Should colleges & universities be held accountable by younger protestors?

Let's start with a disclosure: I did not go to college/university. I was home-schooled through high school, and that's it for me. I'm not bitter about it or jealous about it -- especially when I look at the debt loads of some of the protestors! In fact, I think I can safely breathe a sigh of relief that I "dodged that bullet."

As I look at the protestors, it seems to me this represents the end of the "college bubble," and this is something that is not being picked up on in the discussions I've seen. Many of the younger protestors are angry because they have huge debt loads and no jobs. These people went six-figures into debt to spend 4, 5, or sometimes more years for an undergraduate degree that now appears useless. Some spent even more time getting their Masters or PhD, which they are now discovering is equally useless.

I sometimes hear the argument: "College is for learning/self-enrichment, not jobs." Well, this may be the case but guess what? In the real world people need to eat, and "self-enrichment" doesn't put food on the table! I think its safe to say most people go to college with the expectation they will be able to use what they learn in some kind of practical capacity.

The question becomes: Why are so many bright people spending years when they could be most productive studying useless things that lead to no jobs? Why isn't the curriculum reflective of a changing world? Is college guilty of some kind of "malpractice" ? Should colleges be held accountable? it seems to me they have failed an entire generation in their fundamental mission to produce adults that are able to take leading roles in society.

Some people might argue: "Buyer beware!" and say that it is the kids' own fault, or the parents' fault, for not seeing this truth. This may be true to some degree, but don't the colleges and universities share some of the blame?

It seems to me that the change that is necessary will have to come on many fronts - business, governement, and also the educational system. I truly believe that the younger protestors have not been well served by schools they trusted to prepare them for their future, and that the schools should be held accountable.

What does ATS think?

Originally posted by Partygirl
I truly believe that the younger protestors have not been well served by schools they trusted to prepare them for their future, and that the schools should be held accountable.

What does ATS think?

I think that if you have to go into that kind of debt for an education, then you couldn't afford it and shouldn't have done it in the first place. There are many lower cost state universities that provide a good education. It's not the schools fault that people are willing to bet six figures that they don't have in the first place on landing a very high paying job.

I have found that it all levels out eventually anyway, at least from my own perspective. I went to college and then graduate school but at state universities. The people I know that started work right out of high school were making money the whole time I was in school. However, when I graduated, I started out making more than they did when they started and I've been able to go further than most of them (not all) in my career. My parents paid for my college education and I will pay for my kids college education, just as I expect them to pay for their kids college education. My friends who didn't go to college, don't plan on paying for their kids to go to college, so they will have to decide whether to go into debt to go or to just go to work and not go to college as their parents did.

My friends who didn't go to college are just as happy as I am with my life and I am just as happy as they are.

The difference is when people buy things they can't afford, as is the case with the six figure college loan debt many sign up for in the hope that it will deliver a very high income job. It is a gamble that some, apparently are willing to do. Would you blame the casino for a gamblers loss on a bet?

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

If it has been a while since you looked at state university tuition rates, I'm afraid you are in for a bit of a shock! Arizona State University tuition was projected to go up to $10k/year this year - luckily it hasn't gone quite that high, but I think it is hovering between 9 and 10. My son has a Provost scholarship that pays $7k/year at ASU and I pay the difference between what his scholarship covers and the rest of his expenses for tuition, dorm, books, and the required meal plan (although there are hardly any options for on-campus meals at his campus), and it is coming to nearly another $7k/year out of my pocket, I kid you not! That is ONLY for the remaining tuition, dorm, and meal plan - he works to have spending money and other non-college expenses (like laundery, fuel, etc). His expenses, all-told, are going to be more than what I had to pay for a private university (Regis University) to complete my degree 17+ years ago.

OP, yes, I think you are right - I think we are seeing the bubble begin to collapse.

College is a goddamn scam. 22 year olds owing more money then they'll ever see within the first 5-6 years of their post college life, IF they are lucky.

As someone who took years to find decent work after graduating with significant debt back in 2002, I identify with these kids. They are angry. I was angry, but thankfully I was able to catch on at a few places and life improved. They aren't as lucky.

