Question for those who say they are losing rights in the US

Originally posted by Xcathdra

 

An excellent post..

Thank you for your service.

As far as what my opinion is, since your the first one to ask me for that and where I stand on this, is the people have failed the government.

Okay, thanks for responding, sorry for being harsh.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

 

Im not defending the government or its actions. What I AM doing is trying to get people to understand what they state. If a person doesnt take an intrest in all levels of government and participate, they dont know what their rights are. The longer people complain, yet refuse to learn and participate, the bigger this problem is going to get.

The simple fact people are listing issues that arent guaranteed rights prooves my point that there is a massive disconnect between what the people expect and what they actually get. People have been listing of issues, yet none of those issues are guaranteed to anyone in this country.

I understand you, but like I was saying the definition of what rights we have and are not allowed to have has been beaten into submission. We've always heard "life is not fair", this is true and I believe this for the most part in our modern world, but there comes a point when one actor (our beloved, now hybrid system) obviously is taking advantage and oppressing another (Americans, and foreign sovereignty to some extent).

Any person in power should have the highest respect for the foundation that supports him, in a progressive nation this should always be the main goal to promote prosperity and basic human progression. Instead the system of government has taken advantage of its people, the strong and righteous will always take side with those who are unfortunate hence we have no strong or righteous leaders, our leaders (in business and politics) are not ethically qualified for their positions and on top of that I believe they have committed a dangerous form of treason.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

 

How can you condemn a government for actions when you cant even explain how it works in the first place?

Though I understand this crap for the most part, I've got a good mind to believe that it's complexity is a defense mechanism.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

 

I am all for voting every single person out of office and returning to common sense. The American people became so lazy and apathetic, they quit caring what the government did and just rubberstamped at elections.

In order to effect fundamental change, especially when people want a return to a more strict view of the Constitution, that they should at least understand the document itself first?

Agreed.

Your question, while it seems simple, it is actually very dynamic.

The most basic, simple message that is coming from the protests and the American public at large is:

"We're ready, lets go, what the hell are you doing?"

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Example - show me where it states any right not granted by the constitution is reserved to you?

I hate to keep bringing up the drug war but most obviously is the plant. The Constitution does not explicitly grant me that right yet I do not have that right.

Regarding the 2nd, these states signed on to it when they joined. It is the "law of the land" and Mass should not be able to infringe the hell out it and use that infringement to toss me in jail for exercising it.

I know how government works just fine. I've helped plenty of campaigns, gotten plenty of signatures, sat in on local House and Senate hearings. All that "democracy is great" crap.

I'll tell you exactly how government works. Government works as a vehicle for the moron mass to use violence and threats against the minority, whatever minority, to satisfy whatever "flavor of the month" whim the mass is concerned with. As a by product of this the manipulative wealthy paired with dynasty oligarchs get to balance a happy medium that both keeps them rich and in power and pacifies the moron mass into a comatose like state where without fail the minority gets trampled on, property taken away from, thrown in jail, and even killed.

reply to post by Frogs


Your observation is the exact point of this thread. People read the op and immmediately began giving lists of "rights lost" and how the government has been doing this. They list those items in a general form, making no distinction between FEderal and State Governments.


Example -
They put items in the list, like life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, have been removed.

The problem with that argument is its not in the Constitution. Its actually from the Declaration of Independance.

My entire point behind this thread is to get people to actually open their eyes and learn how their government works, how it affects them and the federal and state levels, and how their actiosn and participation affect the very same in the other direction.

People do an awesome job being upset and stating why, but they dont give a solution to the problem. The reason for that is they cant adequately identify what the actual problem is, because they are not understanding how it works.

If people want to fix things, then they not only must be involved, but they also must be knowledgable on the topic.

A car mechanic can tell a person when they dont look good / looking ill and can probably list of 20 things that might be causing it. However, just because the person has some basic ideas, doesnt mean he understand the problem in its entirety.

You would go see a person who knows what they are talking about to diagnose and fix the problem right?

