No Bhuddist Freemasons?

Originally posted by df1

Surely no one will try to refute this photographic evidence.

I'm sure that's Illustrious Sir Siddhartha, of the Arabia Shrine in Houston, TX. He and I were throwing water balloons off the balcony of the Vegas Hilton during the Imperial Session in July, 2001... what a joker, don't let that stony facade put you off, the guy has a heart of gold.

Convention Monkeys, not just for Las Vegas anymore...

Dear Uncle,
Was that you? I happened to be in Vegas at that time and remember the incident. After all, the illustrious one is hard to miss. You are certainly the fun-loving monkey!
Had I known you were there, we could have watched the volcano erupt, or met for a cocktail.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Dear Uncle,
Was that you? I happened to be in Vegas at that time and remember the incident. After all, the illustrious one is hard to miss.

You are certainly the fun-loving monkey!
Had I known you were there, we could have watched the volcano erupt, or met for a cocktail.

Yes, it was quite the festive event until certain dour government officials imposed a moratorium on our gravitational exercises, oh well, at least we had our Masonic �Get Out Of Jail Free� cards handy.

Sorry to hear that I missed you, an evening of volcanoes, water ballet, pirate ships and imbibing fine spirits would have been capital!

Card Shark Monkeys, not just for card counting anymore�

I've resisted the tempation twice so far to say this but only in America could you find people who are completely ignorant on a subject and claim to be experts on it.
1. There is no "Supreme Being" in Buddhism.
I've just (for the sake of arguement) asked every member of my household and a couple of neighbors (yes, they are all Thai Buddhists.)
When I take my monks course next year I'll make sure to ask again just to be sure.
2. I Checked the World Fact Book and they note that they have excluded numbers form China (population 1.3 billion), Vietnam (80 million) and several other smaller countries like Burma and Laos.
Also noted is that due to Japan (population 130 million) using the Shinto religion in addition to Buddhism it has been classified as "other."
etc..

Originally posted by MrNECROS
I've resisted the tempation twice so far to say this but only in America could you find people who are completely ignorant on a subject and claim to be experts on it.
1. There is no "Supreme Being" in Buddhism.
I've just (for the sake of arguement) asked every member of my household and a couple of neighbors (yes, they are all Thai Buddhists.)
When I take my monks course next year I'll make sure to ask again just to be sure.

*sigh* Make sure that you ask them about this site:

home.btclick.com...

Let's see what real Buddhists (not your imaginary friends) have to say about God shall we?

"BUDDHISM AND GOD
Buddhism is sometimes said to be an agnostic religion. Certainly there is no concept of God as the vindictive, judgemental, time-subservient warlord of the Old Testament.

Buddhism has ethical objections to the idea of a God who throws infidels and sinners into everlasting torment. The Buddhist ideal is that of the Enlightened Being, who has vowed to save all sentient beings from their suffering.

But how does this view of God correspond to traditional Christian views, and in particular can it resolve the conflict between omnisicience, omnipotence and compassion?

Omniscient - Yes, all that ever was, ever will be, ever could have been, and ever might still be - are included within God. Their actualisation as experiences depends upon the choices made by sentient beings.

Omnipotent. -Yes, in the sense that all potentials are present. The driving power to make anything that could logically occur actually occur ('breathe fire into the equations') is available.

Compassionate Yes, the samsaric universe, for all its apparent faults, provides a path for deluded primordial mind to achieve enlightenment. Thus from the viewpoint of an Awakened Being, the universe is a perfect ground for advanced beings to rescue other migrators and bring them to enlightenment.

Judgemental - No, all beings will eventually be saved (Bodhisattva vow)

God within time or outside time? Neither - time operates within God - She is pregnant with possibility, and time consists of a series of instances of actualisation of those possibilities."

You are seriously kidding me?
You really think that Buddhism has a "Supreme Being?
This is just a wind up right?
I'd suggest you do a bit more Googling before you spout any more of this nonsense.

In Masonry, "Supreme Being" is defined very, very broadly. It can be taken to mean anything, really. If you think Muhammad Ali is a Supreme Being, then fine. That is up to you, really. It is not a question of a belief in 'God" qua God, but a belief in the kind of morality that might be consonant with a belief in God - that is, you have an exemplar as part of your religion, a person or being that embodies all that is good about whatever your faith might be. This is part of the reason you are not asked about the details of your faith.

It might be better to ask, "are you religious?" Morality and good conduct does not dependon a supreme being, and a religion need not have a supreme being in order fo rit to embrace good and virtuous ideals. Ahh, but Masonry recognzed that not everyone subscribes to a religion, but might STILL believe in some "supreme being" or spirit, or ukltimate reality.

Supreme Being in the Masonic sense DOES NOT refer exclusively to an omnipotent, omniscient, Creator of all things. A Supreme Being in the Masonic sense is an open, undefined term. It can be a deity, an "enlightened human", etc.

From the Encycolpaedia Britannica, 1988, Volume 2, pp. 602-603:

" . . . . When he (siddhartha Gautama) fainted away in weakness, he abandoned ascetic
practices to seek his own pathe toe Enlightenment. This he accomplished soon afterward,
and Siddhartha Gautama thus became a supreme Buddha (c. 528 BC.)"

