We're in so much trouble...

reply to post by havok


Here in lies the sollution, QUIT feeding the machine. We do vote with our money, money is what feeds the machine. It doesn't need to get bloody to throw off TPTB we just need to quit using our credit cards, take our money out of the banking industry by refinancing loans thru credit unions, pull any deposits and stop buying stuff we don't really need. Keep money local as much as possible. What about boycotting insurance companies of all types? There are many ways we can make ourselves heard and many different ways we can effect change.

Remember how big this beast really is. It's in our schools and our whole medical system but one thing at a time. Hitting them where it hurts most is the first step toward our freedom. The largest enemy is our own complacency, we have gotten really comfortable in our enslavement. I think the real question is how bad will it have to become before enough people get off their lazy butts and help? Will it be enough, soon enough?

Everybody wants world peace. Everybody wants to be secure, comfortable and have a decent stab at making their dreams come true. Everybody wants to give the best to their children. Everybody wants to save the planet.

But these things have a cost, and resources are limited. Priorities are in conflict; one desirable end is often achieved at the expense of another. And even people whose priorities are the same rarely agree on how best to attain their ends.

Yes, greed got out of hand. Well out of hand. But it wasn’t just the elite, or the bankers, who were greedy. Everyone who ever took out a second mortgage on the house before paying off the first, everyone who ever owned more than one credit card, everyone who bought on credit what they could not afford to pay for in cash – all those people were greedy too, and they are just the ones who are now complaining the loudest.

Oh, the machine! But everyone’s a cog in it. And oh, you ninety-nine-percenters, so happily afloat, captainless (but making waves all right), upon a tide of popular revolt. Perhaps you will bring the revolution, although I doubt it. Popular movements need leaders before they can achieve anything but anarchy.

Will the times bring forth the man – or woman?

I do not believe they will. The free world is too full of cameras and microphones. The gods themselves would be exposed as impostors after five minutes, their feet of clay beamed across the planet by satellite TV. Nobody retains his mystique long enough to become a mass hero these days.

Besides, the masses have had it with heroes. They’re all up to here with heroes. A heroic leader would make demands of his followers – work, hardship, self-sacrifice – and that’s just what they can’t stomach. Don’t they elect leaders and pay them salaries to run the place and keep everything shipshape? It’s those leaders who are supposed to fix the problems of society, not the masses – no effort is to be demanded of Joe Consumer with his TV-shaped eyes and his mortgage and his sixpack, nor from those ninety-nine-percenters down there in the square, chanting and waving their banners and enjoying the funky buzz of all that neighbourliness and solidarity, the contact high of all that dangerous, self-righteous communality... They, too, expect the politicians and the ‘elite’ to fix their lives for them.

Will the times bring forth the man (or woman)?

I do not believe they will. Pray I am right.

What's wrong with anarchy? There is a lot more maturity in that than the nanny state system we have now. Needs will force the change. Over time, it will mellow into something we're all better off with. But what we have now is sheer failure.

One more thing: You said all things cost and resources are limited. Neither is true. There is enough for everyone. It's just that people have learned to be greedy because of seriously skewed value systems compliments of our highly effective population programming methods. People don't know who they really are or what is really important to them. Think about it. All you need is enough. More is just greed.

reply to post by CosmicEgg

What's wrong with anarchy?

Try it and you will soon see for yourself!

You said all things cost and resources are limited. Neither is true. There is enough for everyone. It's just that people have learned to be greedy because of seriously skewed value systems compliments of our highly effective population programming methods.

All activity requires energy. Energy is costly. Therefore everything has a cost. This is true for all living things, not just for humans.

There is not enough for everyone. There is not enough, in the end, even for a few. This is because status is the most important thing in any society, animal or human, and humans measure an individual’s relative status by his power and his possessions. It is never enough for all men to be equal; it never will be, even if we were all, equally, as rich as Croesus. We would still go on needing (not wanting) bigger and more potent symbols for our status, never satisfied as long as we remained human. The biggest available – no, bigger than that, the biggest possible – would still not be enough. And why do I say need and not want? Because this greed is driven by instinct, not by any kind of ‘programming’. It is innate. Surely you don’t think the Emperor Khufu was ‘programmed’ to want a mountain for a tombstone?

