Question for those who say they are losing rights in the US

reply to post by Xcathdra


My interpretation is that a "Right" is a natural thing..
Once you start issuing licenses, legislation or conditions then it is no longer a right but is a "Privilege"

I'd ask what true "Rights" you believe we still have and then we can work backwards to show if they have been destroyed or diminished to a state of "Privilege" rather than a "Right"..

reply to post by Xcathdra


I know how to read,thank you for the concern.The problem here is that you're trolling hard.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Apparently not.

Anything to add to the thread / topic or are you going to just call people names now?

speaking of trolling...

Do you think their is a fundamental lack of knowledge when it comes to the citizens of this country knowing how their government works? how their rights work? where to find the info?

edit on 19-10-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

My interpretation is that a "Right" is a natural thing..
Once you start issuing licenses, legislation or conditions then it is no longer a right but is a "Privilege"

I'd ask what true "Rights" you believe we still have and then we can work backwards to show if they have been destroyed or diminished to a state of "Privilege" rather than a "Right"..

You and I are on the same side of the argument in this thread. I posed the question in order to point out the lack of knowledge people have on how the government operates at all levels, what rights they have and how they work, and lack of knowledge about the Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

Our Government needs to be fixed, and the only way its goiing to get done is if the citizens engage with politics and once again and hold our government accountible. Anyone can list rights they think are being taken away or infringed on, however we need more than just a passing familiarity with them.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Great, but this was your entire OP..

I have seen this comment used quite a bit by people lately and I am curious.
Exactly what rights have American citizens lost?
When did they lose those rights?
Im not looking for a fight or anything, but am curious as to what people are seeing in regards to this topic.

So I'll ask again..

What true "Rights" do you think we have left ??

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Great, but this was your entire OP..

I have seen this comment used quite a bit by people lately and I am curious.
Exactly what rights have American citizens lost?
When did they lose those rights?
Im not looking for a fight or anything, but am curious as to what people are seeing in regards to this topic.

So I'll ask again..

What true "Rights" do you think we have left ??

Read the thread and you will find the remainder of the info. Or, read my first response to you, which answers your question.

Thanks.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Mate, I've seen you list NO "Rights" that you currently think we still have..

Please link if I've missed something..

reply to post by Xcathdra


I didn't call you names,i called you for what you are and if you have a problem with that you're free to call a mod to sort things out.I showed great patience with your nonsense only for you to tell me that i need to learn how to read. (nice and subtle way to piss people off)

As for your question (allthough you don't deserve an answer),i can't know that.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by mal1970

 

Yup - go back and read before dismissing.

thanks

Yup, what? Read, what?

BTW: Since posting I have read the entire thread. My reply does not change. I'd like to address your original question, so please respond to my post.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

I didn't call you names,i called you for what you are and if you have a problem with that you're free to call a mod to sort things out.I showed great patience with your nonsense only for you to tell me that i need to learn how to read. (nice and subtle way to piss people off)

As for your question (allthough you don't deserve an answer),i can't know that.

wow.. ok
I answered your question and it was not good enough.
I answered your question a second time and you get upset about it.

Does this topic scare you that much where it cant be discussed?

reply to post by mal1970


The purpose of the origional post was to highlight the lack of knowledge people have about their rights, how their government works at all levels, and how they fit into that. That was the intent behind the op question. People on this site constantly claim rights are being taken from them, and when you ask them to list they either arent rights, or they arent in the Constitutio n but Declaration of Independence.

If people make a claim and have issues backing the claim up, it raises the question that if they dont know the answer, how can they identify what to fix and how to do it?

reply to post by Xcathdra


It doesn't scare me.I'm the one who came in this thread in case you forgot.

You keep pulling my leg so i'll change my approach (i'm curious to see how you'll evade this one).Remember my post in page 25 where i numbered each of my questions to make things clear for you?All i'm asking is to copy each of your answers and paste em.Go ahead,quote that post of mine and then paste each of your answers for the hell of it,if you'll do so and there will be an answer for each of my questions i'll apologise to you for calling you a troll.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Mate, I've seen you list NO "Rights" that you currently think we still have..