The citizens of this country have stated time and time again what the problems are. They are not rasping the concept though that they are also the experts on how it needs to be fixed, since the power and legitimacy of the government is derived from them.

One would think the people who know the problems would educate themselves on how to fix the problem?

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

You have to be kidding me. Your an American and your having to ask what rights we have and are loosing? Cmon.. You mean to tell me you don't think the patriot act is a violation of a persons right to privacey i.e. illegal search and seizure? I could and would go on but I won't dignify the question with more examples if your an American and need someone to explain it to you. Hey folks just more of the Dis-info police to get people distracted. I have to laugh at the desperation of it all..

edit on 15-10-2011 by CherubBaby because: edit

Please take the time to read then entire opening post before commenting.

thanks

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE


Yup and the 4th amendment states the government has to meet certain requirements to search. Again, those requirements apply to the government, not the individual.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
We can assume a number of things here.

1. The Declaration of Independence lists human rights as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If we go by THOSE individual rights - the death penalty goes against life, the restrictions on freedoms and regulations go against my liberty, and the government doing things against the will of the people goes against the happiness. Therefore, I have lost ALL my rights.

As the OP pointed out already, your rights are your until you interfere with the rights of others. So, the death penalty is not a violation of your right to life. Why? In order to be put on death row, you yourself have probably already taken the life of another. Your right is thereby removed. Does it make you unhappy the government is telling you you cannot commit fraud? Sorry. By commiting fraud you are again interfering with the rights of others. You deserve to lose your rights and go to jail. Do you propose there should be NO restrictions whatsoever on your life? Wouldnt that amount to anarchy?

These basic points can be used to refute your entire post.

reply to post by Xcathdra


You remember learning about sharecropping in school? Do you remember learning about how the tyranny in sharecropping wasn't in /denying anybody their rights/, but in the deliberate misinterpretation of those rights in favor of the group of people in power?

Asking such a black and white question such as "what rights have you lost" on ATS is flamebait because by legal definitions, nobody has lost any rights since around 1860.

But sharecropping didn't take any rights from anyone, either.

Way to lawyer troll ATS.

reply to post by Heyyo_yoyo


No I have not actually. As I have stated a few times now, people state they government has taken their rights from them. If people dont understand those rights, and how the government works, the claim that they are being removed is incorrect.

My intention is not to belittle people in the least. The point behind it is to get people to open their eyes and understand whats going on. That in order to fix these problems, it must go beyond simply stating the government took this from me.

Changes cant be made when the people trying to make those changes dont understand the problem. A few posts have been directed at me about where I fall in this without even asking my opinion on it. Its the 2100 meter rush to judgment, and it proves my point that instead of looking at the problem and understanding it, they find a problem and go in eyes closed full speed.

You have just done the same by your post as well to an extent by assuming my intentions were to belittle people or make them feel stupid, when in reality thats not even close to the point of this thread.

The problem is people have a perception problem. They perceive the government as being evil (general terms), and they can state why its evil, but they cant explain how they arrived at their conclsuion.

Originally posted by susej
It's not that we are totally losing our freedoms, it's that they are being severely altered. For example: Our right to assemble or protest. We must tell the date, place, and the duration of it.
We arent allowed to "disrupt" the public anymore by and you will get your bull horn confiscated if you use vulgar non threatening words or get to personal. Many people are also fighting against our right to bear arms and so on. But hey, people like you don't notice the little changes and laws passed by congress.

I am assuming you have directed this to me. If you have not, then my appologies now for answering it. You, like some others, have proven my point with the 100 meter rush to judgment. You are perceiving my actions in this thread as something undemocratic and evil, when its the farthest from the truth. Had you looked through the posts you would see a few where I ahve given my position on this matter.

Instead though you ahve labeled me as part of the problem, which is the problem. You didnt do any research to arrive at your conclusion on me.

You kae the statement about the protesting, yet its incorrect. You are using a blanket example and those dont work in this context.

When large groups protest and something occurs and peolple are arrested, what are they arrested for? The protesting, or their individual actions during the protest?

