Question for those who say they are losing rights in the US

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


Yes, well pages ago I did lay down the challenge to name just ONE RIGHT the OP believes we still have..

I'd think we'd find if any were listed they would have been diminished to the extent of no longer being rights but instead mere privileges..

There is a distinct difference between the two and I honestly can't think of a "true right" we have left..

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Woah.. you are showing a severe lack in understanding, and I'm shocked to see an American that isn't a politician defend the patriot act.

not really.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Yeah law enforcement have the rights to do whatever they want in their free time, and if they choose to gather info on a group while they are at it then maybe it will hold up in court maybe it wont. That is completely different then infiltrating groups with suspicion without reasonable cause. That is domestic spying and it WAS illegal before the patriot act (and still is in most instance they just made an adjustment).

Actually its not. Under cover officers across the spectrum of law enforcement at all levels of government are guided by the same standard through case law and supreme court ruling. As far as holding up in court it depends on the situation and scope of investigation, including how the information was obtained and the manner it was obtained.

Domestic spying was NOT illegal prior to the patriot act. What you are confusing is methods used that were determined to be illegal, including refinment of the term entrapment, verification of confidential informant reliability among other things.

If a cop is going to go undercover to ifiltrate the Ku Klux Klan, they join the group using the groups standards, jsut as anyone else would. Anything they hear at those meetings can be repeated / recorded. If at some point the KKK finds out the person is law enforcement, or just decides they dont like a member, then that member is removed.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Then you go on in the next one and say it is legal to investigate someone based on their political affiliation, groups, etc. That was also illegal.

You are confusing investigation with prosecution. It is not illegal to investigate a person for affiliation to groups / politial parties / etc. If it were, then there would be no way to investigate or prosecute any person, since they belong to unions, large corporations, government agencies etc. An investigation revolves around the possibility of wrong doing, and not the confirmation of wrong doing.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
See I gave you what you asked for and you blew my mind by ignoring it.

I didnt ignore it. I went through and corected some of the misconceptions. This was my point, that people can list items, but unless they understand completely how it works, it causes issues.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Want to know how are rights are eroded? Things that WERE illegal to do are now LEGAL to do and the people that enforce the laws (you) think that is justification.

Dont get angry and dont speak for me either.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
How exactly do you think people lose their rights? Of course if something is illegal and they want to do it anyway they circumvent the law or write a bill/act to make it legal. We aren't talking about what is legal we are talking about the rights we have lost. Technically all that stuff is now legal, but it was illegal there fore those are rights we have lost.

They lose their rights based on ignorance of the system and a refusal to learn because some people have issues that the end result will not be want they think it should be. They lose their rights because they dont understand them. They lose their rights because they dont understand the various levels of government. They lose their rights because they dont know how their rights are applied, let alone which document they can be located in.

They lose their rights because they are apathetic about the syetem we have in place, and while we all complain about that system, the bulk of people do noting but complain, and stop there. They should know and understand the ppoint behind our system of government was to have a government that ruled by consent of the people. That would require the people to be involved and understand all parts / aspects.

We lose our rights because people dont care. Its more important to vote for American Idol than it is to vote for government representatives.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Get it?
Also you didn't address the end of the post. Did you have nothing to say on that?

edit on 25-10-2011 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)

Yes, I get it. I wish others did.

I thought I answered it -
The is it illegal for people to make their own decision question -

Loaded question - Any person can chose to do what they want - thats not in question. What they ont look at is the result of those decisions.

A persons individual rights end when they infringe on someone else rights. Do you agree with that?

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

We are merely arguing opinions..

Sorry, but I'm not a big fan of the Supreme Court either..
They are supposed to be for the people and unbiased but that is an unreasonable expectation given who selects them and who pays their wages..

This notion of "implied consent" is the new catch phrase of many Governments..

Many, including myself, would disagree..

But like I stated, just because it's law does NOT mean it's legal..

