in 37 minutes Atlanta Police dept will arrest anybody still Occupying Woodruff Park (Added Videos) , page 14

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

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You missed the point here. The point is all these techy gadgety toys and stuff being used while doing anti corporation protests. They need to dump all electronics and such items and live directly off the land like they are recommending everyone do by getting rid of corporations. That means no tents, no coffeemakers, no Nike shoes, no laptops, no iphones, no electric stoves, etc.

and definitely nothing with a CARBON FOOTPRINT

Nice stereotyping there!

Not every protester is a green or anti-coproration. What is common to all the protesters is their disgust of corporations controlling the government, not the use of corporate products or existence of corporations. Some may want to claim that the "right" way to protest any corporate actions is to hit them where it hurts, by not buying their products, which is like saying the "right" way to protest government actions in a democracy is to vote the representatives out.. