I grew up poor ($30k/year for a family of 6), I loaned 100% of my college education, worked part time while I attended, and now I enjoy a comfortable life. I don't understand what is stopping anyone from doing this IF THEY WANT IT.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

Trust me, there are people out there saying it. Not all, but they are there.

And I agree with you, there are plenty of loopholes in the system that should be remedied. However, as I understand it now, tax brackets in the United States range from 10% for a salary less than 8,500, and up to 35% for a salary $379,150 or greater.

This to me, is wrong as it stands. Perhaps they SHOULD be elegable for the loopholes simply because they are charged more than three times more the lowest taxed.

Why should their tax burden be any more than anyone else? Why shouldn't everyone be paying, say, 25% and call it a day?

Would a flat tax be fairer? lets say 10% for everyone? I would think about 70% of America who pay from 0 to well under 10% would be a little upset and the rich would be happy...very happy

I too don't really under stand how 35% of a million earned is equal to 5% of 50k earned.

Forty seven percent of the population does not pay taxes. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip, you can't get money from people that don't have it.

People hear stories about millionaires that don't pay any tax. I think that if you're rich, you should have to pay tax. Personally, I'd much rather see a flat tax. I think that it comes out to about 17%. That would apply to people who work for a living and also companies. Get rid of all the exemptions and special tax codes.

Make it simple, you make $100, you pay $17 to the government. You make $1,000,000 you pay $170,000 to the government. Your business makes $1,000,000 you pay $170,000 to the governemnt.

If you Exxon oil and you make $100,000,000,000 You pay $17,000,000,000 to the government.

Then, I don't thin that so many people would be upset.

reply to post by jjkenobi


There is some truth there. I came from a blue-collar family, paid for my own education, built a career and although I'm not in the 1%, I do ok compared to many. I probably pay more in taxes than most people on this board make. Although I agree that people can better themselves the playing field is anything but equitable. As long as the minority can pick up the phone and leverage their K Street lobbiest to influence some regulation, government contract or policy and then write-off the cost, we are not all playing by the same rules.

This is why I favor a consumption tax like the FairTax.

Before you scream that it is unfair to the poor, you need to research that the FairTax has a provision so that every CITIZEN gets a prebate each month equal to what a family at the poverty line would spend on the basic necessitites. So the poor get a small check each month that reimburses them for ALL of the taxes they spent on basic necessities. So does the rich guy. It's the same amount for each, based on the cost of basic necessities.

Then, you are only taxed on what you spend. You get 100% of your paycheck every month.

Rich Dude that spends a lot of money....PAYS a lot of taxes. You can't tell me the rich wouldn't spend spend spend...they would.

Before you tell me all of the problems with the FairTax, go here: FAQ about the FairTax I bet that many of your questions or perceived problems are addressed.

Herman Cain is a proponent of the FairTax. His 9-9-9 plan would be something he could institute RIGHT AWAY (using the current laws). Then, he would push to implement the FairTax. It would take years for it to be implemented, because of the income tax amendment, which would have to be repealed.

The FairTax would make America an economic powerhouse again.

Originally posted by Frogs
So, what do we do? I've just made the best decisions I could make for my business. Do we take my wealth and give it to the people I used to employee in the US - or do we change the rules to make it the best business decision to hire in the US again?

The dicision to move was baced on profits. In the end though the market is still the US economy, in this case, in which to sell the goods. Eventually that market is going to flounder. It sounds to me like the government and the manufacturers didnt see the long turn good in protecting this econmomy nor did the consumers by paying more for good products to keep their factory jobs.

Have auto prices gone down or even remained the same as was porposed by farming out so much of the industry? Not only have these product prices gone up but people are losing thier jobs. Been going on for decades. Capitalist have always dreamed of a cheep or even slave labor pool. Just look at the slave holding south......why pay a white man a good wage when you can get a slave to do it for nothing? And even after the war when blacks started moving into northern industrial cites. Why pay a white man a fair wage when we can get blacks to work for almost nothing. Now its the poor chinese and mexicans. Why pay ANYBODY in the US a good wage when the chinese and mexican wll do it for much much less. And at the root of all this is the almight "profit margin". Its just not the responsibility of the profit driven to consider anything but profit. But god forbid that a laboring man would see his labor as a profitable asset or something that can be negotiated like any other cost of doing business. This is why a full 1/3 of the american population is a dumbed down unorganized, hand to mouth, patronized, debt ridden, collection of meat based mechines, fruit trees free for the picking and led about by their egyptian task master demanding bricks without straw! And more of them!