I admire your faith that such things can be changed by simple will, but I have seen too much to believe it. Armed as it now is with potent technology, our inner nature as social primates is a fearsome threat to us and the other living things with which we share the world. Perhaps it will evolve in the future to be less of a threat; there are some, like Steven Pinker, who argue that it already is--that human beings have become, for example, less violent (on average, so to speak) since prehistoric times. Whether we will evolve into angels fast enough to save ourselves is uncertain. One thing is certain: no act of will--no act of goodwill--is going to do it.

reply to post by Astyanax


Your mind certainly is firmly closed, I will give you that. Remember this: Form follows thought. Think it and it will be so. Keep that mind where it is and you will certainly maintain that stasis. Anarchy isn't as you might imagine. Think about it. Open your mind. Open your heart. The world is changing, like it or not. You will only suffer needlessly if you try to keep things within your comfort zone. Let go and live now. Let it all go and feel freedom for the first time. It's bracing!

Don't try to hold onto the failure that we know now. We can make things right and good. Let go of the past. The future is here.

I know I'm going to get hell from people on here for saying this but,

You should see your doctor about receiving Anti- Depressants.

You're too stressed out about whats currently going on in the world.

Or take a nice trip to Giza, Egypt see the beautiful Pyramids, and relax.

reply to post by thejlxc


I tend to agree with almost EVERYTHING you wrote except one little thing. This "No Hope" thingy. Here is why:

1) My grandfather was one of a few who was able to survive and escape the mighty Nazi war machine. They too had tech and power on their side but here I am the product of one man who did not believe in "no hope" and survived.

2) It is good practice to properly evaluate the enemy. But it is also not correct to overly quantify their power. When you consider that they are a small group of men compared to the mass of sheep that we are, math alone is on our side.

3) Those weapons you talk about, that are greater then guns, well, they too can fall into the wrong hands. Militias have a way to get more then just small arms. I never believed that six shooters would topple the current war machines.

4) The military, is made of people. who have mothers and fathers. I know it cause I was military. And I had a heart. And a brain. And I knew what was wrong and what was right. Some of them will see the light real quick.

5) This is speculation, but there is always the possible chance that there are actually good ET's out there who would intervene or have already done so. I see no proof as of yet, but I am happy to consider the possibility.

6) And this is the most important of it all. If you believe that we are not just humans having a spiritual experience but rather great spirits having a human experience, and if you subscribe to the ideas presented in the movie "the secret", than you would know that with just our collective thoughts we would bring them all down.

Don't assume there is no hope, because then, you are just like the sleeping sheeple. Don't hope to see a better world either. KNOW it is coming very very soon.

reply to post by Astyanax

There is not enough for everyone. There is not enough, in the end, even for a few. This is because status is the most important thing in any society, animal or human, and humans measure an individual’s relative status by his power and his possessions.

There is green earth and seed enough for us all, and the understanding and technology available to give us exponentially more resourcefulness than ever before. Yet surplus crops are burned because people can't pay the asked price, money is wasted frivilously on costly scientific ventures, on multi-million drug research programs, on the military-industrial machine. We can build skywards in smart-towers, build cars that produce so much clean energy that we could plug them in to fuel entire cities, eliminate pollution worldwide in under twenty years, and have enough leftover to help everyone. Once we get rid rid of the corrupt over-governance, transform past violence and put that wasted effort to healthy enterprise, and change our world. It takes a critical mass to arrive at, and peoples recognizance that the answer is originally an inner discovery process.

Tower of Tomorrow, Fortune magazine design
money.cnn.com...

Great movements started with small thoughts, everything happens regionally to everyone, and people were always at their best when left to govern themselves with optimism, guidance, fair laws, assured rights, and justice cojoined with compassion.

