The America I once knew is gone.

It seems as though you have never watched videos from the 60's of the civil rights movements, and just hippies assembling peaceably with song, music and flowers. Watch some archival footage from people exercising their rights peaceably from back then. You will see savage police brutality, mass arrests, tear gas, pepper spray, fire hoses, truncheon beat-downs, the military being used to oppress and murder college students, and more.

This is not new. This has been going on for decades and almost nobody has given a #. Not as the "War on Drugs" was used as an excuse to destroy so many of your fundamental rights and liberties for decades before it became the "War on Terrorism". Oppressing you under the guise of drugs was a little too confining, they needed to broaden it to a description so vague that you can be accused of it just for the expression on your face, or writing a post such as this.

People popping up now and saying that now they are waking up just mostly means that the tyranny is encroaching enough on the "mainstream do-gooders", instead of just the poor, the minorities, that now they actually stop and say "Hey! Wait!" This was fine when it was happening to blacks, gays, people I just don't like, but now that it's happening to people in my social class I realize this is INTOLERABLE!

Our "Republic" has always been a delicate balance between Socialism and Fascism.

If we slide too far to the left? (Socialism), The government owns everything and everybody works for THEM!

If we slide too far to the right? (Fascism), The corporations own everything, and we become their slaves! (Think Nazi Germany).

When the Supreme Court ruled that "Corporations are people" We ALL lost!


At least, That's how I perceive all of this....

Right on my friend, good post. It is very disturbing to see policemen arresting veterans. Corrupt police departments are rampant in this country

reply to post by Chance321


I watched the video twice and I saw no brutality either. For the sake of disclosure I absolutely do not support OWS but I also do not condone police brutality. I saw none here. I'm a veteran and I would expect to get hauled off like anybody else who is not following a lawful order (or 3) to leave. You get arrested in this country for civil disobedience. That doesn't make it a "police state" or police brutality. Nothing but false outrage IMO. Bunch of cry babies.     

I'm not completely sure that the America I once knew was the real America, anyway. It's all propaganda and illusion mixed in with a lot of fuzzy sentimentality, you know. Or maybe you don't.

So it doesn't matter.

Violence by the police will only create sympathy for the protestors. Whether they broke curfew or any other misdemeanor law, protests by their basic premiss are concerned about creating a disturbance. Heck, that's what protests are all about! Without that, protests would never gain the attention by the people who try to keep the lid on public discontent. If people are willing to be arrested, it shows the public and officials a strong conviction in what they believe. If they followed the orders of police to disperse, than people here and everywhere else would say these protestors don't have the fortitude to push for change.

I have to laugh at some of these comments about "we'll they're breaking the law." How else do you show your dissatisfaction for the system? Talk to a Vietnam protestor, they had the fortitude and persistence to make a stance. They were arrested and killed for what they believed in. The violence by the police and the national guard during those protests didn't exactly give them popular public support.

Originally posted by thehoneycomb
reply to post by morder1

 

Because the 99% is going to attempt to bring us socialism.

Socialism is not less government and regulation it is more of it and they turn a blind eye to human rights and inalienable rights and freedom as well.

the 99% that can't even go on vacation any more because gas prices go thru the roof every 6 months. the 99% who lost their homes because of fraud and embezzlement by wall street thru mortgage fraud and not one person in d.c. stepped up and put anybody in jail, much less charged or investigated.

they don't want a communist party takeover, they want justice, accountability, fairness and atleast the feeling that the american dream is there if they choose to pursue it.

so much to ask for.

Originally posted by AkumaStreak
Do you know what inalienable rights are? It doesn't matter if they're COLLEGE KIDS or STONERS!!! Cute to me that now you're willing to get onboard, but before when it involved people you don't give a rat's ass about, you didn't care. That's the kind of thinking that this movement is looking to snuff (selfish "I want all the pie, and who cares about those people I don't relate to/think/care about"). EMPATHY people! Humility too! You'll learn it, sooner or later...

Well, on one hand, thanks for the warm welcome in how my views and attitudes have evolved over time. I'm sure that response will make plenty of others in my position real quick to come out and admit a mistake if they feel they might have read the Occupation movement wrong here.