If people cant grasp that concept, then its going to continue on as the government taking rights away when thats not whats going on.

If a person is diagnosed with Kidney failure, would it be approrptiate to amputate their toe?

Originally posted by gwydionblack
We can assume a number of things here.

1. The Declaration of Independence lists human rights as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If we go by THOSE individual rights - the death penalty goes against life, the restrictions on freedoms and regulations go against my liberty, and the government doing things against the will of the people goes against the happiness. Therefore, I have lost ALL my rights.

The Declaration of Independance has absolutely no legal bearing on individual rights for US citizens. It was a nice letter to the crown as to why we were telling them to bugger off. This reinforces one of my points though that people have an idea of the documents themsleves, but dont know how they work and apply.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
2. If we go by the Bill of Rights our rights are as follows:

Freedom of religion - Though no explicitly done against me, freedom of religion has been lost to many groups in the past. Waco comes to mind as well as the whole Mosque ordeals around the country.

Freedom of religion is a good one for another point. Seperation of Church and State, since weve seena lot of that. Seperation of church and state is nowhere in the constitution.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
Freedom of speech - Depending on what I say. I can be thrown in jail for my statements or declared an enemy of the state or "terrorist". While I have the ability to practice my freedom of speech, I am not free from unruly punishments for using it.

Freedom of assembly - My right to assemble has been regulated by a permit process. Though permits do give the right of assembly, the fact that thousands of permits are denied for a number of reasons deprives those people of their freedom of assembly.

Permit requirement is generally required when major public right of ways are affected - IE roads. Your individual rights extend to the point when htey interfere with others, at which poiint its stops.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
Right to Bear Arms - Though not affecting everyone, in some locales in the United States is is illegal to bear firearms. In nearly all of the states regulations against certain firearms prevent people from owning firearms without paying a fee.

The right guarantees you that you can individualy own a gun. Taxes or no taxes, you can own a gun.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
Right of no Unreasonable Search and Seizure - Since the Patriot Act this right has been thrown out the window. Many, including myself, have been subject to unwarranted search of vehicles and homes, many times without probably cause.

Then it would be a 42 usc violation and you have a right to sue for a civil rights violation. However, being its a blanket statment you gave with no other info, my guess is there was something else going on you either arent aware of or dont recognize something they did as valid when in fact it is.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
Right of Due Process - Once again, post-9/11 the right of due process has been denied to political prisoners, not to mention that government has taken to assassinating people without bringing them to trial.

Again a blanket statement with no info.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
Right of a Speedy Trial - All about the country the right of a speedy trial has been subdued, with trials sometimes taking years to reach the courts, with innocent and guilty people alike being held captive for that time.

Actually no it has not.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
Right of No Excessive Bail - This is pretty self explanatory. Bail in America tends to reach into the hundreds of thousands of dollars and many times the millions. With the average American income standing at 39,000 per year, this can be seen as QUITE excessive.

Not really and again a blanket statement

I had to lop of the rest because of the charater count.

You use the term birth right - explain what that is and where it comes from, and how the government ook it form you.,

reply to post by Swills


I like Ron Paul and agree with a lot of what he wants to see done / fixed.

My point is people are quick to yell the government took this or took that, but they cant explain what was taken, and when asked they get confused by the answer.

Thats not meant as a slam on everyone btw.

A person who is upset with the system cant expect to fix it if they dont know how it works in the first place.

If you were an elected offical, and you see 1500 people out front protesting, carrying signs that condemn the government for taking away their "right to the pursuit of life liberty and happiness" what would you think?

Thats not something that can be "fixed" because its not part of the government setup. When you go and ask what the deal is, and people give you answers that dont even remotely come close to answering the question, what would you think?

If the city you are running has 10k people, and 1500 show up to protest and during the next election cycle, out of say 6k registered voters, only 900 vote, what would you think?

The legitemacy of our government is derived from the consent of the people. If those people consent because they are apathetic or just plain dont understand how it works, what would you think? Do you think the problems will be solved?

The catch 22 comes in now.