I agree with Cosmic Egg on the anarchy point, especially given the sheer diversity of humanity. What's wrong with controlled anarchy, as in a geographical community placement for this city-state/commune of government, so long as it doesn't affect neighbouring communities, keeps to certain sovereign laws, allows people to leave freely, and so long as everyone within is in agreement with the community modifications?

Originally posted by Astyanax

You said all things cost and resources are limited. Neither is true. There is enough for everyone. It's just that people have learned to be greedy because of seriously skewed value systems compliments of our highly effective population programming methods.

All activity requires energy. Energy is costly. Therefore everything has a cost. This is true for all living things, not just for humans.

There is not enough for everyone. There is not enough, in the end, even for a few. This is because status is the most important thing in any society, animal or human, and humans measure an individual’s relative status by his power and his possessions.

edit on 22/10/11 by Astyanax because: I'm fussy.

I disagree. This belief that we are low on resources is one of the most important criteria to maintain in order to sustain the "Western" way of living. This belief creates an artificial sense of supply and demand. It also creates a false sense of urgency to turn on survival instincts. How can any human or animal evolve if they are forced to operate in such a primal state of mind? It forces the 99%, if you will, to compete against each other instead of for each other (spare me the hippie treehugger joke).

If the Internet had not been released to us, I would probably be as hopeless as I'm perceiving you to be. We would all be lost in confusion and be in complete submission to propaganda. Remember the 90's? Looking back, it's scary to think how susceptible we were to being manipulated. The Internet revolutionized everything. Free, true, instantaneous communication.

If there was ever a symbol to keep hope alive, it would be the Internet. If "they" took the Internet from us now, at this point in time of one of the most important awakenings in the past 12000 years, the people would certainly be outraged.

This IMHO is potentially the best thread I have seen on ATS ever.
Some great replies and its heartening to realise that hope is burning in many hearts in these dark days to come.
Depressingly I have to agree with the OP (S&F)
I believe that the world is standing on the edge of a cliff and most people are too afraid to open their eyes and cling to the belief that purely positive thinking or a god of some sort will be a bulwark against the mighty shadow that is descending.
I am sad to say that I think we will prove to be our own worst enemy.
I hope that I am so wrong.
Humans Eh? what are we like?

reply to post by aaron556

You're too stressed out about what's currently going on in the world.

Actually, he’s stressed out by what’s going on on television. Or possibly the internet.

People who think the world is inside a box are always telling us to think outside the box. :shk:

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reply to post by Northwarden

There is green earth and seed enough for us all, and the understanding and technology available to give us exponentially more resourcefulness... We can build skywards in smart-towers, build cars that produce so much clean energy that we could plug them in to fuel entire cities, eliminate pollution worldwide... Get rid rid of the corrupt over-governance, transform past violence and put that wasted effort to healthy enterprise, and change our world...

Your idealism does you great credit. Your naivety, not as much.

Assuredly, Utopia is possible. On the box.

On the box, human nature is easily moulded.

On the box, love conquers all.

And oh, yes, pigs will sprout wings and glide upon the breast of the air like plump pterodactyls. On the box.

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reply to post by Pgrantham

This belief that we are low on resources is one of the most important criteria to maintain in order to sustain the "Western" way of living. This belief creates an artificial sense of supply and demand.

You aren’t thinking straight. If the object of the people you call the Powers that Be is to promote consumerism, thus artificially stimulating production and capital formation, it would be in their interest to downplay any hint that resources were limited, that overconsumption and competiton were drawing the world to disaster. And of course, this is just what we see: big business denies global warming, the Saudis insist that energy alternatives will never pay their way against petroleum, bankers swear the money they produce out of thin air is real, and the Chinese leadership turns a blind eye to the human squanderings and environmental pillage that attend their economic miracle. Read The Economist and you will discover that its editors and journalists are forever insisting that ‘capitalism is not a zero-sum game’. It is real life, in the form of a planet of finite extent and adaptability, that keeps sadly and ever less gently insisting that resources are limited.