Additionally, if one were to look back over the posts I have actually written in recent weeks on this subject instead of blindly attacking, you may notice that my lack of respect for the OWS in New York specifically, but others as well, has come from two places.

- One, it's been my feeling that this would accomplish nothing so long as it was COLLEGE KIDS AND STONERS. We live in a nation of 310 million VERY diverse people...and if change is to happen, a GOOD % of those people need to at least be very sympathetic to it, if not openly supportive. Druggies and people banging the bongo drums wasn't going to do it. If fact, it WOULD accomplish just the opposite. It would give authorities a full dress rehearsal with the room to learn from mistakes made before the rest of the population took to the streets later.

- Second, I have been clear and consistent in every post I can recall making not only here, but on other sites as well. I wish the protesters NO HARM, what so ever. No Empathy? Actually...I was feeling very real dread for the folks in Atlanta last night as the camera was recording the virtual army of cops 2-3 blocks out in a circle around the park. Equestrian Units weren't brought out in the wee hours of the morning JUST to 'show' force. They apparently had every intent of using it.

What happened in Boston is where I actually HAVE made the decision that enough is enough and yeah....I'm becoming involved now. 110% and at a 90 Degree angle. I don't lack for commitment, I'm just very careful about making one. Empathy is what has finally pushed me off the fence, as much as any other single factor.

- Last..I'd wondered how long it would be before someone outright called me on having changed my whole view to the protest movement. My thinking has evolved, not simply changed. I still don't care much for the mass of filthy, stinking bodies squat camping Zuccotti park. That hasn't changed in my thinking one bit.

It IS disgraceful and had I not seen the OTHER SIDE of the Occupation movement in Atlanta, Seattle, Boston, St Louis, and other locations last night, I'd still feel very similar today. The fact is, seeing MOST of the people outside of lower Manhattan appear Middle to Lower-Middle class, just like me...and actually late 20's on into middle age..just like me, did quite a bit in altering my outlook.

If the MSM would stop FOCUSING on that park full of endless rows of sleeping bags and half naked bodies, I and others may have come around much sooner.

Originally posted by thehoneycomb
reply to post by morder1

 

Because the 99% is going to attempt to bring us socialism.

Socialism is not less government and regulation it is more of it and they turn a blind eye to human rights and inalienable rights and freedom as well.

And where do you stand on the socialism being practiced by the government with their practice of corporate welfare?

Hmm?

You throw tantrums because the government sends poor people checks

You shut up when they bail out banks and corporations.

smh

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I wasn't trying to attack you per-say. I was more attacking the false portrayal of these people that by design leads to this kind of thinking, as well as any thinking along the lines of "these kids don't matter", or that these people are un-American. They are as American as it gets.

Someone should fill a truck with makeshift bathrooms, let these people get a good shave and cleanup, hand out some nice clean clothes, and haul off some of the garbage on the way out. I realize there are lots of people involved now (which is a good thing), but someone out there with the resources to do something like this might be able to really help out.

They are US, and if we want US to look more presentable, let's get on it. :-)

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by desertdweller1

 

Agreed. What I watched happen in Boston tonight is something I would have expected to see in Gorky Park or Tienanmen Square, not a United States City. I don't know how it came to this, but here we are guys. Now what?

Now what? I wanna go back to sleep, or I think I am going need a supersize prescription for anti depressents maybe I will jsut self medicate.

reply to post by Exuberant1


Are you an Attorney? Did you see any rights being violated in that 2:30 video?
Do you understand the concept of civil disobedience?
Do you understand that the original tea party action was criminal, and it was a felony?
Can you wrap your head around this simple concept.......you may have to break the law in order
to fight for what you believe in......it doesn't mean that your fight is not against the law.....it doesn't mean
that if the police follow procedure that they are violating any of your "perceived" rights.
If there is a curfew....break it...fight your cause....but don't be crying about being arrested....don't be crying about
your rights when you resist and they take you down.

This new generation is so damn ignorant it drives me insane.

Originally posted by here4awhile
reply to post by Chance321

 

you are part of that 99% whether you like it or not...you're right that these protesters cannot represent the full 99%...but at least they try and stand up to tyranny in some form or another...I don't see many others doing the same...