Please link if I've missed something..

The list where I said not an individaul right was in response to several people listing off items that arent in any document. There are claims certain rights were violated when in fact there werent any. It comes down to not understanding the basics in terms of rights, government, how they work etc.

Anytime something occurs a person does not understand on this site, I see the same argument over and over - rights were violated. When info is provided to show how its not / expand on the subject, they turn defensive and continue making their argument.

I give them an A for persistence, but in the grand scheme, when it comes to fixing our government, that persistance is not going to get anyone very far. Im trying to get people to open their eyes and actually learn about this stuff so they can participate in government with full knowledge instead of this countries constant by the seat of our pants manner we do now.

An example is when the 4th amendment argument pops up. There are exceptions to the 4th, which are ignored by people who think that amendment is black and white, which it is not.

knowledge - participation - education - We must do more to prepare ourselves if we want our government back.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
You haven't answered snip for extra character space.

Actually, again, I did not. For some reason you are ignoring it.
- www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the 3rd time now ive answerd this post.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Question No1:
"I agree that lots of times people complain,shout and protest without even knowing what they really want or what they really fight but do you deny that their confusion is manufactured?"

Ill answer this with yes and no. Media and the political partyies stake out their agendas, and the people who subscribe to which party is given information that is tweaked / slanted / angled to one side or the other. However, its incumbent on the individual to do their due dilligence and find the answers instead of taking what they hear at face value.

There is nothing preventing anyone from doing research - they chose not to.

Whose fault is that? The media / parties putting it out there or the people taking it hook line and sinker? If the media / parties are doing the confusion game, then again, it falls back on the citizens to call Bs on them and force the change - yet they dont.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Question No2:
"You mentioned the 2 party system.Are they not the very same thing?"

Depends on who you ask. They are the same in the sense they fight for control instead of doing their jobs. Again, the people rubberstampd them back into office.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Question No3:
"Sure,most of the times they say different things but what are the results they both bring when they govern?Aren't those results the same?"

No - you find fundamental differences in military, social, fiscal and research spending. Yes - in terms of again the big picture both where neither party cant get anything done because they cant come together. Again, we allow it to happen.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Question No4:
"If what i have allready wrote isn't enough for you,then what about the educational snip... textu]"

Again depends on the school. We have some that are on top of their game, and others that are not. They need to learn the basics in the beggining, and then should be allowed to branch out after that in higher education. However, its not incumbent on the schools to raise children, thats the parents job.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Question No5:
"Do they help em become vital and energetic citizens of the society or just to become a part of the current system and roll with it?"

The system we have now will depend on location (good / bad districts). Its a bit difficult to fit in stuff like scien, math and US history when they are busy forcing them to learn about Islam while pledging allegiance to the MExican flag and sing their national anthem.

Again, something completely controllable at the local state and federal level of government if people would get involved and engage government.

Ultimately, again, its also incumbent on the parents to help raise their child. They should take an active interest in their childs educations / development. Schools are NOT parents.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Question No6:
"Well,aren't the people a product of our society?"

And that society is composed of the people. 300 million voices and congress has like a 12 % approval, and has for yesrs now.

I wonder where the issue is?

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Question No7:
"Aren't the people a product of the educational system?"

and the educational system is a product of the people. If they wont participate or make a stand when education declines, whose fault is it?

Originally posted by Oceanborn
These were my questions,snip for charater.

Or you could go back and read, where you would find my answers.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
A reminder: In my first post in this thread (page 19) i did say the people are to be blamed too but should they be blamed fully?Hell to the no.

HEll to the yes - The term your looking for is called personal accountability, and its lacking in this country, from governemnt all the way down to the people. The country belongs to the people. The people entrust members of that country to represent their interests. When that fails, its the people who must make the changes using the ballot box / communicating with their reps.

Anything and everything about government - priorities / military / diplomacy / legislation / police / fire / schools - All belong to the people. If you ran your own business, and the people you hire refuse to do the job, you fire them.