The term implied consent has been around for a looong time in this country. The Supreme Court is not there to rule for the people. It is there to ensure the legal process was fair and to address issues revolving around individual rights.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

Yes, well pages ago I did lay down the challenge to name just ONE RIGHT the OP believes we still have..

I'd think we'd find if any were listed they would have been diminished to the extent of no longer being rights but instead mere privileges..

There is a distinct difference between the two and I honestly can't think of a "true right" we have left..

And if you spent more time reading the responses to your post and less time trying to troll / bait and argue items that have been answered, you would have seen my answer to your question. Since you apparently ignored it let me give it to you one more time -

Freedom of Speech

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by backinblack

 

Exactly. He missed the point. The fact that those things ARE now illegal is the evidence of eroding rights he was looking for. He just couldn't see it through his eyes of the law.

If it's a law now, it must be right I guess. No matter who changed it, what it does, or why it does it.

Actually I have not missed the point. You are missing the point of this thread though. I can say it as many times as I want, but some people only hear what they want.

This thread is designed to look at the lack of knowledge and understanding of our government at all levels, the lack of understand and knowledge of a persons rights, how they apply, and where they are located at.

People cant expect to fix something if they dont know ho wit works. Its the same with people trying to make an argument by ognoring items of law they dont agree with or even understand.

reply to post by Xcathdra

And if you spent more time reading the responses to your post and less time trying to troll / bait and argue items that have been answered, you would have seen my answer to your question. Since you apparently ignored it let me give it to you one more time -

Pretty tired of your BS little insults but then it appears so are many others..
It's just your pathetic immature style..

And and thanks for FINALLY listing an actual right you think we have..

So let the good members comment..

Do they believe with have the "true right" of "freedom of speech" or has it been legislated against and diminished to the point of no longer being a right??

I know here in Australia we no longer have that right but I'll do a bit of research on the US...

reply to post by Xcathdra

This thread is designed to look at the lack of knowledge and understanding of our government at all levels, the lack of understand and knowledge of a persons rights, how they apply, and where they are located at.

Well all I can say to that then is that your OP was the most pathetic attempt I have yet seen on ATS to get someone's intentions across.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Yes.. but they couldn't join the kkk undercover without some suspicion of wrong doing in that faction. Whether it be gun running or whatever. Since the patriot act we have police infiltrating groups opposed to the war and protest groups. That isn't democracy and that isn't freedom. It isn't real freedom if you have the slightest worry that the expression of it could come back to bite you in the ass because then people start self limiting and the freedom whittles away as fear grows. Getting it yet or still trapped in cop mode?

reply to post by backinblack


It was answered in this thread - you missed it.

In the US we have aright to freedom of speech with some caveats. You cant go into a crowded theater and yell fire. Your right to freedom of speech is curtailed in some enviornments (school) and end when they infringe on the rights of others.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

This thread is designed to look at the lack of knowledge and understanding of our government at all levels, the lack of understand and knowledge of a persons rights, how they apply, and where they are located at.

Well all I can say to that then is that your OP was the most pathetic attempt I have yet seen on ATS to get someone's intentions across.

You are the Susan Luccia of ATS

reply to post by Xcathdra


I am not confusing investigation with prosecution.
Investigation without cause is wrong. Dead wrong and if you disagree then there is no reason wasting my time here.
When people are investigated for no reason fear is produced and freedom and rights are restricted by that fear.

You sound like you would prefer to sport a KGB uniform than a police officer and that is no lie.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

This thread is designed to look at the lack of knowledge and understanding of our government at all levels, the lack of understand and knowledge of a persons rights, how they apply, and where they are located at.

Well all I can say to that then is that your OP was the most pathetic attempt I have yet seen on ATS to get someone's intentions across.

You are the Susan Luccia of ATS

Judging by the posts I've read I'd say a lot more people than that..

I honestly think you believe what you say even when the evidence shows otherwise..

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


Mate, it's a waste of time..

