Europe Debt---The Web of Mess

Have you ever seen a spider web before and said that's a beautiful work of art. Well that's exactly what the European deb debacle looks like and it is not a beautiful work of art. i know everyone keeps wondering to themselves what's the BIG deal about the European financial crisis? I mean C'Mon they can't possible bring down the entire world right?

Oh that's where it is farther from the truth. You see everyone in Europe owes each other, it's a spaghetti mess. So if one of them fall, they all fall in Europe and since the United States owns their debt, we will fall. Then China who owns most of our debt and Europe's debt would fall. The entire world would fall after that and we might never get back up again.

If you don't believe me, here is a site that shows all of Europe's crisis and why it's so feared.

Europe Financial Crisis

Anyone want to push the Greece domino over and see what happens?

reply to post by TWISTEDWORDS

You know what will happen? Nothing. Big fat nada. All they have to do is delete some numbers in a computer for which the money itself doesn't actually, physically exist anyway and Presto Hey! Problem solved. The sun will still rise, the birds will still chirp and the leaders will still be leaders. I think the only people rally worrying about this are the bankers and politicians themselves.

I would gladly push the button.

PS Saw this vid in another thread on here. Its worth reposting.

reply to post by LightSpeedDriver


So how come no one has deleted it then?

Looks like a pentagram too.

(just saying)

reply to post by TWISTEDWORDS

Probably because they are still hoping they can fool us all to go for it, steal our money and that of the coming generations while these "numbers" take 30 years or more to get repaid. Iceland told the banks where to go, even after their own government tried to push it through again after having a referendum. I don't think they all jumped into the sea just yet...

Originally posted by TWISTEDWORDS
reply to post by LightSpeedDriver

 

So how come no one has deleted it then?

Because people actually have investments on the debt. Therefore the above poster is partially incorrect with his assessment of the situation, though I think he is correct in that they can kick the can down the road so to speak, but an endgame is inevitable.

Ignoring the whole debt situation for a second...

The EU is the largest trading partner of the USA.

The EU is Chinas largest market.

The EU is Russias main trading partner.

The EU is the largest trading partner/market for places like Turkey, Iran, Israel and Egypt and the second largest for places like Australia, South Korea, Canada and Mexico.

Etc, Etc.

European Trade Commission - Countries.
ec.europa.eu...


If the EU crashes and burns I don't think anyone will escape unscathed as a domino effect comes to mind. Imagine the fallout in China if their largest export market dries up? the same can be applied to Russia, Turkey, Israel, Iran etc..

In my opinion the economic fallout would drag everyone down..

dont know but that chart looks like the federation of planets is fixing to goto war,'
To much start trek

reply to post by surrealist

People? What people? Why would any sane person bet on debt? Or invest in debt? I don't think too many human beings when asked personally if they would like to profit from the misfortune or financial failure of others would go for that. I always do a little Yo Momma thing in my head to help me decide, but I use My Momma. Would My Momma do it? No? Then I probably shouldn't either. Wrong is wrong regardless of profit and investing on debt is just wrong. Thats what bankers do though I guess.

reply to post by thoughtsfull

All this "trading partners" is imho just political rhetoric to not make any new decision to "change things". So what that X is Y's largest trading partner? Trade will still happen one way or another when we all need the goods. I think we have all lost sight of a few simple but basic facts.

What is the cost of doing business?

For a consumer at least 10 times what the thing in question actually cost to produce including profit in some cases. Due mainly to the whole structure of large businesses and corporations.

Company X makes a product. This needs to be exported. From the exporter it goes to an importer in the receiving country. This then gets passed on to a distributor. The distributor then sells it on to a wholesaler who then sells it on to a retailer. The retailer sells it to the consumer. How many price hikes have just occurred? And how much nice extra tax does the government get at each step of the way? Import duties, business taxes, fuel taxes, and possibly an extra tax depending on the product in question. Its so bass-ackwards its unholy.

reply to post by LightSpeedDriver


The whole issue is as I see it, is if the EU goes pop then trade in goods will be disrupted in one of the worlds main hubs, and without doubt there will be knock on effects as there is no one else to fill the void...

It is these real effects on the supply train that runs around the globe that bothers me most due to there impact on our everyday lives. I believe they could lose trillions in digital money and we the people could take absorb that, but we the people won't be able to absorb the scale of job losses that a crumbling EU would present.

I am in no means defending the EU as I see this form of globalisation that lacks any real resilience risking disaster. I am however attempting to point out (perhaps poorly as usual) how far up the creek we have been taken.

reply to post by thoughtsfull

I do see what you are saying but again, what is really involved with all this trade going on? They send a ship, we send a ship, all is well and balanced. The only thing missing is the money but what IS that money actually? Its just numbers in a computer. Now, if we were to just pay for things properly, hard currency or say..a bag of gold even then there doesn't have to be a problem at all.

