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How Alternative Medicine (probably) Killed Steve Jobs

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posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
did you bother to actually read the article about WHY it was ALLOWED to kill him??
This is a big problem on ATS.

Despite the site's motto of deny ignorance, in my experience over 95% of the posters responding to a thread with an article linked in the OP don't bother to read the article. Maybe they just read the headline?

This thread is no exception. I think many of the posters in this thread have not read the article, and therefore aren't doing much to deny ignorance.

Jobs did finally consent to the recommendations of modern medicine, 9 months after the doctor said immediate treatment was needed. It does appear that if he had not delayed those 9 months to consent, but instead had consented immediately to his doctor's recommendation, he would probably still be alive today.

The problem was that the cancer was spreading at a rapid rate during the 9 months he played around with ineffective alternate treatments.

I'm no fan of big pharma, I can tell you that. But when I worked in Africa over 100 miles from any hospital, and the nearest medical treatment was a tribal medicine man who would throw a bag of chicken bones on the ground to diagnose my illness, I was glad to get back to civilization where I at least had access to modern medicine. It turns out I've never needed it, but if I ever do, I'd take modern medicine over the medicine man throwing a bag of bones on the ground any day. When I look for the evidence of the effectiveness of alternative medicine, I often find no more evidence of effectiveness than the guy using a bag of bones had.

Modern medicine doctors may still be "practicing", but they seem to have far better measurements of effectiveness and statistics than the alternative folks do who are also "practicing" but at a much less knowledgeable level as far as I can tell. They certainly didn't help Jobs.

The moral of this story is, when you have aggressively spreading cancer, you don't have the luxury of messing around with ineffective treatments while it's still spreading, if you want to live.
edit on 11-10-2011 by Arbitrageur because: clarification




posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 06:41 PM
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Can you define alternative medicine?

Ayurved is a very old system of medicine based on natural herbs and minerals. However the system has an elaborate way of preparation of medicines just like modern medicines. The system also includes surgery, and use of natural antiseptics etc.

The problem lies in lack of knowledge. Ayurved is a dieing science, due to a lack of practitioners, and a lack of support from the Government.

However it is a known fact that these medicines work. I have been cured of an old disease which was not cured by any allopathic medicine.

Jobs most likely used Chinese system of medicine which is based on a lot of animal products. Jobs problems may have to do with that.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by vedatruth
 


For me alternative medicine is anything that does not have verifable evidence (ie the scientific method) showing its effectiveness.

That is something different from just having "studdies" that show effectiveness - one of hte main planks of the scientific method is repeatability - the ability to get the same results, if starting with the same conditions, anywhere, regardless of who is doing the experiment.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by vedatruth
 


Ayurved has treatment for cancer. The only issue is it is based on natural healing of the body, so diet is very important. Ayurved is designed for vegetarians. The hormones and chemicals present in non-vegetarian diet interfere with Ayurvedic treatment rendering it less effective.

There are large benefits with Ayurved, as it does not have side effects. The healing happens completely, and surgery is very seldom required.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 06:53 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


No allopathic medicine is 100% repeatable. Human body is not a chemistry experiment.

You are wrong. Modern medicine is based on statistics, means % of people who get better. I know enough bio-chemists to understand that.

It is no different from Ayurved, which is also based on observations of what works for most people.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by vedatruth
 


Repeatability can involve a lot of statistics - I am superficially familiar with the math involved.

But IMO if you start claiming that somethign cannot be replicated then right away you're saying it is not reliable, and you dont' really know why it works some times and not others.

And at that ppoint you are into belief & faith - which may or may not help someone in any given circumstance - but you have no right to claim you are practicing medicine - you are practicing randomness.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 07:00 PM
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"naturepath or yogi tells you will work"

This is such a silly comment. The Yogi is not a doctor. The article is a hate speech.

The article is full of guess-work. The author does not know the type of treatment taken by Jobs.

There are no Yogis to be found in USA. Jobs cannot consult a Yogi even if he wants as there are none to be found where he lived.