People in the government see there is a problem by virture of protests and what not, and get an idea of the general issues and attempt to fix it. In order to fix it, it requires a vote by the people. If a bill is created, placed on the ballot, and fails, what signal does that send to the government?

We the people have screwed we the people over, not the government. We the people have reduced our rights, not the government. We the people are 100 percent responsible for the mess we are in, not the government.

It will continue to be this way until people get off their butts, understand the government and how it works , and accept the fact that they MUST participate in government in order to exercise control over the government.

Absent that we will always have this stupid round robin game oif blaming the government because of ignorance and nothing gets done.

Originally posted by cryptographrix
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

"...strict interpretation of the Constitution..."

Are we really sure we want that? We could probably do a lot better just coming up with something new. There are a lot of things in that document "leaders," in general, have ignored and haven't even used (think fiscal responsibility), as well as a lot of things that got completely blown out of proportion (think 2nd amendment), and a ton of things that people have either misinterpreted or used to benefit individual groups instead of the whole (think Congressional pay/retirement after 1 term).

Not to mention that the language isn't common anymore.

Sorry when I said strict I meant going back to common sense and not a plain text reading. Going back to the 3/5 of all other peoples, women not being bale to vote etc is a bad idea.

Im in favor of smaller government, prioritizing federal respnoabilities to the people and letting the states do the rest. Hence chucking out a lot of extranious BS and going back the the basic framework and moving on from there.

reply to post by FissionSurplus


#1 dont sterotype
#2 I am not even close to being a government cheerleader
#3 Please read the op in its entirety and understand the point of the thread before lobbing accusations in my direction.
#4 Please read my posts before accusing me of supporting one view or the other.

Thank you

reply to post by Xcathdra


Hey XCathdra, Pleasure to see you around again. I think a better way to approach this is if you formulated an interpretation of the constitutional amendments and who, what, how, when and why they apply. That will certainly give a better understanding of where your argument is coming from.

My personal opinion is that we haven't really LOST any of our rights that are granted to us by The Constitution however the Federal government is certainly doing the best they can to infringe on the individuals rights. They have made significantly more difficult to speak out, express ourselves, protect ourselves and live happy productive lives. Their lies have perpetuated a culture that screws everyone else but themselves and only benefits those in power which means they don't represent us so we have lost the individual right to be properly represented by a state official in congress etc.

this is just my opinion but it's truly how many people feel.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
I have seen this comment used quite a bit by people lately and I am curious.

Exactly what rights have American citizens lost?
When did they lose those rights?

Im not looking for a fight or anything, but am curious as to what people are seeing in regards to this topic.

edit on 15-10-2011 by Xcathdra because: spelling

Maybe this will help you understand; the true nature of what it is you are asking.

A Right; as it has been said before in this thread, is not given by ANYONE!!! Therefore, it cannot really be taken away.

You can argue the faith aspect of a higher power as the source of ones Rights... or we can simplify it. Your RIGHT to freedom is inherent in you, because you are a conscious being.

Either way... GOVERNMENTS do not grant rights... but they damn sure can trample over them.

How about this argument:
Americans during the late 1800's lost more freedoms than we can imagine. Granted, not in the way that one would assume. You see, as a human being we have an emotion called Will; and like all emotions, it can be manipulated to suite a possible outcome.

At several key moments in our history, groups of individuals have used propaganda to sway the emotions of our people. By painting the picture as a "FREE" democracy, all errors ultimately will fall back on the people. After all, they're the ones making the decisions...right? WRONG!!!!!

For the past few hundred years, those living in the USA have been force feed FALSE choices. Ever since the Great Northern Occupation, [but not limited to this time period]; we have been living in a Matrix of lies...

...stitched and held together by the top 1% that so many are protesting against right now.

Under this False-paradigm, Rights and their purposes have been greatly blurred. After all... you can't have a slave with rights... kind of messes up the overall vibe of having a dictatorship.