I know you aren't defending and you are doing quite well but I just don't see some of these "problems" that others do and I think more in terms of solutions than problems, or at least I try to. I see the problems as the reason no one wants to make a change and that is unacceptable and I think more people are beginning to see things more clearly and less complicated.

At the end of the day, if a few large and largely unsustainable businesses need to go out of business, it won't be too long before someone else moves in to fill the hole in the market.

One of the biggest problems is this idea of continual growth imho. Constant growth is not good, realistic or sustainable, whether its financial or otherwise. We need to kill this idea of "more" and be happy with enough. But big business always wants more, and somehow its never enough. A bit like government really. I mean, why would a government make circular loans for money they can't repay? And still bang on about the need to curtail public spending? Maybe because they are part of the scam? The ex Minister President or whatever they call it here (Holland) was in the paper today, showing off his shiny new Porsche. Tony Blair now works for a bank. Yeah, something ain't quite right.

I'm pretty sure no nations are going to collapse....

... they will go to war before they collapse.

reply to post by LightSpeedDriver


I certainly have to agree with you the issue is not long term, But there are 2 issues in my mind that could kick us into the gutter.. We have become (for the worse) a consumer based society and we have an army of box shifters to supply this habit, and like all junkies we need to find a way to end the addiction without destroying ourselves in the process.

I understand what you are saying, those at the top look the other way on this little addiction, heck they even fuel it by allowing the corporates to decide how to implement legislation, like the environmental ones that remove products from the second user market thus forcing the addicts to buy ever newer products with shorter life cycles.

We are on a dangerous spiral, we need to shed this addiction with as little pain as possible, but I don't think that is possible and far to many people are employed in delivering that habit for it not to have major consequences, especially as we don't have a plan B.. (to be honest I'm not even sure they have a plan A)

So therein lies my issue, the myriad of jobs, profit and tax that our addiction provide will be lost and we have no resilience to deal with that loss in the short term.

I know we will drag ourselves out of this pit, we have done it before and will do it again some time in the future but for the here and now I would rather it be as painless as possible, and it won't be painless if the EU crumbles, however we probably won't face up to our addiction unless it crumbles.

Edit to add:
I deliberately missed out the whole consumer credit/debt aspect, mostly to keep thing clear in my mind as adding that just makes things a whole heap worse than they need be.

reply to post by thoughtsfull

You are absolutely right, a nation of consumers. We have always been that to a certain extent but I would guess since the post WW2 baby-boom and resultant population expansion, some people have worked even harder to make sure that:
We have to work longer hours for less
We have to travel greater distances to get to work
We have less money to buy even the essential things
Governments say year after year that we all need to economise (while they still use money like its water)
More media coverage about every tiny little thing (overwhelm people with information)
Wars, famine, designer crime, drugs, prostitution, the decline of society in general, just to keep the attention divided.

The list could go on and on I am sure but I think we have been manipulated. To buy things we don't need, houses we can't afford and holidays we shouldn't be taking. (I am 40, unemployed, have never owned a car or my own house and the last time I was on holiday was um...2001)

I don't know if its so much a "look the other way" mentality or just a "we have the power so we will make money anyway" one but regardless, a lot of things are very wrong. And I think they like to use the word "We" when really they mean themselves (TPTB) rather than the population as a whole. I live in a country I cannot vote in so hav no say here but its the same joke here it is everywhere. One vote every 4 years and that is the total sum of your "say".

Being the total conspiracy nut I believe they have a contingency plan for just about every eventuality out there, its just getting people to believe in that plan. Most people are too busy worrying about their jobs/families, etc to have time to really think about how this all works, or might work. I am no expert and not a particularly intelligent person either but I know I couldn't do a worse job than any politician out there.

If we were to do away with or freeze the money just for a little while but all still keep doing largely what we are doing, things would be just fine. Buses would still run, bread would still be baked, crops would still be harvested. The myriad of jobs and profit you mention goes mainly to a select few eventually, as far as I can tell. Large property owners (corporations), large banks, the government and its various departments, the large supermarkets, with a sprinkling of shiny gadgets and cars to keep the cattle happy. We live in cages, work in slightly bigger cages, and travel in cages. Ok, some of the cages have comfy chairs and nice decor, but still, its a box, a cage, a way of keeping you in one place doing nothing much fun for the profit of another.

Here's a little fact we all kinda forgot in the malaise. The European Union actually started life as the European Economic Union (1958). No central bank, no central court, no central legal system. They saw it kinda worked and expanded their base of operations to turn it into a true State. If that State crumbles, there are still all the countries that make it up left. No borders changed and not much in the internal politics of each member country. Not all European countries are members either but most are. At worst we might need to go back to our original currencies. That's the worst thing I can see happening, needing our old money again. Time will tell but I am not expecting any kind of change soon. The UK never adopted the Euro, I wonder what they know the rest don't...