A 'naturopath' may be his advisor. Question is which one. USA does not allow practice of 'Ayurved'. So it is impossible he was taking 'Ayurved' medicines.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul


IMO "alternative medicine" is one of the biggest and most dangerous conspiracies on the planet - lots of people might thing "big pharma" is too - but at least "big pahrma" has to do testing, has some regulatory oversight, can be criticised on scientific grounds and forced to change, and can be sued from here to kingdom come.

when was the last time anyone was able to take a class action against alternative quacks??

depletedcranium.com
(visit the link for the full news article)


This sounds like utter shilling for Big Pharma, who is currently raping this populace into utter poverty. You should be ashamed to use this man's death to further your agenda.
edit on 11-10-2011 by illuminatislave because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by vedatruth
 


Repeatability can involve a lot of statistics - I am superficially familiar with the math involved.

But IMO if you start claiming that somethign cannot be replicated then right away you're saying it is not reliable, and you dont' really know why it works some times and not others.

And at that ppoint you are into belief & faith - which may or may not help someone in any given circumstance - but you have no right to claim you are practicing medicine - you are practicing randomness.


People do not get better by faith - may be it plays some part.

Herbal medicines work. I have seen them work for a long time, including treatment of chronic ailments.

The problem is availability of Ayurvedic medicines which is very low. The low availability is due to destruction of natural environment where the herbs grow.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by illuminatislave
 


Yerah...right....like it's not possible to look at facts that modern medicine saves millions of lives and would likely have saved this man's life, and be anything othe than a "shill" for big pharma.

thanks for your input.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by occy30
To presume big pharm just wants us to feel better and live healthy lives is just mind numbingly absurd. I just don't know where I would start without sounding so derogatory.


Just as well I didn't say uit then isn't it!

Of course big medicine is out to make money - jsut as "alternative practicioners" are - with about as many exceptions to that general rule on each side. And notice that teh alternative practitioners are also practitioners - are practicing - for those into semantic pedantry.

the FACTS are that medicine - REAL meadicine - still has to be tested, has regulatory oversight, can be sued from here to kingdom come - and "alternative practitioners" do not.

as for cancer killing steve J - did you bother to actually read the article about WHY it was ALLOWED to kill him??



The regulatory oversight is by people who either have or will work for big pharma - it is a joke.

As for suing them, it takes a lot of money to win a suit, and most people, including practitioners of alternative medicine, don't have the resources.

And why get upset, anyway - because it is a lopsided battle. Big pharma pays off our politicians with campaign donations, and deluges them with bogus studies and recommendations, to enact legislation that is against the wishes of the majority, and somehow, with warped logic and tons of advertising dollars, convinces people that it is good for them, or obfuscates things so much that the same bribed politicians get elected over and over again.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 07:23 PM
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reply to post by sorgfelt
 


And yet class action lawsuits over medical issues continue to be raised and won

If I believed in god I would ask it to help me with the ignorance on thissite - but I know it is no help so I jsut have to do my best to deny ignorance!



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 07:23 PM
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Pancreatic cancer is one of the worst cancers and he survived for a long time with it. But what kills usually is the secondary cancers which he suffered from.

I think we should have both forms of medicine and be able to select treatments which include both if we wish. The problem with the alternative products is that research money for these is almost impossible to get and finance is aimed purely by the pharma companies to their own products.

In Britain the aromatherapy oils were subject to a government think tank concerning whether the producers of these oils should be licensed and a colleague of mine sat on that panel. When the panel finished their investigation and had decided to leave the industry as it was, he was horrified to find that Tony Blair, a couple of days before the vote was taken on this, removed a number of the panel and replaced them with new people. The vote went in favour of licensing the producers of these oils thereby ruining the businesses of the small companies because they could not afford the license fees. This naturally opened it up to the big High Street Chemist chains - the ones we all wear on our feet during the winter.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by illuminatislave
 


Yerah...right....like it's not possible to look at facts that modern medicine saves millions of lives and would likely have saved this man's life, and be anything othe than a "shill" for big pharma.

thanks for your input.