But let's argue the concept of Rights: [to use your reasoning]

There isn't a Right to have fresh clean water.... so you get your choice of COKE or PEPSI!
There isn't a Right to have technology... so you get either an Abacus or a Mac.
There isn't a Right to health.... so you get McDonalds and Burger King

And seeing as how you don't technically own the King's land... you can choose either a Trailer park or an overly crowded apartment.

FALSE CHOICES!!!! Republican & Democrat, Chevy & Ford, CBS & NBC, FOX & NPR, Nuclear & Fossil-Fuel....
There is no freedom being expressed... when the choices are made FOR YOU!!!!

Observation:
Having the physical freedom to do something... is not the same as having the FINANCIAL freedom to do something!

As far as Rights go... what about the Right of Will? ...Intelligence? ...Love?

I would dare say that many of my peers on this site... INCLUDING the OP, have fallen prey to the propaganda machine that is the Conspiracy movement. We read more and consume much more information than your average Joe. Therefore, it is safe to say that we are the most targeted demographic for OPINION swaying materials.

And to bring back the original intent of your post... it would be to persuade others that America is not under attack and that our Rights are not being violated. [based of course on your defense of your position]

So... this is the part where I tell you which Rights we have lost...

1. The Right to Privacy.
2. The Right to Financial Equality
3. The Right to Body
4. The Right to Mind
5. The Right to Transportation

Looking forward to your reply...

I should post out of "fairness" that this reply has been carefully crafted to entrap you in an argument... Feel free to reply... but I feel like being cocky... so I will go ahead and declare CHECK.

Your move!

reply to post by HellstormRising


This argument is useless, those who want to lay down and watch the world turn can do just that if they wish, that is the right of an American. There is a new generation of Americans rising that will push right past them and strive for progression and the return to the values that once made this country the beacon for all the world to follow, the idea is finally catching on. Our corrupted system in its prime has given birth to a high degree of both idiots and intellectual revolutionaries, its sad to wake up every day in a huge collective struggle to weed out the morons and the greedy. Our time as a people is coming forth and no one is wanting to wait around while our glorious leaders and armchair political geniuses sit around debating stupid ideas and whoring themselves out to the richest corporate overlord who wants to cover the price of a new 12 year old girlfriend.

Let people believe what ever they want to believe, actions will dictate the course of humanity, not petty bull#. I'm not #ing around anymore.

reply to post by RSF77


I didnt take it as being harsh so no worries there man.

The government is not there to lead the people, its there to fulfill the vison of the people - their dream, not the ruling class.

People have this irritating ability to point out the problems, and point the finger, and then just stop and throw the towel in.

When the meeting ajourned back in the day when the blue prints of our government were created, a question was asked -

What type of government did the people get?

The response was telling -
A Republic, if they can keep it.

From day one, its been incumbent of the people to participate in government as the ultimate chcks and balance. The C and B for the 3 branches attempts to equal them out, with the ultimate power being reserved with the people.

Every 2 years in this country we get to over throw our government. The responses ive seen in this thread are passionate and valid, but need to be focused to be effective. If the US federal government fails, the American people fail. The world judges us on our actions as a country, not as a government, because in representative republics the government is the people.

As I stated, people make claims about rights being taken, but they cant explain what those rights are, or they give "rights" that arent rights at all, they gie blanket examples / statements that dont take into account the different levels of government.

We have elected officals who know what the constitution is, but have never taken the time to read it and understand it. I view that problem as a direct result of the people, the citizens, not know what it actually says either.

When an uninformed person is elected to office, its generally because the people who voted are also uninformed. We know this because people will state why they voted for an individual, and the predominant answer is because the person shares my same views or close to them.

In my view we haven't lost any rights, because the US government can't take away what doesn't belong to them in the first place.. However, what is happening is our duly or unduly elected, and many appointed officials are quite dishonorable and they are simply ignoring a person's rights and going on as if they suddenly have more power than they are entitled to.. They do not respect liberty, or justice, or the American way, and feel they are justified in making things up as they go along..