It also creates a false sense of urgency to turn on survival instincts. How can any human or animal evolve if they are forced to operate in such a primal state of mind?

Survival instincts are ‘turned on’, as you put it, all the time. They are not ‘a primitive state of mind’, they are the initiators and drivers of all we do. Again, you are reasoning from a misunderstood premise.

It forces the 99%, if you will, to compete against each other instead of for each other (spare me the hippie treehugger joke).

As Darwin pointed out over 150 years ago, the deadliest competitor any member of any species can have is another member of the same species. That is because they both occupy the same environmental niche and must compete the same (limited) resources to survive and propagate their genes. Blackbirds don’t pick fights with earthworms, they fight other blackbirds. Elephant seals don’t kill orcas (though it would be of some benefit to them to do so) but only other elephant seals. Moose don’t lock horns with reindeer.

I would probably be as hopeless as I'm perceiving you to be.

Lacking illusions is not, I am happy to say, the same thing as lacking hope.

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reply to post by CosmicEgg

Remember this: Form follows thought. Think it and it will be so.

Yes, and beggars would be tinkers. I agree that self-deception generates useful placebo effects and can be a powerful motivator, but the trajectories of brute matter still sadly refuse to bend themselves to the power of wishful thinking.

Anarchy isn't as you might imagine.

Unlike you, I don’t need to imagine it. I have seen it, during a period of ethnic rioting and mob rule in my country many years ago.

Let it all go and feel freedom for the first time. It's bracing!

I have lived as a free man in a free country. Now I live under a corrupt, authoritarian government in a poor, backward country, where resentments from a generation-long civil war still fester. They are, incidentally, the same country. Perhaps you could spare your advice for others as inexperienced as yourself, and stick to the topic instead. Thank you kindly.

The US is in way, way more trouble that it could ever imagine..

Blow-by-blow, events are following the IDENTICAL path that occurred in the last days of the Ancien Regime, just prior to the French Revolution which is so misunderstood by the general public.

The mirror is exceptionally scary and I really do recommend that people consider leaving the US now.

If history continues to repeat, in the near future, the following will occur:-

- A disgruntled senior official, detached from reality, with land some nasty punches on the current administration in a stab in the back.
- People will belive that they the US will default which will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- As US binds collapse, finance houses/banks will follow.
- Public anger will spill into attacks on the wealthy perceived to be behind it.
- Fearing a rumoured martial law, the Middle Classes who will have lost everything apart from their homes, will tool up and start to raid National Guard etc armouries.
- Fearing that mob and that they won't be paid, by a bankrupt Government, soliders,/Mational Guardsmen will not bother to try to stop them.
- Any attempt at martial law will fail making the Government seem weak and disabled.
- As law and order break down, all businesses will close, accelerating the crash and default.
- THose who have been rounded up wll be seen as heroes and prisons with seized people will be raided.
- As law and order break down. the threshold of "rich" who are being raided and often lynched will crash until people are killing their neighbours off and "rich" like local lawyers, dentists and even taxi drivers will be attacked and lynched. Ultimately, anyone with even a University degree will find themselve facing a lynch mob.
- The USA will, by now closely ressemble the opeing scenes of "Dawn of the Dead" in terms of chaos.
- Starvation will now break out with all business shut down.

This is what will soon follow ynless derailed by drastic changes in Government policy and protestor action.

reply to post by Astyanax


"You aren’t thinking straight. If the object of the people you call the Powers that Be is to promote consumerism, thus artificially stimulating production and capital formation, it would be in their interest to downplay any hint that resources were limited, that overconsumption and competiton were drawing the world to disaster. And of course, this is just what we see"

You are quite the spin-doctor, I must say. Very clever. To retort within the framework of your reasoning would be the equivalence of disregarding everything I truly said in my post - all because you have twisted my words in order to fit within the framework of the "limited resources" narrative you are trying to perpetuate. I did not mention "the Powers that Be," or their objective to promote "consumerism." Again, clever.
When I say:
"This belief that we are low on resources is one of the most important criteria to maintain in order to sustain the "Western" way of living."