I cannot blame the kids. When I was 18 and heading off to school, i was brainwashed with thinking that let me bust my ass, get these grades, get this degree, and things will fall into place, debt be damned. It isn't that easy, nor should anyone think that it should be, but what I'm seeing now is beyond ridiculous.

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
Would you blame the casino for a gamblers loss on a bet?

No I would not.

But the casino does not have a stated purpose and socially-recognized mandate to prepare the next generation for leadership roles.

College does. There is a difference.

Society can function without casinos. Can it function without higher education? Perhaps, but then the current system needs to be replaced or seriously reformed. Which is kind of the point of this thread to begin with.

reply to post by illuminatislave

Yup yup. Here's another sad commentary - we have for lo-these-many-years been frustrated with certain folks (family and teachers) for pushing our kids to always enroll in the AP and Honors classes, because these days that doesn't get you anything! All it does is if they are in the supposedly (or is it gratuitously?) gifted range, but still are not the top kids in the class, it just drives down the kids' GPA's (in comparison to all the other gifted kids) such that if they had instead taken the regular classes, they would score in the top x percent and their class rank would be very high (and that counts bigtime, parents!). It is wonderful to learn for the sake of learning, but when it detracts from kids' ability to get accepted or obtain a scholarship... Um... How wonderful does all that transfer of knowlege feel?

I know quite a few recent college graduates and they have all been able to secure good jobs they would not have otherwise been able to get. (as in with no education) This is in California.

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman


You know what? I have heard for decades that people who went to college and got a law degree ended up flipping burgers. How does something like that happen? I have heard and seen all kinds of ads around that say that studies show that a college degree can add hundreds of thousands of dollars to your lifelong income, that college degrees give you an edge in the job market. But so many degrees are so specialized that it can be difficult to find exactly the niche in the job market. And many jobs are even more specialized than the degrees. But now our jobs are going overseas so a person with a new degree in IT has to compete with Indians for that call centre job. It's frustrating. I heard commentary on a talk show about this very thing, at the beginning of the recession, that college students were getting out of school and cant find jobs in their field. It is a reality.

Edit; took out personal information, especially in lieu of my being told people like me are complaining....
and yes darn straight I'm complaining because govt has had way too much interference in the private sector and ruined free enterprise for everyone but the Elite.

reply to post by MsAphrodite


A few is not many. While I do not support this ridiculous demand for student loan be forgiven, there is a problem with jobs in a long term recession.

I believe we really need to have less govt and more business incentive. Otherwise the jobs and the industries will continue to leave the country. That is a genuine problem with globalization. Our taxes go to enrich people's lives in third world countries, but there is no one there to help us when the jobs go away. oh wait, yah theres unemployment, but that is the point here, globalization supports the One World Socialist govt.

Originally posted by MsAphrodite
I know quite a few recent college graduates and they have all been able to secure good jobs they would not have otherwise been able to get. (as in with no education) This is in California.

The people that you know are a random sampling.

Statistics, on the other hand, tell a different story:

...Employment rates for new college graduates have fallen sharply in the last two years, as have starting salaries for those who can find work. What’s more, only half of the jobs landed by these new graduates even require a college degree, reviving debates about whether higher education is “worth it” after all....The median starting salary for students graduating from four-year colleges in 2009 and 2010 was $27,000, down from $30,000 for those who entered the work force in 2006 to 2008, according to a study released on Wednesday by the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers University. That is a decline of 10 percent, even before taking inflation into account.

Of course, these are the lucky ones — the graduates who found a job. Among the members of the class of 2010, just 56 percent had held at least one job by this spring, when the survey was conducted. That compares with 90 percent of graduates from the classes of 2006 and 2007....

Source:
www.nytimes.com...

See also:
"Class Of 2011 Faces Highest Unemployment Rate In History"
www.chicagonow.com...

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
I beleive we really need to have less govt and more business incentive. Otherwise the jobs and the industries will continue to leave the country.

How about we close the borders and penalize outsourcing?

Tax companies that outsource, or make laws against it. Put tarrifs on imported goods. Give tax breaks for companies that hire in the US.

