reply to post by cassandranova
I think the key event will be an economic and financial collapse, possibly this decade.
It was the key event in the collapse of the Roman Republic, leading to a military coup, a counter coup which suspended elections, and then a civil war
resulting in absolute dictatorship sanctioned by the Senate.
I think we will follow that sequence somewhat. Insolvency is the key.
Time for Imperial America to rise!, page 3
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reply posted on 12-10-2011 @ 11:20 PM by CherubBaby
reply to post by spw184
I would like to thank you for the thread. I do want to point out a few things that I think are cornerstones in this issue and I would invite all of the readers to take a look at this. This is for all men and women, but I post this for The American People to stay on topic.
The Declaration Of Independence states:
I am going to quote Newt Gingrich and I agree with him for what are obvious reasons to follow:
So, what am I saying ? Where is this going? I will tell you. America was founded on the above principal and many others. The cornerstone that The Declaration Of Independence and Our Freedom as Americans hinges upon is the simple fact that God and the belief in Him was and is the Thread that secures liberty and freedom for America and the people of America.The problem America faces is not one that requires a "Leader to Deliver Us" The problem is America has forgotten "The Leader" that delivered us in the first place and gave us freedom.. That is "God and God alone".. Not religion.. but "God"
I would like to thank you for the thread. I do want to point out a few things that I think are cornerstones in this issue and I would invite all of the readers to take a look at this. This is for all men and women, but I post this for The American People to stay on topic.
The Declaration Of Independence states:
"We hold these truths to be self - evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, LIberty and the pursuit of Happieness."
I am going to quote Newt Gingrich and I agree with him for what are obvious reasons to follow:
"That order of justice( Mentioned Above ) requires all men and women to honor each other's natural rights, because these rights are an unalienable endowment from The Almighty."
So, what am I saying ? Where is this going? I will tell you. America was founded on the above principal and many others. The cornerstone that The Declaration Of Independence and Our Freedom as Americans hinges upon is the simple fact that God and the belief in Him was and is the Thread that secures liberty and freedom for America and the people of America.The problem America faces is not one that requires a "Leader to Deliver Us" The problem is America has forgotten "The Leader" that delivered us in the first place and gave us freedom.. That is "God and God alone".. Not religion.. but "God"
reply posted on 12-10-2011 @ 11:24 PM by cassandranova
reply to post by MikeboydUS
Accepting your idea that there are different power bases without a predominant faction, given the way people have moved in recent years along ideological lines and how there are real cultural differences between areas of the nation, especially amongst middle and lower class people much more than elites, would it be possible to say an equally plausible scenario would be looking at the fall of Alexander's Empire? After that, power coalesced into a couple powerful but separate blocs.
It's not that hard for me to imagine at least several different entities forming in the US, especially if state governments just stepped up the tiniest bit into the void while there was warring between different Federal and military actions. I imagine half the west and Texas would love to split.
Accepting your idea that there are different power bases without a predominant faction, given the way people have moved in recent years along ideological lines and how there are real cultural differences between areas of the nation, especially amongst middle and lower class people much more than elites, would it be possible to say an equally plausible scenario would be looking at the fall of Alexander's Empire? After that, power coalesced into a couple powerful but separate blocs.
It's not that hard for me to imagine at least several different entities forming in the US, especially if state governments just stepped up the tiniest bit into the void while there was warring between different Federal and military actions. I imagine half the west and Texas would love to split.
reply posted on 12-10-2011 @ 11:29 PM by RSF77
reply to post by MikeboydUS
You have a very warped opinion of what the United States of America really is.
You have a very warped opinion of what the United States of America really is.
reply posted on 13-10-2011 @ 01:04 AM by MikeboydUS
reply to post by CherubBaby
One thing to consider is what "Creator" was Jefferson thinking of when he wrote the Declaration.
Jefferson did not believe in the Trinity or the deity of Jesus.