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by gwydionblack

 

Why should the rich be charged any more in taxes, simply because they make more money?

See, that's where you are confused. Tax should be proportionate, and the US tax code allows for tax breaks and loop holes for the extremely wealthy, while not providing any of those breaks for people who actually need them. The IRS has scaled back their corporate tax fraud section and has increased the audits for people of middle or lower class.

Right on! Thats where the money is.....the striving middle class. The are also the most under represented group in the US.

Originally posted by wildtimes

So, you DO understand. There is a huge problem when those that have way way WAY more than they could ever need do NOTHING to help those who are starving and homeless and unemployed.

The biggest negative to a flat tax is it will basically kill charitable donations. The rich do give... your view of a scrooge type person is really very few out there, AND those few really would not make a difference, AND who are we to tell anyone they need to help. Helping is a personal choice.

Be careful when you suggest an amount that is too much....we see Obama wanted to set it at anything over 250k...that can easily be 50k too.

Their greed leads them to hire slave-wage workers in developing countries rather than their own country-men. They line the pockets of the lawmakers so that they get away with "cheating" the system. They are not held accountable for their insider trading (for that matter neither are the lawmakers who heads-up them on what laws will be passed) and evasion.

Well kind of.

Companies make profit, want to make profit, and not just for the few rich in the company. They can have 1000s/10,000s/100,000s owning their stock etc that want to see profit. Corporations in America pay the highest taxes in the world. Many states/unions force unacceptable terms for companies to make profit. Just look at Boeing who wanted to open a plant in a right to work state and they were attacked by unions and our Government not too. I can see that plant going overseas...we created this issue that you speak of.

The fair system would be a flat tax -- but not 25%, that's too much. 15%.

When you talk flat tax you are talking about all Americans right? As stated before the top 1% average tax paid is 29%, I think a 8 to 12% tax is something they would have a party over where the other 99% would see their pay check get smaller.

reply to post by beezzer


The tax breaks were predicated on the premise that they'd use the extra cash to spur innovation, create jobs but since both have obviously yet to occur this is a scam as they have gone back on that very deal so guess what? No jobs and no innovation means no more tax breaks. Innovation has been stifled. No jobs have been created stateside so the myth that "No taxing the job creators" is a damn lie.

GE's major tax break was predicated upon the fact that they were going to use it to install Watts Stations to expand the electric car and EV movement but since GE hasn't put up one station they lied and means that their tax breaks are to be taken away.

.....redistrubution of wealth and more taxes for the rich?




i reckon that the general belief is that the rich have ill-gotten wealth...by any one of several methods...
fleecing the unwary, kissing butt on the way to the top, gaming the system, pact with the devil, walking on the backs of the righteous to get to the top, committing unethical deeds to get ahead, getting coifed for their hypocritical Sunday Sermon sessions

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by beezzer

 

The tax breaks were predicated on the premise that they'd use the extra cash to spur innovation, create jobs.....

Yea in China man in China! LOL. And to prop up the mexican economy.

Like many topics on ATS ,people on both sides of an issue refuse to listen see or read the opposing view and there for refuse to believe the other side.
And as usual you ask, like many do , why the opposing view sees thing differently , and then you refuse to hear it and understand it.

Life is not a game but we are all forced to play. The super wealthy control all aspects of the game and make and break the rules to suit them. They control the banks, all resources including water and power, they control the politicians at the city, county,state and federal level. They control the courts and how the laws are made. They control the military and the weapons, and they control jobs and taxes.
We are all human , we all have wants and disires ( love/wealth/power), we all have emotions (envy, lust , greed) then there are morals and ethics which many lack and see as a weakness.
We all would like to have an advantage in life if we could get it and those who have use it .
So in reality there is no Santa Clause and no level playingfield for the common man to compete.and that includes small businesses.

Think of money as water in the pump. That water drives different turbines, such as development, innovation and production. When said water ends up in deposits, less and less water is avaiable untill the circulation breaks down. Now when it comes to money, you can just print more and inject it in the system, which drives inflation and debt, or you can raise the taxes for those who have a lot of money sitting around uninvested.