You then insert your spin to make it sound like I meant:
"...the object of the people you call the Powers that Be is to promote consumerism."

Nowhere did I make the connection that the perception of having low resources promote what you broadly paint as "consumerism." That is completely unrelated to anything I said.

I will not bother explaining what I meant because you are already aware of it. I know it. You know it.

reply to post by Astyanax


There is enough to go around. It's just that the elite are good at creating artificial scarcity. If you don't understand how the money system is designed to keep people enslaved you haven't looked at the history in good enough depth to see the big picture of where this is all leading.

I will sum this up for you to make this short:

they have enough riches and money to do what they will. It's about control of people now.

They need you to accept them as above the laws that bind the average person, as "gods" if you will.

When a person has the divine right of kings any law they make is not for them but for you to follow. The god of this world(satan) is the god who wants to set up an earthly kingdom and then reign over all the nations; a world empire which can be used to fight against god at the end of days using the worlds combined military power.

The idea of a utpoia with the elite on top and the slaves on the bottom is something that is a plan worked on for a long time. What is stopping this is the people who still hold to the idea of "national sovereignty" where people fight for the country they are born in and are proud to obey the system that they are a part of. (this is the old order they want to collapse so people get used to the new order of "global responsibility" as opposed to national interests)

It's the reason why globalists are trying to paint themselves as bringers of peace. But it is not peace that is in there hearts since they fund the wars to cause division in the first place. It is the motivation to make the system more simple for themselves so they can expand their wealth more quickly and control the earth's resources by not having to listen to the nations who; ordinarily under the old system, would have to listen to the laws of the land that the common people live on.

There is a clash between what people who live on the land and are loyal to their own nation want, vs what the elites/globalists dream of. The dream for the elites is just hijacking the governments and selling their utopia to the public as a good thing for all (ie saying it can bring 'peace') and then charging you money for their service through global taxes on carbon or whatever scheme they have in mind to force nation to give them free money. And the wish of the people is to be left alone so they can be independent. It's got nothing to do with not enough resources. This is just part of the plan to scare you into accepting draconic laws and bringing in a depopulation of the planet to make it easier for them to control the masses of people that will have little use to them now.

You can't have independence if you don't fight for it. This is why eventually they will win because the earth is designed mostly for evil to triumph as humans have weaknesses that they will not admit to in public an take responsibility for. (something the elite like to take advantage of and blackmail leaders with to keep them in line) To obtain absolute control they need to control the resources of the world so they can then deny anyone who opposes them access to it. Once they achieve this they can starve off the opposition and begin to build the one world government and use force to make each nation accept their rule.

If you can get control of earth's resources you won't have to worry about any resistence since people will come to you and beg for mercy. It's already happening with posts here where people just feed into the system by asking the government to rescue them from a problem which they (globalist corporations that only care about raping the environment) deliberately brought about. Why would they listen to you if they have the leverage and you work for them and take their money to feed your family? The only way to prevent this is everyone forms a new government which competes with the existing one and then uses up the resources to deny them control over it. It has to have leaders that are prepared to put the nation's interest above the globalist's interest and allow the nation to be able to print its own money as well as ally itself with other nations that do not accept a collectivist globalist ideal of a one world government.

Since people have nothing left to lose there is no good reason NOT to do that. There is not a shortage of land, trees, fish, people who will to fight for independence, food, energy etc. Please do not believe that lie.

The money that you don't have was simply stolen when you didn't take an interest in global affairs and kept begging for more money that didn't exist. Money which they say you had to pay back at interest which you could not possibly pay back since not enough of the money circulates to cover the principle and interest. (this is where ownership of people comes into play: they know you can't pay them back so they say "we will take ownership of humans who can work for us and pay us through their enslavement". The mark of the beast is related since in order to track their slaves they need something to brand them with to ensure you legally agreed to the contract with them, just like you legally work for corporations that don't give a # about #ing the environment)


To get your freedom you must know your enemy. They decieved you. Find out how.. Work on solution so it never happens again. Then compete against what ever nation the globalists will try to use to fight against you. If that other nation is better armed, better run, has larger army you will at least be able to say you fought for what was right. But asking these same guys to "please be nice next time" is silly since they are not loyal to the common people in the nations they pretend to be helping out. This is why people have concerns about the military industrial complex which is what eisenhower warned about. You should have prepared in advance for this kind of thing.