The term "Nature's God" found in the first sentence is from the Roman Senator Cicero, whose writings had a great influence on Jefferson.
One thing to consider is what "Creator" was Jefferson thinking of when he wrote the Declaration.
Jefferson did not believe in the Trinity or the deity of Jesus.
The term "Nature's God" found in the first sentence is from the Roman Senator Cicero, whose writings had a great influence on Jefferson.
reply posted on 13-10-2011 @ 01:23 AM by MikeboydUS
reply to post by cassandranova
There are a number of issues with the US balkanizing like Yugoslavia or the USSR.
One of the first issues is the US is far more homogenous than entities that normally balkanize. The second is ideological differences in the nation arn't so much a geographic issue as one along lines of income and location in urban or rural areas. That could change though in a few decades, at least in the Southwest, where the Hispanic population could revolt and try to seek independence. I think our economy and financial system will go down before that happens though. There are a number of massive urban centers that could try seek independence in the event of some kind collapse, but most are not viable enough to be independent. At the same time almost none of them would be prepared to mount any sort of real defense against a strong central authority based out of the BosWash corridor, the heart of our Republic.
This doesn't mean there won't be revolts by some communities. I fully expect some, even those not viable, to try.
After Sulla took power in Rome, Hispania revolted for years against his rule until the Roman legions finally crushed them. Considering that, we could see a number of Chechnya style conflicts in different parts of the country.
There are a number of issues with the US balkanizing like Yugoslavia or the USSR.
One of the first issues is the US is far more homogenous than entities that normally balkanize. The second is ideological differences in the nation arn't so much a geographic issue as one along lines of income and location in urban or rural areas. That could change though in a few decades, at least in the Southwest, where the Hispanic population could revolt and try to seek independence. I think our economy and financial system will go down before that happens though. There are a number of massive urban centers that could try seek independence in the event of some kind collapse, but most are not viable enough to be independent. At the same time almost none of them would be prepared to mount any sort of real defense against a strong central authority based out of the BosWash corridor, the heart of our Republic.
This doesn't mean there won't be revolts by some communities. I fully expect some, even those not viable, to try.
After Sulla took power in Rome, Hispania revolted for years against his rule until the Roman legions finally crushed them. Considering that, we could see a number of Chechnya style conflicts in different parts of the country.
reply posted on 13-10-2011 @ 01:25 AM by MikeboydUS
Originally posted by RSF77
reply to post by MikeboydUS
You have a very warped opinion of what the United States of America really is.
Can you elaborate so I can provide an adequate response?
I would like to know what exactly is warped.
reply posted on 13-10-2011 @ 01:40 AM by CherubBaby
reply to post by MikeboydUS
Natures God? From The first sentence? I dont know what your talking about. I also am not going to try to decide what or who or where Jefferson was thinking. I do know what the text of the Declaration says tho. Thats all I have to go off of and thats enough.
Natures God? From The first sentence? I dont know what your talking about. I also am not going to try to decide what or who or where Jefferson was thinking. I do know what the text of the Declaration says tho. Thats all I have to go off of and thats enough.
reply posted on 13-10-2011 @ 01:50 AM by MikeboydUS
Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by MikeboydUS
Natures God? From The first sentence? I dont know what your talking about. I also am not going to try to decide what or who or where Jefferson was thinking. I do know what the text of the Declaration says tho. Thats all I have to go off of and thats enough.
The first sentence:
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Most of the ideas from the Declaration can be found in the works of Cicero.
I merely brought it up in case, as some do, that the Republic was "Christian". Some of the founders were, but the brains behind this experiment were not, being either Deists or like Jefferson, somewhere between Epicurean and Deist.
No offense intended.
reply posted on 13-10-2011 @ 02:06 AM by The Old American
reply to post by spw184
America has had an imperialistic foreign policy since before Teddy Roosevelt, though he exemplified it. We've been nation building for a long, long time.