Of course, this isn't advantageous for business, so they complain about "too much government" instead. What's even worse is they get people like you to do their complaining...for free!

reply to post by Partygirl


Oh thank you. thank you! Some one else who see's what I do! The whole college education has been exaggerated me thinks. In the mid 90's it was criminal justice that everyone in my area was getting degrees in. Problem was with out the desire to relocate the degree was pretty useless. Not enough jobs in the area to support them. I think that you are correct in saying business needs to be involved in getting colleges to be useful in the future. Right now a close friend is learning machining in his studies. One class was going to a local armory and seeing their set up and filling out applications. Some of the guys I guess are already hired as soon as they finish their program. A very lucrative field that I know first hand. Most of the machinists are nearing retirement age and there has not been a large amount of new comers in the field. Now companies are tripping over themselves trying to fill the expected vacancies! The last company I worked for had that problem, their machinist was older and in ill health. SO in the very near future they are gonna need a new machinist! This is something you do need the specialized training for and at HVCC offers the courses! How many other fields are there going to be shortages in that high school graduates could be steered toward? Maybe we need more like the old apprenticeship programs.

I'm in Canada and I'm at an environmental college. My college's statistics on jobs is something like '90% of students after graduating get jobs in the environmental careers they've chosen immediately'. Well, that sounds terrific, but I really don't see many jobs right now. I know that Stephen Harper and the Conservatives already stated they want to cut a bunch of jobs in the environmental industries.. I most certainly don't see many minimum wage jobs right now, which is making me very, very nervous. However, I'm holding out as I'm hoping there will be a serious push for environmental jobs, the sustainable energy we all know about, or like I'm mostly interested in, preserving Canada's national parks.


Well.... it's my first year ever taking post secondary education, and I love it... but for my finances..

- I received my OSAP, and for the first semester they gave me $6000, which with the deducted amount to pay for the semester, I was left with ~$3600.
- For a 4 bedroom basement, shared kitchen and bathroom I pay $500 per month. I took $2000 of that osap to pay my rent.
- After groceries, and books I was left with just over $1000.

Now it's less. I have to live on that until January. I'm pretty good with money, I buy beans, rice, pasta and other food staples, and don't go out to the bars and blow what money I do have lol. But I can't help but feel a little stressed out when I see my other friends spend money on bullshiiit. I had to go home for thanksgiving and in total spent about $80 in gas money for carpooling.. I could be wrong, but I think my friend paid, um... $20 in total? I'm not going to put up with that again, tell you that much. Every dollar counts these days, 'welcome to the real world'.

I now owe $10,000 so I can get a job to pay it off and preserve a park. In total I will pay $20,000. I've never been in debt before, I'm dead against credit cards, I don't drive... my expenses are low, I've lived well below the poverty line for about 7 years now.. and I've never been this nervous about 'making it'. OSAP will give me $4000 in January. About $1500 deducted for the semester, 3 or 4 months rent... I'll have about $500 to live on for 3 and a half months. Oh boy..

Sad thing is, soooo many people have it much, much worse than I. Makes you realize how bad things have become.. even when I was 'poor' living with my parents, I at least had food in the fridge.. I find myself only eating dinner, and I never ever snack or eat junk food anymore. Lost weight, ha, can't complain about that though :p

Here's another depressing piece:

85% of college grads move home (CNN)

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Getting a degree used to be a stepping stone to limitless career opportunities. Now it's more of a hiatus from living under your parents' roof.

Stubbornly high unemployment -- nearly 15% for those ages 20-24 -- has made finding a job nearly impossible. And without a job, there's nowhere for these young adults to go but back to their old bedrooms, curfews and chore charts. Meet the boomerangers.

Email Print Comment"This recession has hit young adults particularly hard," according to Rich Morin, senior editor at the Pew Research Center in DC.

So hard that a whopping 85% of college seniors planned to move back home with their parents after graduation last May, according to a poll by Twentysomething Inc., a marketing and research firm based in Philadelphia. That rate has steadily risen from 67% in 2006.

"It's peaking at levels we have not seen before," said David Morrison, managing director and founder of Twentysomething.

reply to post by Partygirl


If I don't find a minimum wage job by April, I must move home as OSAP doesn't cover the 3 summer months I have to attend.

