Socialism is Coming to America

Sorry for the funny headline - just wanted to provoke some angry people

The problem of America today is the greed mentality of a very small minority - the social imbalance, the huge gap between the "working poor" and the very few, rich.

Anytime when someone proposes a change THERE where it's really needed, voices are heard screaming loud "socialism, communism" - often used in one sentence as if socialism/communism etc. are the same thing. Sometimes i wonder whether the people screaming and panicking about socialism do actually know what socialism is or what the difference between capitalism/socialism/communism etc. is.

Let's take an example:

If the government were to provide programs, tax cuts and similar for companies which would encourage them to hire people - this is NOT "socialism" let alone "communism". The same would apply eg. for government programs like aiding people who are unemployed, the government would support them financially to get new skills with the goal to integrate them into the work force again. (Example: If the gvt would pay someone to go to school learning computer skills or whatever other skills which are high in demand on the job market).

What i don't understand:

It works here in Europe for a long time already - and i don't have the feeling we are anywhere near "communism" nor does it hurt capitalism (the possibility for each individual to get rich, in simple speak) in any way?

So..how do you propose a change in YOUR society and fixing the problems like unemployment...and why does it seem that many people are so afraid of change....and why do they think that any such change would result in "overturning" America into a society like the former Soviet Union with hordes of people marching through the streets holding banners of Mao/Lenin etc.? This is just an absurd notion but i think some people really think this would happen.

You are ALREADY paying taxes for all kinds of stuff.. you are already under "government control" in some way, because what if you don't agree with what your government spends your tax money on? Do you think all your tax money is always spent wisely? So..what is wrong if there would be more "official" government programs which address the problems you are having right now and tax money is spent on THOSE things instead?

(In other words: If the gvt takes your tax money and spends it on Afghanistan...it's "ok" and you are happy...but if the gvt would take your tax money and spends it on education programs for integration of unemployed - then it's socialism and something "bad" ??)

If we were to replace our current capitalist system with something similar to Europe it would no longer be the corporate bigwigs with all the wealth it would be our crooked politicians with all of it.

reply to post by micmerci


at least you get to vote for your politicians, well that's the idea. You certainly don't get a vote on the corporate big wig

Originally posted by micmerci
If we were to replace our current capitalist system with something similar to Europe it would no longer be the corporate bigwigs with all the wealth it would be our crooked politicians with all of it.

That's not really how it is, Europe is not that different to America when is comes to economics, it's all capitalism, the private ownership of the means of production. People want more than just nationalised health care, which isn't socialism btw.

Anyone notice how the press is taking credit for America starting the protests in Europe? What a lie, Europeans have bee protesting capitalism for years, ignored by the US press of course. I was doing it in the 80's, we had the 'Stop the City' protests etc.

The US has always demonized socialism, but If the world became socialist America would find some way to claim credit for it.

Socialism btw doesn't have to include government, or state, that is not what socialism is. Socialism is an economic system, not a political system.

Anarchism is stateless socialism, Mikhail Bakunin

www.spunk.org...

Originally posted by micmerci
If we were to replace our current capitalist system with something similar to Europe it would no longer be the corporate bigwigs with all the wealth it would be our crooked politicians with all of it.

The corporate bigwigs control the crooked politicians.. if the U.S. became socialist it would be terrifying we'd have even less control over our government than we currently have.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by micmerci

 

at least you get to vote for your politicians, well that's the idea. You certainly don't get a vote on the corporate big wig

edit on 17-10-2011 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)

Yes you do. Either be it by stock holdings or with your wallet.


You can keep your socialism.

Socialism works well for Europe because it was invented in Europe and suits the climate that birthed it: A bevy of densely populated, socially stratified small states with fierce competition for natural resources and stagnant population growth.

Applying socialism in America makes less sense because we are so different from Europe; our economy and geographic situation are different, as well as a different culture.



Edit to add:

Check out this guy's charts of inherited wealth versus self-made millionaires. The graphs of Europe and the USA are mirror images of each other. In the US, 31% of the billionaire fortunes were inherited. In Europe, 60% of billionaires inherited their wealth.

Socialist societies have much more rigid and inherited class structure.

Most Americans don't want that.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


Europe is NOT socialist.

Does Europe have worker control of the economy? No it doesn't.

It is capitalist, more liberal than the US, but still capitalist.

Socialism is the workers control of the economy, capitalism is private control of the economy.

There has never been a socialist economy, the closest ever was Spain during the revolution/civil war 1936.

Europeans have been protesting capitalism for decades.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by micmerci

 

at least you get to vote for your politicians, well that's the idea. You certainly don't get a vote on the corporate big wig

edit on 17-10-2011 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)

Yes you do. Either be it by stock holdings or with your wallet.

Nice concept in theory, but when corporations control all the natural resources it doesn't work.

People need to stop thinking about money and start thinking about the real physical variables.

Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by dr_strangecraft

 

Europe is NOT socialist.

Does Europe have worker control of the economy? No it doesn't.

The state controls far more of the economy than is the case in the US. In that sense Europe is much more collectivist. State socialism is about the only kind that has been tried....but you seriously think radical socialism is coming to the US???

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

The state controls far more of the economy than is the case in the US. In that sense Europe is much more collectivist. State socialism is about the only kind that has been tried....but you seriously think radical socialism is coming to the US???

Socialism is not state control. Socialism is the worker ownership and control of the means of production.

Collectivism is not state control either. Collectivism is another word for cooperatives. In socialism a collective is simply an organization that benefits its members, and is ran on a non-authoritative model. In other words all members are equal, and no hierarchical system is in place. If you have ego problems it may not be for you lol.

Socialism is an economic system, not political.

Anarchism traditionally supports a type of socialist economy. It was/is considered the none-state form of socialism, as apposed to Marxism which supports a state system.

Anarchism is stateless socialism, Mikhail Bakunin

www.spunk.org...

OH BTW, no I don't think socialism is coming to the US. They would see us all die before they let that happen.

There has not been any state socialist countries, even in state socialism the means of production are worker owned, not privately, or state owned. State, or government owned, is nationalism. That is why in Europe they call it national health care, not social healthcare. Even though 'social' in that context doesn't mean the same as the economic term of 'socialism'.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


Democracy originated in Europe but you allegedly prescribe to a democratic system.

Lots of things which are an integral part of American culture and society originated in Europe.

Your reasoning makes no sense at all.

I find it quite worrying that the population of the bastion and leader of the 'free world' has such a brain washed, uneducated and innacurate opinion of Europe and Socialism etc.

Let see, conservatism, liberalism hasn't worked so why not try socialism for awhile.

Everyone has benefitied from a social program at one point in your lives and to deny this is dead wrong.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
Let see, conservatism, liberalism hasn't worked so why not try socialism for awhile.

Everyone has benefitied from a social program at one point in your lives and to deny this is dead wrong.

Hate to repeat myself but this needs to be repeated until people wake up.

Social programs are NOT socialism. They are a product of capitalism, because capitalism causes an artificial scarcity of resources, and creates an inequality in wealth.

A socialist economy would not be everyone on social programs from the government. How would that work in an Anarchist socialist (libertarian socialist) system? In a true socialist economy there would be very little need for 'social programs'.

Conservatism and liberalism are also not economic systems, and can both be relevant in a socialist economy, whether it be state ran or Anarchist. I consider myself to be quite conservative actually.

It's also not that "everyone" in Europe would *want* socialism/communism - not after the disasters of the break-down of all the former communistic states, namely former Eastern Germany, all the other formerly communistic countries and then the former Soviet Union. BIG FAILS right there.

No one in their right mind would still root for "hardcore" communism/marxism after it has shown to fail. So why should such "communism" etc. ever come to America? It's just an absurd idea.

A "socialism" as such here in Europe does not exist, we are living in a free, Western society with Capitalism...just that some of the weaker aspects of capitalism are tackled..eg. with government influence where it makes sense...but i would not go so far and say "government control". No one here "controls" everyone as was the case in the now defunct communist/socialist countries...or as someone would imply if they use a word like "socialism" in a negative sense.

Originally posted by flexy123
It's also not that "everyone" in Europe would *want* socialism/communism - not after the disasters of the break-down of all the former communistic states, namely former Eastern Germany, all the other formerly communistic countries and then the former Soviet Union. BIG FAILS right there.

But they weren't communist in the first place. They were dictatorships, and they used the term 'communism' to appease the population. You have to realise at the time communism, and socialism, were what the majority of 'the people' believed in. Both the west, and the east governments, used those terms to their own benefit. The Russians used communism to make the people believe they were for them. The same exact reason Hitler called his party National "Socialism". The west demonized the terms 'communism' and 'socialism', which all governments are afraid of, by associating them with those countries. Both sides were saying the opposite, but both were lying to their people.

No one in their right mind would still root for "hardcore" communism/marxism after it has shown to fail. So why should such "communism" etc. ever come to America? It's just an absurd idea.

Neither has failed due to its own shortfalls, it's always been an outside power, the same power that rules over us now.

A "socialism" as such here in Europe does not exist, we are living in a free, Western society with Capitalism...just that some of the weaker aspects of capitalism are tackled..eg. with government influence where it makes sense...but i would not go so far and say "government control". No one here "controls" everyone as was the case in the now defunct communist/socialist countries...or as someone would imply if they use a word like "socialism" in a negative sense.

You are not as free as you think you are. Socialism is not government control. Most all of the world is controlled by capitalist interests, including its governments. Capitalism is not freedom, because those with capital restrict the freedoms of those who only have their labour to sell. Capitalism makes money and private ownership a form of hierarchy, and gives people the power to control, and thus restrict the freedom of other people.

Originally posted by Drezden

Originally posted by micmerci
If we were to replace our current capitalist system with something similar to Europe it would no longer be the corporate bigwigs with all the wealth it would be our crooked politicians with all of it.

The corporate bigwigs control the crooked politicians.. if the U.S. became socialist it would be terrifying we'd have even less control over our government than we currently have.

We have absolutely no control over our government right now. What country are you living in

No, the problem with the Western World in general is that due to political correctness society is pandering to the wants and needs of its weakest members.

In Asia, Africa, and the Middle East, society panders to the strongest members, it's survival of the fittest, just like it has been throughout billions of years of evolution.

It's only in the last 20-30 years or so that Western society feels the need to pander to every single group that needs something changed because it doesn't fit their sensibilities.

While we do need to make sure that the most vulnerable are taken care of, it's time that the Western World went back to being nations of winners, instead of pandering to the losers.

Let the flaming begin.

Democracy may be an integral part of the American system, but the USA is NOT a Democracy.

As per my signature, what most people seem to forget is that the USA is a REPUBLIC. A democratic republic for sure, but not a pure democracy.

reply to post by babybunnies


So are the current Asian, African and Middle East societies and nations any 'better' than the Western ones?