You are making assumptions about Jobs just like the author. We do not know what kind of treatment Jobs took. Ayurved is an established system. It is not quackery. Doctors are educated in medical school just like allopathy.

I am repeating again. USA does not allow practice of Ayurved. It is possible that Jobs was using some 'tonics' on advice of somebody. Medicines are different and distinct from tonics.

It s impossible to know until we know about the doctor and system of medicine.



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 08:44 PM
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Lets do a "what if?"......

What if a cure for all cancers was found. What if it was readily available and cheap. Would any pharmacy company try to get this to market?

Answer (imho): No, by spending the multi-millions on the studies and tests to get certifications and FDA approval they would be losing that investment as the cure will not pay off in profit of any kind (because of how cheap it is). Add to it the fact that once released, then the HUGE amount of drug treatments, procedures, billion dollar lasers and various other equipment, HUGE business buildings devoted to cancer research and treatment would all be shut down and lost because no more research is needed.

So finding a cheap cure only destroys the pharmacy company completely. Not only in lost profits, but in all of the R&D they did for the hundreds of other drugs and treatments they developed in the last 10 years.

Couple of alternative methods I've heard about (and luckily have not had the opportunity to need to try them out) are the Baking Soda Cure, MMS, and something that is pretty new but promising is Redox Signaling Molecules.

I've used MMS for a lot of other uses it has and my daughter (who is allergic to everything it seems) has gotten rid of her bad acne with this stuff. I found this stuff after many different drugs the dermatologist kept trying with her and all of the side effects that were worse than the acne (when it actually cleared the acne). I've also recently had a cold that the rest of my family eventually gave me. Lasted about 2 weeks with each of them. The first day I realized I had it I used the MMS, and 2 days later I was over it. I'll take that over the 2 week time everyone else got to enjoy that bug. But this is just my personal experience. Alternative medicines and treatments (especially cheap ones) should be researched as well as you can and tried if it sounds like it might help you.

Good luck to everyone!!!



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by vedatruth

You are making assumptions about Jobs just like the author. We do not know what kind of treatment Jobs took.


I'm pretty sure the treatment he took is mentioned in the article ...perhaps you could read it just to see??



posted on Oct, 11 2011 @ 10:42 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


I can read my dear. Hope you can too.

This article first mentions homeopathy.

Then it says Jobs was taking advice from a Naturopath and used 'diet' and 'supplements'.

You are the confused person here along with the writer. Nowhere does it mention Ayurved.

Which 'Yogi' did prescribe any medicine to Jobs??????? Please let me know.



posted on Oct, 12 2011 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 




Iatrogenesis means “to bring forth (by a healer)” and generically refer to both positive and negative effects. In practice, the term is used almost exclusively in the negative context and I shall use it thus henceforth. Consider that Iatrogenesis is the third highest cause of death in the USA. That is, deaths resulting from mainstream medical misadventure, misdiagnosis and mistreatment.

Source

Alternative medicine gets harried over every singe death while mainstream medicine doesn't have any problems with hundreds of thousands. And those numbers reflect only those deaths that they admit to. For example many deaths attributed to pneumonia don't mention that the patient acquired their pneumonia at the hospital.
Cancer patients who subscribe to mainstream medicine drop dead by the hundreds daily. I have known a few personally.



posted on Oct, 12 2011 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by RedPill
 

I don't get your point at all.

Even if every word you say is completely true, and that may be the case, I don't see why any of that would make anyone prefer alternative medicine.

If you think any of that is an logical argument for alternative medicine, you're not being rational at all. Of course if more people pursue treatment with mainstream medicine, more people are going to die in the treatment of mainstream medicine. That proves nothing about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of mainstream medicine versus alternative medicine.

The facts stated in the article however, do have a bearing on the distinction between the two. You should read it.



posted on Oct, 12 2011 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by vedatruth
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 

You are the confused person here along with the writer. Nowhere does it mention Ayurved.


huh?? I never mentioned Ayurved either - you bought it into the conversation from nowhere. What are you on about??



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