Originally posted by Partygirl

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
I beleive we really need to have less govt and more business incentive. Otherwise the jobs and the industries will continue to leave the country.

How about we close the borders and penalize outsourcing?

Tax companies that outsource, or make laws against it. Put tarrifs on imported goods. Give tax breaks for companies that hire in the US.

Of course, this isn't advantageous for business, so they complain about "too much government" instead. What's even worse is they get people like you to do their complaining...for free!

There has to be tax incentives to keep businesses here or bring them back to the States. Once they go overseas it's likely not going to come back.
Penalties may just bring more Draconian legislation. But Big Labor is a big part of the mess. I noticed one of the demands of this OWS crowd is raising the minimum wage to $20/hr. This sounds great in UtopiaLand, but in practice, businesses will struggle even more to keep up with costs, and it's just more Big Govt. Only adding fuel to the fire. And the crazy thing is 20 bucks an hour still doesn't give us a real living wage does it? Not when a bottle of Tide costs 15 bucks. Wages truly do not reflect the ability to make a living in hyperinflated economies. When the Fed can keep printing money and devaluing the dollar, no amount of changing the minimum wage is going to fix the problem.


People like me to do the complaining for free? What the heck does that mean? Maybe you aren't too conservative if you take that stance with me? Or do you think that by my complaining, Im just one of those OWS students? I'm not! But I understand the complexity of the problem, whereas they want a Utopian solution presented to them by their Marxist professors.

So what kind of People am I in your brilliant knowledge of people's character?

Just so you know, I am not for more govt intervention in private affairs. Schools have to keep up with the costs of doing business. When inflation hits, everything goes up. We are not even talking about Ivy League are we? Private Universities do advertise to get students. But when they tell you that you can potentially get a $70,000 dollar job after getting an IT degree, there should be more of a disclaimer that this does not represent entry level salary, and students need to know early on that entry level is way lower than that of the experienced technician. They get around this of course by having you do a search on jobs and salaries of your desired field.

reply to post by Partygirl


Could be the start of a new trend in consolidating family dwellings as it was in the early part of the century and past centuries when multiple generations lived under the same roof and everyone contributed to the upkeep in their own ways, and grammaw and grampaw could still earn their keep with share of duties.

reply to post by Partygirl

You are writing with the insight and eloquence of a college-educated person!

I would say offhand you did well for yourself. My nephew was home schooled and is also extremely bright. But he went on to college, then MIT. I think he may be level-headed enough to emerge from the experience still sane.

Our education system in general, and higher education in particular, is a huge issue.

In spite of lip service to the contrary, I believe it has always been there to serve one basic purpose: To separate the insiders from the outsiders.

If you are an "outsider" you will either not go to college or will go and get yourself into trouble. If you survive that, you will be a rarity: A college-educated outsider. Or, the process will turn you into an insider.

If you are an insider, you MUST go to college. To not do so is to leave the group, or to condemn oneself to a life of being somebody's gardener or hit man. Generally, if you are committed to being an insider you will somehow be gotten through college regardless of your actual intellectual abilities, and you will land some job on the "inside" that at least vaguely aligns with your capabilities. Thereafter, you will be expected to walk the line, or else. The "or else" gets bigger the higher up the food chain you go.

I do not present any of the above as an insider. I was on track to become one, and I demurred during high school. Since my parents were first-generation insiders, it was no big deal to them. They were still under the impression that people should be free to choose their own fates. People born into insider families that go back for generations are usually handled a bit differently. So my data should be considered somewhat conjectural based on my observations and things I have read.

As my father has pointed out to me numerous times, the lack of at least a Bachelor's on one's resume can pose some interesting limitations. Though I have nearly 30 years of work experience in various white collar jobs, that fact does not seem to be a strong convincer. They want to see that Bachelor's! Means you've passed the test; you've agreed to operate by the insider moral code.

I wish you luck. Keep writing; you're good at it.

reply to post by l_e_cox


In the computer industry, a degree means very little in actually landing a job in that field. You must also have some accompanying certification. And there are soooo many to choose from.... and they all cost hundreds of dollars to take....

MCSE MCSA CCNA Network+ A+ C++ Security + CCENT CCIE to name just a few major ones.