It's bad enough when some think they are the only one in the place with a brain but it's worse when they themselves twist their own thread and then call others stupid for not staying on topic..

Me thinks feeding time should end and this thread drop into the great abyss where it belongs.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Yes.. but they couldn't join the kkk undercover without some suspicion of wrong doing in that faction. Whether it be gun running or whatever.

Actually they can. Out of curiosity, what law do you think exists that prevents it? A lot of investigations are intitated with reasonable suspicion, or a gut feeling something is not right. The prupose of an investigation is to rule out wrong doing and suspects. Just because an investigation is underway does not mean any laws were broke.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Since the patriot act we have police infiltrating groups opposed to the war and protest groups. That isn't democracy and that isn't freedom.

The patrio act is federal, not state. Secondly, being able to associate with whomever you want is democracy. Trying to limit a persons ability to join a group because outside of that group they work for the government, is in fact, what you are arguing against. Joinin a group under false pretenses is not illegal, for either the police or citizens.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
It isn't real freedom if you have the slightest worry that the expression of it could come back to bite you in the ass because then people start self limiting and the freedom whittles away as fear grows. Getting it yet or still trapped in cop mode?

Actually it is. If it were not freedom, and we didnt have freedom, then there would be no need to ifiltrate a group since they poilice could jsut roung the group up and make them disappear. They wouldnt need to infiltrate a group in order to punish someone for their politcal views or what they say, they would jsut be dragged out in the middle of the night.

With the police doing all of their surveillance, reports, stakeouts, infiltrations, its stuill incumbent on the prosecution to prove their case, not for the defendant to prove his innocence. Our system is not perfect, however I would still rather take my chances with it than any other countries legal system.

People dont seem to understand that even with all the laws and case laws, that when it comes down to it, a person is charged and tried based on the uniqueness of that particular case. The verdict also depends not so much on the law, but the eccentricities of the case.

As an example the verdict of Kaycee Anthonty out of Florida. Found guilty on 4 counts of liein to investigators and found not guilty of the death of her child.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
I am not confusing investigation with prosecution.

ooook

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Investigation without cause is wrong. Dead wrong and if you disagree then there is no reason wasting my time here.

Wrong is a matter of opinion, not a violation of any law. So if I dont agree with your point of view, im wasting your time? So your for freedom of speech so long as its acceptable to you? Your for freedom of assmebly and association, provided its on your terms? You admonish the government for a percieved restrictions on rights, yet your ok with doing the same thing to groups you dont agree with?

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
When people are investigated for no reason fear is produced and freedom and rights are restricted by that fear.

Your view on investigations is unique and im not sure what you consider an investigation to be. If your neighbor went o the police and said they saw kiddy pron in your house, would you want the police to investigate that? Joining a group and seeing what they are about is not illegal, and anyone can do it. Its up to the group to determine if you are a member or if they reject you.

Whether you are a cop, fbi or an electrical engineer the result is the same. They go, they see what its all about, and then decide if its something worth there time, or if its something they want to be a part of. Your argument of restricting investigations is based oin what you think the law should be, and not what it actually is.

Again this goes back to what im talking about with regards to knowledge of the law and government and how it all works.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
You sound like you would prefer to sport a KGB uniform than a police officer and that is no lie.

Ah yes - the name calling and accusations when a person doesnt agree with your version of paradise. You guys really need to get over that issue, insiting the government takes rights away while at the very same time you doing the exact thing you accuse the government of.

So any person who doesnt agree with you is KGB?

Thanks for proving my point.

reply to post by backinblack


This coming from the person who once argued ina thread that you were right because of the number of stars you got. When you become familiar with US laws and government structures and how it works, feel free to come back and challenge what im saying. So far all you do is come in, ask the same questions over and over, and derail the threads with your unique ability to ignorance above all else.

You dont live here in the US, you have stated you never visted here in the US and you have stated you never will.

Why are you participating in this thread if you have no deisre to learn? Is to to be a msartass and derail the thread or to demonstrate to people just how ignorant one person can be.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

Mate, it's a waste of time..