How are they standing up to tyranny? By just hanging out? How is a mob that is being used by obama and the democrats to take the focus off the Fast & Furious hearings, the Salindra solar scam where obama blew over 500billion of our tax dollars. Notice how these issues took a back seat to this distraction that obama needed.

Originally posted by thehoneycomb
reply to post by morder1

 

Because the 99% is going to attempt to bring us socialism.

Socialism is not less government and regulation it is more of it and they turn a blind eye to human rights and inalienable rights and freedom as well.

Let's look at the constitution:
Preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Wiki

How about those inalienable rights?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal

Source

Now let's see what George Carlin says about this:


And this Start at 4:34

Originally posted by AkumaStreak
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I wasn't trying to attack you per-say. I was more attacking the false portrayal of these people that by design leads to this kind of thinking, as well as any thinking along the lines of "these kids don't matter", or that these people are un-American. They are as American as it gets.

Someone should fill a truck with makeshift bathrooms, let these people get a good shave and cleanup, hand out some nice clean clothes, and haul off some of the garbage on the way out. I realize there are lots of people involved now (which is a good thing), but someone out there with the resources to do something like this might be able to really help out.

They are US, and if we want US to look more presentable, let's get on it. :-)

edit on 10/11/2011 by AkumaStreak because: (no reason given)

Fair enough and here is where I insert my apologies for having misread your message. I'm still getting a handle on the rage Boston generated. I honestly never believed I'd see that in my America and it's what some may call earth shattering in a way other things should have been, but haven't until now. I'm touchy while that little burning coal cools a bit and gets stuffed into a freezer compartment for the duration of whats coming.

I agree on the filth and perhaps something can be done about that both there and elsewhere...I'm not sure yet. I'm working on something that is just in the idea phase..but perhaps there are ways to give direct help and support to see these people have more than a passing chance of success. They've carried the water for everyone else, alone and under ridicule of the media for almost a month. I'm afraid in some little way, I contributed to that. Perhaps they have shown at least enough to earn the assistance of people out here on the net who can't help by being there. Not money.... We'll see. Anyway. Thanks for the reply to clarify and giving me the opportunity to make it right.

Originally posted by IrVulture
Our "Republic" has always been a delicate balance between Socialism and Fascism.

If we slide too far to the left? (Socialism), The government owns everything and everybody works for THEM!

If we slide too far to the right? (Fascism), The corporations own everything, and we become their slaves! (Think Nazi Germany).

When the Supreme Court ruled that "Corporations are people" We ALL lost!


At least, That's how I perceive all of this....

I totally agree, we need perfect balance like in nature. Too far left...VERY BAD too FAR RIGHT EQUALLY AWFUL More people need to have centrist/ balanced views. But like George Carlin I beleive we have unlimited rights *as long as it don't infringe on someone elses' rights* That is how it should be. When big corps squeeze out small business (think Wal Mart) they ARE infringing on their rights in a free market. A little competition is healthy, but playing a stacked deck is unsportman like!

Originally posted by thehoneycomb
reply to post by morder1

 

As stated, for the police that was standard protocol. It was everything I would expect them to do. They did not violate the constitution. The protestors were violating curfew and trespassing, and just because you are a veteran does not mean that you are above the law.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The protesters were exercising their constitutional right of free speech. The law in this case is in conflict with the Constitution. Violating curfew eh? Sounds like Martial Law to me.

To sum it up,
in the 50's and 60's ,America went through a change,mostly cultural and civil rights.
In the 70's ,we went through tough economic times.
In the 80's and 90's,we went through a boom,people prospered.
And ,now,we are going through some really bad times.

It's like the American people were given the American dream,then they just took it all away.

That is why people are upset.

reply to post by kdog1982


Yes it's like "Here you go, Rufus here's a big fat steak good boy" ten seconds later HEHEHE The Owners pull the rug out from under little Rufus.

Originally posted by kdog1982
To sum it up,
in the 50's and 60's ,America went through a change,mostly cultural and civil rights.
In the 70's ,we went through tough economic times.
In the 80's and 90's,we went through a boom,people prospered.
And ,now,we are going through some really bad times.

It's like the American people were given the American dream,then they just took it all away.

That is why people are upset.

Well said except the people weren't "given" anything, they had to work hard and fight for everything they have only to have it stolen from them by greed, jealousy,envy and corruption. Just saying.