/TOA
America has had an imperialistic foreign policy since before Teddy Roosevelt, though he exemplified it. We've been nation building for a long, long time.
/TOA
reply posted on 13-10-2011 @ 11:44 AM by cassandranova
reply to post by MikeboydUS
MikeBoyd, I probably agree with your analysis though I will say I think you might be underestimating the degree of regionalism that still exists. I've spent enough time traveling in the South to think they wouldn't be too upset to see the Atlantic corridor have less control. While you're right that ideology tends to follow urban/suburban lines, I do think there are enough differences between red and blue states that it might matter.
And, as you seem to suggest, I wouldn't be surprised under the right circumstances to see certain states consider bolting, such as a Texas.
All that said, you're probably right. To tell you the truth, considering how poorly people appreciate liberty in this nation, there'll be something to be said for having a system of government that would be, if nothing else, more logical.
My last question to you is given the relative instability you see in the American future, how do you think that impacts the idea of an eventual North American Union? Would the imperial emergence necessarily seek to spread into Canada, and then perhaps Mexico?
MikeBoyd, I probably agree with your analysis though I will say I think you might be underestimating the degree of regionalism that still exists. I've spent enough time traveling in the South to think they wouldn't be too upset to see the Atlantic corridor have less control. While you're right that ideology tends to follow urban/suburban lines, I do think there are enough differences between red and blue states that it might matter.
And, as you seem to suggest, I wouldn't be surprised under the right circumstances to see certain states consider bolting, such as a Texas.
All that said, you're probably right. To tell you the truth, considering how poorly people appreciate liberty in this nation, there'll be something to be said for having a system of government that would be, if nothing else, more logical.
My last question to you is given the relative instability you see in the American future, how do you think that impacts the idea of an eventual North American Union? Would the imperial emergence necessarily seek to spread into Canada, and then perhaps Mexico?
reply posted on 13-10-2011 @ 03:20 PM by MikeboydUS
reply to post by cassandranova
I think in someplaces the progressive vs. conservative dynamic could present a threat, but I think it would also have the potential to tear the state itself apart. Examples: California, where the state one day could be divided into northern and southern regions. In the southern US in many states, there is an ethnic/political divide that is large enough to be a potential issue. It could be bring rural and urban areas into conflict. I don't think it would lead to secession by the state governments though, but instead would represent terrorist and insurgent elements within the states.
One thing I should have mentioned earlier in regards to states and state governments is that many local and state governments would not survive the financial collapse. This would have a huge effect on determining if a state, city, or county might decide to officially revolt. Many of these governments depend on federal handouts and in the event the financial and economic system comes down, they will lose those handouts. Hyperinflation and high unemployment will further reduce tax revenue into those governments.
In some places authority could totally collapse, potentials include parts of Nevada, Illinois, Michigan, and California. In others, the people will band together, regardless of money, protecting and serving out of a sense of patriotic duty. Lastly there will be some, like Texas and Utah, who should bring in enough business and revenue to survive without federal intervention. Those that can't or won't maintain authority should see some form of federal intervention, either in the form of the US military or some type of Homeland Stability and Security Forces. It could be bad enough that in some state governments that they end up as defacto federal territories or commonwealths.
Keep in mind all of that is just during the chaos when the transition should be taking place. It would be during that chaos, that we see any coup, counter coup, revolts, or any form of civil war.
How does this transition impact North American and the potential for a continental union?
With the global economy in ashes, I could imagine that Canada, the US and Mexico might try to merge their economies in order to survive. I don't think the Mexican government may survive long enough to get around to summits and treaty signings. Based on the current situation in Mexico and what could happen if the global economy collapses, Mexico could end up looking like Afghanistan, with multiple narco warlords fighting each other for territory, while the central government either collapses or only controls Mexico City.
Instead of Mexico signing a treaty to become part of a NAU, what we may end up seeing is US-Canadian security and stability forces intervening in Mexico. In other words, Mexico loses its sovereignty and ends up being occupied by foreign troops then assimilated into a new supranational entity.