Originally posted by jjkenobi
You are assuming the "rich" are actually paying the full percentage now. I am not going to link to any solid data but I think we can all agree the rich are NOT paying the full percentages and are using loopholes and accounting tricks to pay LESS. In some cases much much less. So in actuality 12% may be MORE than what the rich are able to get out of paying in taxes in some cases.

and you are assuming that everyone in the upper brackets pays far less than what they should be paying. with the exception of the few that you hear about from time to time, most people pay taxes at or near the level they should be in. Yes, there are some folks who make a ton of money and pay very little in tax but, for the most part, they are paying and it is more than 12% so the majority of these people would embrace a flat tax. The poorer portion would suffer even more and then what?

Originally posted by jjkenobi

As for the poor people paying more.. well.. the way I look at it do they use roads? Do they use public education? Do they get protected by the US military? Do they get police/fire protection? I'm fine with them paying a small percentage of whatever they make. EVERYONE HAS TO CHIP IN no matter how large or small. The beauty of America is there is nothing stopping you from making more of yourself if you want it. I grew up poor ($30k/year for a family of 6), I loaned 100% of my college education, worked part time while I attended, and now I enjoy a comfortable life. I don't understand what is stopping anyone from doing this IF THEY WANT IT.

the reasons they don't go out and make money will vary, depending on who you ask. Each case is different.

In my opinion, our society is such that people put pride above needs and as a result, they will say they cannot find work because nobody's hiring them for their desired job and they haven't bothered to look at other sources of income that they deem beneath them.

reply to post by Xtrozero

AND who are we to tell anyone they need to help. Helping is a personal choice.

Wow. So, you see someone in desperate need of help, and the "first responder" theory should not be applied?

Be careful when you suggest an amount that is too much....we see Obama wanted to set it at anything over 250k...that can easily be 50k too.

Well, considering that my combined household income is currently ZIP, as in NADA, NOTHING, NONE and ZERO, and we are living off of carefully saved "retirement" money until such time as the companies that went overseas come back and hire honest Americans, I don't feel like I need to be "careful".

As for "we" having created it, um, no.
I did not create it.
I hate it.

Yes, okay, helping is a personal choice ... one that ANY decent human being would make without being told to do so.

But that's just my kind-hearted, altruistic, idealistic personality.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1
There's an old joke.

Anecdotal dialogue
Churchill: Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?
Socialite: My goodness, Mr. Churchill… Well, I suppose… we would have to discuss terms, of course…
Churchill: Would you sleep with me for five pounds?
Socialite: Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!
Churchill: Madam, we’ve already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.

www.barrypopik.com...

The govement is going to take. And take and take and take and take and take.

All were doing on this forum is "negotiating the price".

Shouldnt we be asking what they're taking and why they're taking instead of how much?

reply to post by Crakeur

In my opinion, our society is such that people put pride above needs and as a result, they will say they cannot find work because nobody's hiring them for their desired job and they haven't bothered to look at other sources of income that they deem beneath them.

Just FYI, I was recently blessed with an offer by an acquaintance for seasonal, part-time work (which has now ended) at minimum wage, and I jumped at it. I have a Masters degree, and was pleased as punch to have ANY offer, no matter for how short a time.

My spouse, a highly-skilled IT guy with extremely broad knowledge of his trade, was working in a copper-pipe sweat shop recently because he could not find work at his "level."

So please use discretion when making blanket statements like that.

reply to post by gwydionblack

I hear many people on ATS, around the globe, and in the Occupy Wall Street movements advocate more taxes for the rich and some even go so far as to say a "redistribution of wealth". I struggle to find where the belief in this comes from. Does it only come from people who don't have wealth or is it more wide spread?

Oh, it's way more widespread that just ATS, friend. Right now, less than 2000 people control 90% of the world's money, they are above the law, and they do whatever it takes to make more, and more money. Money is their God, and their God is hungry. He demands more and more.

The big problem is simple. Central Banking Cartel. International in nature, boundaries do not exist for them, and if they had their way, they would not exist for you either. All of Humanity, except for THEM, are considered in the same way. Basically cattle, or a better term is sheep.
As far as they are concerned, you, and you, and yes, even you can just get sick and die. In fact, they will make sure you die, we will give you vaccines, and irradiate the atmosphere, they will poison your food, and water. They will send your children off to war, and call them heroes, while all the time these heroes just kill people, millions of people.