It's bad enough when some think they are the only one in the place with a brain but it's worse when they themselves twist their own thread and then call others stupid for not staying on topic..

Me thinks feeding time should end and this thread drop into the great abyss where it belongs.

An answer to my question.. Awesome.

Thank you for proving my point. You seem to be doing that more and more lately. Your arguments and posts remind me of Hamas and their moronic mindset. Ignorance above all else coupled with inability to think on your own or form your own thoughts. The paranoia you try to instill in others is a joke and nothing more.

Etiher stay on topic and participate in the thread, or go elsewhere and trool would you please.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Where do you think getting dragged out in the middle of the night starts?
Exactly like this. Eyes and ears everywhere. Surveillance and infiltration. Getting closer and closer to the crime until you cross that line to pre-crime, and then closer and it's rights violation.

Infiltrating a group in hopes of catching more bad guys may be well intended and it may stop a lot of crime, but violating the rights of everyone to stop a few more crimes will always be wrong.

To maintain freedom the way it was meant to be in America you have to just back away, even if it hurts and if a few crimes get by because of it, because maintaining freedom is more important and the path we are on will only get darker. You could lock everyone in a padded room and feed them three big meals a day, and they would be completely safe, but they wouldn't be free. That is when you realize in order to catch more bad guys we have taken away what made not being a bad guy so great. Then everyone is in the same hellish prison.

reply to post by Xcathdra

Thank you for proving my point. You seem to be doing that more and more lately. Your arguments and posts remind me of Hamas and their moronic mindset. Ignorance above all else coupled with inability to think on your own or form your own thoughts.

Etiher stay on topic and participate in the thread, or go elsewhere and trool would you please.

Man, myself and many others sure do get a laugh out of your posts..

Amazing though how you still managed to draw Hamas into the thread, then again it ain't really..

As for answering you, I did..
Learn to read and comprehend as you keep telling me and many others..
I said I'd have to research the US "freedom of speech" to see if it was still a right..
Did you miss that post??

As for staying on topic, that's pretty hard when the thread author keeps changing it..

Lastly, what's "trool"?

Lastly again, I'm over this crap, ciao till we meet again..

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Where do you think getting dragged out in the middle of the night starts?
Exactly like this. Eyes and ears everywhere. Surveillance and infiltration. Getting closer and closer to the crime until you cross that line to pre-crime, and then closer and it's rights violation.

Which right now is nothing but fearmongering by people who arent understandin their rights, the government, the various elvels of those government and how it all works. Its easy to claim something is taken away when you dont understand what you have and how it works.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Infiltrating a group in hopes of catching more bad guys may be well intended and it may stop a lot of crime, but violating the rights of everyone to stop a few more crimes will always be wrong.

There is no rights violation ivolved in infiltrating a group. Please explain what you mean by rights violation and what your perceive.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
To maintain freedom the way it was meant to be in America you have to just back away, even if it hurts and if a few crimes get by because of it, because maintaining freedom is more important and the path we are on will only get darker. You could lock everyone in a padded room and feed them three big meals a day, and they would be completely safe, but they wouldn't be free. That is when you realize in order to catch more bad guys we have taken away what made not being a bad guy so great. Then everyone is in the same hellish prison.

We agree on that point to an extent. The judicial system we have is designed in such a manner where it would rather let a criminal go that convict an innocent person. We know the systejm has issues because innocent people have been punished and in some cases put to death for crimes they never committed.

The goal is to learn from our mistakes, and not to over react by passing laws, like the patriot act (which Ihave gone on record as saying was bad and a knee jerk reaction to what occured at the time).

The goal of this thread was to get people to open their eyes and understand the big picture and not what they think just affects them. For people to ask questions and to stick around for the answers.To participate in government at all levels, to vote, and to contact your reps and let them know what you think.

Absent people doing tht, the can complain all they want about the government and its over reach, and thats as far as it will go, complaining.