PS Good points by the way, and a nice way of writing that makes it easy to read. Thanks

reply to post by LightSpeedDriver


I think all your points are very well articulated Sorry to hear things are not going as well as they could be, I know how that feels, been there myself a few times, Although I admit I was very lucky to have managed to dig myself out of the mire.

I went from being a well respected master-craftsman to hitting a brick wall in the 90s recession and needing to re-evaluate my life (ran a few Charity shops during that time) ended up getting myself on my feet but really dislike what I am doing as I feel I am fuelling this monster, I guess like the EU it is time for another adjustment in my life, in the meanwhile I wish you all the best

Originally posted by TWISTEDWORDS

since the United States owns their debt, we will fall.

Now you are confusing me, please can you show me how the US owns all the European debt? It doesnt even say this on the website link you posted. So I would really like to know where you got this info from..

Here is an extract from NYT about the exposure of banks to Italian Debt:

"European banks have total claims and potential exposures of 998.7 billion euros to Italy, more than six times the 162.4 billion euro exposure they have to Greece, according to Barclays Capital. European banks have 774 billion euros of exposure to Spain and 534 billion euros of exposure to Ireland.
In the United States, banks are also more exposed to Italy than to any other euro zone country, to the tune of 269 billion euros, according to Barclays. American banks’ next biggest exposure is to Spain, with total claims estimated at 179 billion euros."

www.wealthson.com...

In all, the US Treasury owes foreigners and foreign governments $4.514 trillion dollars of which 346 Billion is owed to the UK. Japan has Total Holdings of US Treasuries: $912.4 billion, China has Total Holdings of US Treasuries: $1.16 trillion.

www.businessinsider.com...-all-the-treasury-owes-foreigners-and-foreign-governments-4514-trillion-dollars-18

The US does not own all the European debt.

PEACE,
RK

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
I'm pretty sure no nations are going to collapse....

... they will go to war before they collapse.

I believe it's more likely people will go on strikes and even might riot, at best overthrow the whole government and install something new. The latter I'm not sure of, just hoping. What's most frustrating is the lack of action being taken. It's like everyone knows it's there, something needs to be done but no one wants to be the politician who will be remembered as the one cutting on everything. Everybody wants to believe it'll be allright, there's light at the end of the tunnel, someday we'll get out of this mess.

So in my country politicians cut on easy targets like the military, since there hasn't been any real conflict since Indonesia, other than that my country played minor roles in support of US/EU troops in several conflicts, which we didn't need to and in Serbia's case created a lot of troubles.

All the while the retirement age went up and it's likely in 10 years from now it will still be going up as more people are needed to work and pay taxes instead of not working and depending on retirement funds, which are under pressure due to miscalculations in the past and wrong spending.

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
You know what will happen? Nothing. Big fat nada. All they have to do is delete some numbers in a computer for which the money itself doesn't actually, physically exist anyway and Presto Hey! Problem solved. The sun will still rise, the birds will still chirp and the leaders will still be leaders. I think the only people rally worrying about this are the bankers and politicians themselves.

I would gladly push the button.

This touches on the "dirty little secret" of the international debt situation.

The politicians and media outlets describe the situations as though "Greece owes Spain x amount of Euro" as if there was a loan from the public central bank of Spain to the public central bank of Greece... NOT SO.
The money is owed to third party, for profit, private banks in spain. (Otherwise the "you owe me $10, but I owe you $5, therefore just give me $5 and we're good" rule could be applied across the board!)

Just like credit card companies, private banks profit from interest, and make money when people have outstanding debt to them, and NOT when they have paid it back in full. (In fact, credit-card companies call those who pay there monthly bills in full, regularly, avoiding the penalty of interest "dead beats"... how is that for banker logic!)

The so-called bail-outs only manage to keep this interest making debt on the private bank's balance sheets while shifting the bill to the tax-paying citizenry. Once again, eliminating any risk to the private bank and, for a little while longer, guaranteeing more interest-baring payments.

An easy solution would be to have public banks with clear mandates to benefit the countries' citizenry, who's profit from interest would go back to the government. (supposed to represent the people, but that is why there are so many people marching in the streets of the world... and probably for another thread!)

Just look at the North-Dakota model... Bank of North Dakota.

Of course, because bankers are pulling the strings of our politicians world-wide, this is not a likely scenario in the short term, however, it definitely belongs written somewhere on the protest signs of the marches increasingly popping up all around!

the Billmeister

p.s.
Sheesh, I am quite long-winded today... sorry!