Canada on the other hand is far more stable and could attend talks to begin a process of integration. I think these talks could potentially push Quebec out of Canada, becoming a future problem that would have to be dealt with at some point.
One aspect I should mention is that I don't think integration talks or intervention in Mexico would take place during the transition though, but after the new stable government emerges in Washington DC. Once the new strong and stable government rises, the financial system is transformed, and the economy begins to recover, then we will see the Canadian government, among others, desire to be part of this new paradigm that has emerged as it offers order in a world of chaos.
If ancient Roman history is any guide and Greece becomes an analog for Western Europe, we won't see just an integration of North America but an Atlantic Union, incorporating Western Europe from the then collapsed EU.
Like the intervention in Mexico, I would fully expect US and Canadian forces to come to the aid of Europe, starting with the UK, then on to mainland Europe, eventually completing the circle of history when forces arrive in the city of Rome.
I think in someplaces the progressive vs. conservative dynamic could present a threat, but I think it would also have the potential to tear the state itself apart. Examples: California, where the state one day could be divided into northern and southern regions. In the southern US in many states, there is an ethnic/political divide that is large enough to be a potential issue. It could be bring rural and urban areas into conflict. I don't think it would lead to secession by the state governments though, but instead would represent terrorist and insurgent elements within the states.
One thing I should have mentioned earlier in regards to states and state governments is that many local and state governments would not survive the financial collapse. This would have a huge effect on determining if a state, city, or county might decide to officially revolt. Many of these governments depend on federal handouts and in the event the financial and economic system comes down, they will lose those handouts. Hyperinflation and high unemployment will further reduce tax revenue into those governments.
In some places authority could totally collapse, potentials include parts of Nevada, Illinois, Michigan, and California. In others, the people will band together, regardless of money, protecting and serving out of a sense of patriotic duty. Lastly there will be some, like Texas and Utah, who should bring in enough business and revenue to survive without federal intervention. Those that can't or won't maintain authority should see some form of federal intervention, either in the form of the US military or some type of Homeland Stability and Security Forces. It could be bad enough that in some state governments that they end up as defacto federal territories or commonwealths.
Keep in mind all of that is just during the chaos when the transition should be taking place. It would be during that chaos, that we see any coup, counter coup, revolts, or any form of civil war.
How does this transition impact North American and the potential for a continental union?
With the global economy in ashes, I could imagine that Canada, the US and Mexico might try to merge their economies in order to survive. I don't think the Mexican government may survive long enough to get around to summits and treaty signings. Based on the current situation in Mexico and what could happen if the global economy collapses, Mexico could end up looking like Afghanistan, with multiple narco warlords fighting each other for territory, while the central government either collapses or only controls Mexico City.
Instead of Mexico signing a treaty to become part of a NAU, what we may end up seeing is US-Canadian security and stability forces intervening in Mexico. In other words, Mexico loses its sovereignty and ends up being occupied by foreign troops then assimilated into a new supranational entity.
Canada on the other hand is far more stable and could attend talks to begin a process of integration. I think these talks could potentially push Quebec out of Canada, becoming a future problem that would have to be dealt with at some point.
One aspect I should mention is that I don't think integration talks or intervention in Mexico would take place during the transition though, but after the new stable government emerges in Washington DC. Once the new strong and stable government rises, the financial system is transformed, and the economy begins to recover, then we will see the Canadian government, among others, desire to be part of this new paradigm that has emerged as it offers order in a world of chaos.
If ancient Roman history is any guide and Greece becomes an analog for Western Europe, we won't see just an integration of North America but an Atlantic Union, incorporating Western Europe from the then collapsed EU.
Like the intervention in Mexico, I would fully expect US and Canadian forces to come to the aid of Europe, starting with the UK, then on to mainland Europe, eventually completing the circle of history when forces arrive in the city of Rome.
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