They are using threats and kickbacks and favors to all who will play along, and murdering or punishing those who do not go along with the deadly game they are playing.. We have seen exponential increases of cronyism with the last several administrations, and those administrations all used their sitting powers to embed and ensure the survival of the infrastructures put in place for their continuance, even after out of office.. Like "cells" of the industrial complex...

I could go on for hours, but I'de probably start to bore you... (Ted Striker from Airplane the movie)
(see what lack of sleep does)

We haven't lost any rights, but maybe we haven't been fighting for them like our forefathers did? They never stopped fighting for them, but they used a lot more bullets than we are currently using to defend our rights perhaps...

They can't take away what doesn't belong to them, but they can sure have zero respect for citizens rights... The sad part is, they will end up for the worst because of their own dishonorable actions and suffer extreme personal consequences.(just my prediction)...

Thanks

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
I hate to keep bringing up the drug war but most obviously is the plant. The Constitution does not explicitly grant me that right yet I do not have that right.

Since the FEderal consitution says nothing about it, it reserved to the states. Drug laws inside a state are state laws, not federal. Local officers are not empowered to enforce federal law, and vice versa (some obvious exceptions exist).

Several states have changed their plant laws, and right now the shodown is California. The actions there will end up at the Supreme Court because it is a states right issue vs the Federal Government retaining the right and responsibility for the general welfare of its citizens.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Regarding the 2nd, these states signed on to it when they joined. It is the "law of the land" and Mass should not be able to infringe the hell out it and use that infringement to toss me in jail for exercising it.

If you are legally allowed to carry a gun in say the State of Texas, would you be covered unde4r that law if you entered Mexico?

The full faith an dcredit clause requires states to accept certain documents from another state without question. The ability to prescribe what is and is not accepted though is reserved to Congress. There are federal laws that protect law enforcement, and there is a peaceable travel law that protects ordinary citizens who are lawfully allowd to be in possession of a fire arm while travelling through another state.

All the 2nd states is you have the right to keep and bear arms. It says nothing about regulating what that actually means, hence its reserved to the states, who have said if you live in Missouri, where open carry / CCW is legal, and you cross into Illinois where its not, you violated the law.

The 2nd amendment is what keeps people citizens instead of subjects. It does not say you can take your gun with you does it? Since it doesnt, its reserved to the states. you get the idea here..

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
I know how government works just fine. I've helped plenty of campaigns, gotten plenty of signatures, sat in on local House and Senate hearings. All that "democracy is great" crap.

I'll tell you exactly how government works. Government works as a vehicle for the moron mass to use violence and threats against the minority, whatever minority, to satisfy whatever "flavor of the month" whim the mass is concerned with. As a by product of this the manipulative wealthy paired with dynasty oligarchs get to balance a happy medium that both keeps them rich and in power and pacifies the moron mass into a comatose like state where without fail the minority gets trampled on, property taken away from, thrown in jail, and even killed.

which is the total fault of the American people. Its never ceases to amaze me that we can point out problems, yet cant seem to find the time to get the solution. To me thats no better than standing in a line, waiting to be executed.

The line is present, we all know whats at the end of it, there are no walls / obstructions or barriers to prevent us from leaving that line, and everone in line is complaining about the line and the result. They never take the time to stop and look around for the solution. They just resign themselves to their fate and go quietly into the night.

whats sad is we know that occurs, and yet here we are.

reply to post by RSF77


Don't take what I said the wrong way. I'm sick of it too. Once they've beaten us down far enough they will destroy our freedoms. I know this, you know this, most of the people at ATS at least have some semblance of knowledge on this but people are to stupid or greedy to do anything about it. I don't lay down and take it that is just my perspective on the atmosphere. People are pissed because of the erosion of the rights we still have and most of the people pissed off and doing something about it lack the understanding of the rights that we had in the past. It's tyranny via apathy of the people and that's what they're counting on.

This is one of the reasons I still go to this site because I still believe that there is a chance for the people to make the government finally represent them for the first time since the mid 60's and tell all the lobbyists and corporations to go somewhere else. The key is to get true representation in our government which is definitely not the case currently.