The Buddha achieved a state of being that other men did not. This can be construed as "supreme." Therefore, the Masonic definition of "Supreme Being" allows the applicant to make a very personal determination of what it means to him. As a result, a Buddhist can indeed mold and shape the term "supreme being" to fit his beliefs. It is a beautiful thing, a phrase that is used in a question put to a potential Mason, but pressed no further. It is allowed to be shaped by a man's heart into what he chooses it to be. This is the ultimate mode of inclusion, but which still stresses the necessity of morality and faith.

In this light, the Buddha can be a "Supreme Being."

By the way, the "Grand Architect of the Unvierse" need not refer to a theistic deity, either. Since we do not know who or what the GAOTU is, it can be a force, a being, or some sort of ultimate reality. Buddha included.








[edit on 1-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by MrNECROS
You are seriously kidding me?
You really think that Buddhism has a "Supreme Being?

Not in the shallow sense of the word. But then shallowness seems to be your forte so I seriously doubt it's even worth bothering to explain it to you.

Why don't you try arguing with the link I posted above?

[edit on 1-9-2004 by Leveller]

So Dainichi Nyorai doesn't qualify ? BTW Grand Lodge of Kansas.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
You are seriously kidding me?
You really think that Buddhism has a "Supreme Being?
This is just a wind up right?
I'd suggest you do a bit more Googling before you spout any more of this nonsense.

Qualifies just fine.

Mahayana Buddhism teaches that there are three bodies (kayas) or modes of manifestation of the principal of enlightenment in the world:

1. the Dharmakaya (hosshin)
2. the Sambhogakaya (hojin)
3. the Nirmanakaya (ojin)

In other words, there are three way in which we may view the Buddha, The Enlightened One. The follower should always remember that these three are one truth, or in the words of the Shingon Tradition, "the three bodies are one (sanjin soku itsu)."

The Dharmakaya
The dharmakaya is that aspect of the Buddha which has eternal and unchanging existence. This is the foundation of being of all things in the universe. It is also the underlying foundation of being of the two other bodies of the Buddha. In the Shingon Tradition, the dharmakaya Buddha is given the name "Mahavairocana."

The Sambhogakaya
The word "sambhoga" means "reward" or " recompense." When a highly advanced Bodhisattva cultivates many religious practices, these practice -- which are likened to a seed -- bear fruit (have their reward) in his attainment of Buddhahood. This state of his Buddhahood is the body of a Buddha known as sambhogakaya. In his sambhogakaya form, the Buddha appears as very large, in his glory, surrounded by hundreds of attendant Devas and Bodhisattvas, and dwelling in his Pure Land. Two examples of sambhogakaya Buddhas are Amitabha, who lives in his Pure Land, Sukhavati, and the Buddha Aksobhya, who lives in his Pure Land Abhirati.

The Nirmanakaya
The Sanskrit word "Nirmana" means " a phantom" or " a ghost." A form that is ultimately unreal, temporary, and without absolute substance. This form that the Buddha assumes, for a while, in order to teach sentient beings. A form that he assumes in order to resemble those persons he is preaching to. This is the form of the historic Buddha, the Buddha �akyamuni. The real form of the historic Buddha �akyamuni, who was born in North India, who attained Enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree, and who died at the age of eighty, is actually that of the dharmakaya.

In Shingon Buddhism, many buddhas are enshrined as the Chief Deity of devotion. These different buddhas each have their own unique vows and powers to help. In other words, they lead us to salvation through the power of their vows and compassion to save all living beings. For example, Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva (Kannon Bosatsu), Bhaisjyaguru Tathagata (Yakushi Nyorai), Acala Vidyaraja (Fudo Myoo), Shoten (Ganesa), and also Kobo Daishi can all be enshrined as the main deity; and therefore Shingon temples have a variety of main deities.

To explain it this way might lead one to think that the deities in Shingon Buddhism are confusingly unsystematic, but actually this is not the case. As indicated by the Vajradhatu and the Garbhakosa Mandalas that are in Shingon temples, there is a system and an interconnectedness to the deities, and it can be said that the main objects of worship in Shingon Buddhism are these two Mandalas.

However, when we meditate on these Mandalas, we note that Mahavairocana Buddha is at the center, and that surrounding him are all the buddhas, bodhisattvas, and devas that are protective deities.

Each temple, according to its past relationships and lineage, enshrines a certain deity in the Mandala as its main deity. In all matters, Shingon Buddhism takes these Mandalas as its foundation, and the overall main deity is Mahavairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai), while all of the many other buddhas are emanations of Mahavairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai), which is the absolute Dharma Body, and manifest themselves in the world in order to enlighten all living beings.

Therefore, even though in Shingon Buddhism the overall main deity is Mahavairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai), it is all right to have an affinity for another buddha and call it one's main deity. Although the main deity in each temple is different from each other, in Shingon Buddhism the Mandalas are the main tenets, and there is a deep significance to the fact that people can establish their own respective deity for salvation and as their main deity. However, we do need to touch briefly on the matter of Mahavairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai) as the overall main deity and Kobo Daishi as the main deity in Daishi belief.