You dont reward them by giving them a pay raise, a bonus, lifetime healthcare and retirement by sending them back to do the job they refused to do in the first place.

reply to post by Xcathdra


First of all,this is the first time you answer my questions.You were unable to simply copy paste your answers because there weren't any.

It is up to the citizens but they're bombarded with the lies and actions of their government.In case those are not enough,add that they have to also deal with the prices going up,the paychecks going down (the goverment makes sure to keep screwing around with them),any possible family or personal problems,If they have health problems they'll have to deal with them and the hospitals themselves.Then you have the positive distractions tv,useless luxuries,following the current trends (hell,when it's about positive distractions,you name it) which are a must in our societies for reasons unknown (well,the constant brainwashing helps).The crime rate never drops (i wonder why) and the stress (which leads to mental and physical health problems,big or small) which is extremely high in our times.
Knowledge itself can't help you keep your eyes on the ball.

No - you find fundamental differences in military, social, fiscal and research spending. Yes - in terms of again the big picture both where neither party cant get anything done because they cant come together. Again, we allow it to happen.

It's the big picture we should look at.The small differences are just that,small.The direction that each party is giving to the country stays the same.


Both parents and schools are responsible for the children's education otherwise it's safe to say that schools are completely useless.As for the basics,critical thinking should be consided one of them (at least in my opinion).They should be sharpening the children's minds instead of teaching them a robotic behaviour (i give,you take etc).

And that society is composed of the people. 300 million voices and congress has like a 12 % approval, and has for yesrs now. I wonder where the issue is?

Yes,the society is composed of 300 million people who more or less chase their own tail every single day of their lives.Yes,it's their fault too but the ones that rule them fuel this situation themselves (and why wouldn't they since that's what gives em control over the people).

Or you could go back and read, where you would find my answers.

If there was something to find then how come you didn't copy and paste em?Because there was nothing to be found,simple as that.


About personal accountability,yes,i agree with you that the people lack that but you can't deny that the system helps in making the people into non-thinking,helpess babies.
Americans now protest,aren't they?They're trying to do something but they're so f*cking confused (like in most countries),they don't know what exactly to fight and how.

Also you have said lots of times that the people should participate themselves.That,by itself,is completely right but we have a problem here and i'll explain it with a metaphor: You can't enter a band of thieves while you're saying you're against thievery and you're not participating in those actions.Why?Because the actual thieves will simply gang up on you and one way or the other you'll be out of the game in no time (JFK anyone?).

reply to post by Xcathdra

I give them an A for persistence, but in the grand scheme, when it comes to fixing our government, that persistance is not going to get anyone very far. Im trying to get people to open their eyes and actually learn about this stuff so they can participate in government with full knowledge instead of this countries constant by the seat of our pants manner we do now.

Not a chance..
There are so many laws and so many new ones written every day that even lawyers have no hope of knowing them all..
Then there's the fact that most laws are deliberately written in a vague manner so that they are left open to interpretation..
Then the Supreme Court comes in to decide and even THEY rarely unanimously agree on anything..

What hope has Joe Citizen got???

Now I'd still like you to list what true "Rights" you think we still have..
If that's too hard then how about just one??

Originally posted by Oceanborn
First of all,this is the first time you answer my questions.You were unable to simply copy paste your answers because there weren't any.

Wrong again.. They were answered.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
It is up to the citizens ....snip for text length...........
Knowledge itself can't help you keep your eyes on the ball.

Actually check the FBI crime database for yearly statistics. You do have crime in some areas down, and some up. Their stats are compiled from FLEA and State/local law enforcement / public safety. I know Biden is going on and on about crime, but he is wrong.

To respond to your statement though, all are fair points, but we come back to the same catlyst - the people being apathetic / not wanting to engage government to make changes.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
It's the big picture we should look at.The small differences are just that,small.The direction that each party is giving to the country stays the same.

I agree about the big picture, and you do see important pieces of legislation get held up because some senator wants 500 million to test the flow rate of ketchup.
Again though, it comes back to the people and their expectations of how our government should work.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Both parents and schools are responsible for the children's education

The current school setup we have now are completely worthless. We have students who dont know anything about history, political sciene. We seem to be more concerned with teaching 3rd graders about lesbians and highschool students learning the mexican national anthem. This point goes directly to the root of this thread - lack of quality education.