Also people who are non-violent can still offer prayers to fight against evil. You forgot that god is on the side of the innocent. If you have no faith in god why should he have faith in you? Don't you understand that it is a relationship? You screw over your relation with him by turning away from him and being distracted by everyday things, then you legally give satan more power to obtain ownership of your mind over a long period of time. (this doesn't apply to non-christians since they have their own beliefs. If you are a christian though, you should be praying every day of the week to help influence those who can make differences and who are honest. Not complaining. This is what your faith is about. You can't say "satan is winning there is no point", when god gives you authority over him and his demons, and when satan was the one that was kicked out of heaven and defeated by god. That lack of faith is one reason I think God should not answer, if only to demonstrate that faithful people should be given the authority to command and not those who are weak in faith and doubt God's saving power.)

reply to post by Pgrantham

I did not mention "the Powers that Be," or their objective to promote "consumerism."

Indeed you did not. You said:

"This belief that we are low on resources is one of the most important criteria to maintain in order to sustain the "Western" way of living."

What do you mean by the Western way of living? Do you not mean consumer capitalism? What else could you possibly mean – democracy, meat-eating, liberalism, Christianity? Come on – who is trying to be the spin doctor here?

Never mind; call it what you will. Who wants to sustain that way of living? All or most Westerners? So they’re busily telling each other that resources are limited, and believing it too? Can you explain how that sustains the ‘Western way of living’ ? Believing resources are limited may motivate you to grab a bigger share for yourself, but how does telling other people that benefit you? It only means they’ll be motivated to grab a bigger share too, making it harder for you to do so. No, the people who benefit from promoting consumerism and economic competition are brand owners, financiers and governments (who reap taxes from all the getting and spending). In other words – the Powers that Be.

All right, perhaps you don’t call them that yourself; I don’t, either. But people with your mindset are constantly using that term to describe the people they regard as their adversaries. The ‘you’ in my phrase ‘the people you call the Powers that Be’ was a plural, not a singular ‘you’.

"...the object of the people you call the Powers that Be is to promote consumerism."

If that is not exactly what you meant – and I still believe it is – then tell us exactly what you did mean. Don’t use the cop-out your used earlier, of presenting your arguments in the passive voice. If a desire exists, it exists in somebody’s mind. If a ‘population program’ exists, there must be a programmer. Who are these hidden manipulators? Name them, or admit honestly that you have no idea who or what you are talking about.

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reply to post by Snake Plisskin

I will sum this up for you to make this short

You didn’t; but your reply wasn’t any more convincing, I’m afraid, for being so long, rambling and filled with irrelevancies.

Originally posted by Unknown Soldier
reply to post by robomont

 

Exactly when the day comes that blood is flowing in the streets like a river expect me right there next to you fighting along side, i feel like ravenous dog lusting for the moment. The riot police would be crushed under a wall of millions of screaming Americans... ahh i can smell the iron of blood in the air as I type this. Yes I have made plans for the day, much thought out. I think they would be quite surprised at the organization of our militias. Or defected military service men and vets coming to the final battle. It will be magnificent!

We are already in a war. The war is simple. Wake up everyone to this idea that we are in a prison planet. When enough have woken this war is done. It is just like gang warfare, where the biggest gang wins. We have all underestimated the people's power and overestimated the small group of evil men who are calling the shots. And brother, I don't care what list I am put on. I don't care what financial situation I would find myself in. And when SHTF, I will be by your side advancing with you. You can count on it.

reply to post by passiveresistance

Wake up everyone to this idea that we are in a prison planet. When enough have woken this war is done.