The first virtue of Mahavairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai) is his universal radiance that dispels the darkness, and his ability to destroy suffering and despair. His second virtue is that his radiance has neither beginning nor end, and the light of his wisdom is like the sun, which always shines regardless of whether it is day or night. His third virtue is his ability to enlighten living beings, and the greatness of his compassion expresses the fact the he is the parent of life that continues to nourish all living beings at all times. Kobo Daishi, whom we refer to as the Daishi and enshrine as a main deity, contains all the virtues of Mahavairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai) and saves all living beings as a Bodhisattva eternally alive.

Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents

Last modified 6 September 2002.

(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)

Christianity: 2 billion

Islam: 1.3 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million

Buddhism: 360 million

Chinese traditional religion: 225 million

primal-indigenous: 150 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

I think the main problem people here are having is quite common - The Bhudda was a philosopher and teacher, not a "divine being" in the Western sense.
He attained enlightenment finally by taking a new direction after failing by following all the old ways.
There are many books and resources on this subject - just go read them.
The Bhudda is definatally NOT "The One True God" in the Masonic sense, I've even been told such by Masons here in Phuket.
BTW if any of you want to discuss it in person here in Phuket, feel free to post me an invite at [email protected] and I'll arrange for one of the Nuns at the local temple to give you the full run down, she speaks perfect Oxford English and will be more than happy to fill you in.

Originally posted by MrNECROS

The Bhudda is definatally NOT "The One True God" in the Masonic sense, I've even been told such by Masons here in Phuket.

Firstly, you have no idea whatsoever what the "Masonic sense" is.
Secondly you haven't been told anything by masons.

Like I said earlier, you would look at things with shallowness. You've proven me correct with your comment of a stereotypical "Western" god.

Let's see some links that prove there are Buddhist Freemasons shall we?

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com...

masonicthemes.com...

www.la-mason.com...

www.masonicinfo.com...

www.townonline.com...

And I guess there are no "native" Freemasons in Thailand huh?
This one really puts you to shame Necros.

www.pattayamail.com...

"Many Freemasons of different nationalities, religions and races were the distinguished guests last Saturday, to celebrate, together with Lodge Pattaya Westwinds, the Installation Harmony of the new Right Worshipful Master, Xanxai Visitkul and his office bearers."








[edit on 2-9-2004 by Leveller]

Don't mean to be funny but this guy's name is not Thai (Xanxai Visikul)
There is no "X" or "V" sound in the Thai language or used the official translation script, maybe his is Malay-Chinese or Sri Lankan?

Please don't try to BS your way around on this one, I doubt anyone in this forum can read and write Thai.

Also note that this is a "foriegn" Lodge just like the one in Phuket and is affiliated with a Grand Lodge in either the UK or Malaysia.

Anyway I never said there are no Thai Masons, in fact I told you I know 3 of them, all of whom profess a secondary religion.

[edit on 2-9-2004 by MrNECROS]

It really doesn't matter, Necros.

You're trying to prove that Masomry is an exclusionary, discriminatory institution.

It is. Ther are rules. There are codes of conduct. Women, for instance, are not allowed. They have a separate body they can join. Not everyonce can be Mason. You can't be a felon, for instance.

All religions, however, are welcomed. There is no Masonic law or principle that says Buddhists or Taoists or what-have-you are not allowed. It IS up to the entrant, however, to reconcile himself with the notion of a "Supreme Being." It is not up to Masonry to address the concerns and "yearnings of the soul" of everyone who wants to apply. If a Buddhist, who is clearly allowed into tthe Craft, cannot in his faith find some allowance, some interpretation that makes him confortable with the idea of a "Supreme Being", then that is a shame. Masonry, however, will move forward allt he same.

The reasons for the existence of the "Supreme Being" requirement are explained above.

It is exclusive and discriminatory - your own remarks indicate this but you fail to see them as such.

I don't fail to see them as such . . . . . I JUST DON"T CARE. I don't find it objectionable.

It is an organization for men. Not every man is allowed to join. You need to follow certian rules of conduct.

I accept all this.

Next.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
It is exclusive and discriminatory - your own remarks indicate this but you fail to see them as such.

Yes, discrimanatory in the fact that it doesn't allow criminals and atheists to join.
Big deal.

Apart from those two categories, you won't find another single organisation in this world that has such an open door policy.

[sarcasm]
Will all criminals and athesists who wanted to be Masons please forgive me ?[/sarcasm]

Mista(Meeee-sta) Necros, I do not lie when I say the only Mason I know just happens to be a buddist. I really don't care how Buddist, Budda, Buddism, whatever is spelled, I am not one, but a pebble person. We have no supreme being, but about 6.3 billion of them. For every person can make their choice. But we do have people with "supreme powers", the Pebble People. They live in Death Valley which explains why those rocks move, and they explain why socks dissapear in the laundry. But guess can't become a Mason, and no way a buddist, don't like the whole Karma thing, scares me.