The problem is the shift towards schools being more like daycares is flying down the hill now. Its up to schools to ensure students are given the skills they need to be productive members of society. Its up to the parents to oversee that education, as well as the schools their kids are in. School districts have elected boards, parent teacher conferences, yet like the politics at local state and federal, its rubberstamped.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Yes,the society is composed of 300 million people who more or less chase their own tail every single day of their lives.Yes,it's their fault too but the ones that rule them fuel this situation themselves (and why wouldn't they since that's what gives em control over the people).

Only because the people allow it. Look at this website as an example. You have a ton of people in here going off on the government left and right on how evil and corrupt it is, and thats where they stop. When told to vote we get the typical "my voted doesnt count" copout.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
About personal accountability,yes,i agree with you that the people lack that but you can't deny that the system helps in making the people into non-thinking,helpess babies.
Americans now protest,aren't they?They're trying to do something but they're so f*cking confused (like in most countries),they don't know what exactly to fight and how.

Again, the system does it because the people allow it. Everything about our government can be interacted with by the people, yet we dont bother to do it. We are not the poorest, although we are heading that way.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Also you have said lots of times that the people should participate themselves.That,by itself,is completely right but we have a problem here and i'll explain it with a metaphor: You can't enter a band of thieves while you're saying you're against thievery and you're not participating in those actions.Why?Because the actual thieves will simply gang up on you and one way or the other you'll be out of the game in no time (JFK anyone?).

Then you dismiss the club and you put new leaders in place.

Every single issue falls back to the people. It is up to them to step up, learn, educate, and to do whats needed to fix the mess we are in.

Simply talking about will not fix anything.
Hoping someone else cares so we dont have to will not fix anything.
Blaming anything and everything will not fix anything.

Holding ourselves accountible is step 1. Until we get it together, we wont be able to put anything else together.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by mal1970

 

The purpose of the original post was to highlight the lack of knowledge people have about their rights, how their government works at all levels, and how they fit into that. That was the intent behind the op question. People on this site constantly claim rights are being taken from them, and when you ask them to list they either aren't rights, or they aren't in the Constitution but Declaration of Independence.

And I've rebutted that our rights are not listed in either document and that those documents (at least the Con) state as much. The fact that the right to Life & Liberty is in the Declaration of Independence & not in the Con is irrelevant. It does not make them less of a right. As I have stated, you appear to have a very progressive view where you keep repeating "where is that right listed in the Con?" Several people, including myself, have repeated that the Con makes no attempt to 'list' our rights & very clearly states that it does not enumerate them. This you have repeatedly ignored.

The answer to "where is that right you claim to have?" will often be the right to Liberty, to be left alone, do as one chooses & self determination, given to mankind by Nature's God & referenced in the Declaration of Independence.

I think you are absolutely right with the trust of your arguments & the point of this tread in general. The exception is your exclusive interpretation of our rights.

reply to post by backinblack


Our government is not designed to get along, or to run quickly (smoothly though is another topic entirely). The reason for that is so the minority position is heard. The Supreme Court will rarely have unanimous decisions, but they do get them time to time.

As for the volume of legislation you have to take into account the various levels of government (local / township / county / state / Federal). Different legislation for different responsibilities of various governments.

As far as vague, even when we pass specific legislation all it takes is one judge to have a different interpretation, or case law was established in another case that affects the current ones etc. Absolute Rights and Absolute wrongs violate the concpet of letter of the law and spirit of the law.
Example - Its against the law to kill a person. However, if it is self defense, its considered a justifiable homocide. What that means is instead of using the murder law the PA declines to file charges. If you make the law to specific, it wont be able to take into account mitigating circumstances.

Joe citizen has hope.. They just need to pull the spine out of storage, dust off the Constitution and go and be heard.

Not sure why you keep coming back to the rights question since it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Anyways - Freedom of Speech

reply to post by Xcathdra

Not sure why you keep coming back to the rights question since it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Umm, because it was you thread title and OP.

Question for those who say they are losing rights in the US