A prison planet presumably has wardens. Will they stand idly by while the prisoners make good their escape?

reply to post by Astyanax


I like to think of them more as sheep herders. What would the guy with the whip do when the seep scatter? He will watch his money hopping away to the distance.

reply to post by Astyanax


"What do you mean by the Western way of living? Do you not mean consumer capitalism? What else could you possibly mean – democracy, meat-eating, liberalism, Christianity? Come on – who is trying to be the spin doctor here?"

You are focusing too much on my intended generality of "Western" living. To simply define it as consumer capitalism, as you do, redirects focus to other concepts of economics that are only allowed to exist under the pretense that resources are indeed limited (or low - of course resources are limited). This is the exact opposite of what I am arguing, which is, resources are indeed abundant. But, to answer your question of what I am referring to when I say Western, I am focusing on the every day lives of the majority - their values, their world views, their growing (not anymore) sense of divisiveness between one another, whether it be through racism, gender, or sexual preference, and how their whole lives have been constructed to work against their own brothers and sisters. The perception that resources are low is the fallacy that has provided the fuel (pun) to uphold this way of living. When a human feels as if they won't be able to eat tomorrow because someone else has been collecting welfare checks, then blames that person for being a leech on society - that is an example of exactly what I am talking about. We have been pitted against each other under a false pretense.

So, onto my argument that resources are abundant:
There was a time not long ago, when resources were, just as you say, limited, but only to the rational proximity of the consumer. This was due to 3 things: lack of transportation, lack of instantaneous communication, and lack of free information (to increase resourcefulness). We now live in a world with all three and even more. If I need to expand on these more, I can, but I think you are smart enough to factor in the Internet. We no longer need oil to fuel our cars. We no longer need the Post Office (although I would like for it to continue). And we no longer need corn and wheat when we have the capability to mass produce the healthiest foods from around the world. These are not to be simply dismissed as "idealist beliefs."

"No, the people who benefit from promoting consumerism and economic competition are brand owners, financiers and governments (who reap taxes from all the getting and spending)."

You state that as if you disagree with me. On the contrary! hows that for spin?

"All right, perhaps you don’t call them that yourself; I don’t, either. But people with your mindset are constantly using that term to describe the people they regard as their adversaries."

You are correct, and that reason is exactly why I try to use the term sparingly, but don't try to blame a broadly appealing mindset because it attracts a lot of crazies. Opposites attract, do they not?XD You an I both know of the paranoid wing of conspiracy theorists, and we both know how, and why, not to be mistakenly identified with them. One poor lady I saw on another site actually considered her landlord to be one of the daunting "Powers That Be..."

"If a ‘population program’ exists, there must be a programmer. Who are these hidden manipulators? Name them, or admit honestly that you have no idea who or what you are talking about."

Alright, so are we allowed to just call them the PTB's now? haha. To answer your question, and I realize you are trying to trap me, the people I consider the "PTB's" are people that are not so different than you an I. They are people who understand the psychology of any given demographic. The Ed Bernay's, the Frank Luntz's, and anyone else who knows how to skillfully manipulate the masses with their own thoughts and desires. Many people would say the Fed Reserve, or the IMF, or Kissinger, Rockefeller, Rothschild, etc., etc... and that's all true to an extent. But I consider the people that have the true power to be the masters of what you an I both are doing to each other in this thread.

Originally posted by HumansEh
This IMHO is potentially the best thread I have seen on ATS ever.
Some great replies and its heartening to realise that hope is burning in many hearts in these dark days to come.
Depressingly I have to agree with the OP (S&F)
I believe that the world is standing on the edge of a cliff and most people are too afraid to open their eyes and cling to the belief that purely positive thinking or a god of some sort will be a bulwark against the mighty shadow that is descending.
I am sad to say that I think we will prove to be our own worst enemy.
I hope that I am so wrong.
Humans Eh? what are we like?

Great comment to a brillant thread.
I agree. There`s too many people who just won`t open there eyes and ears to take in the reality of this situation we`re in.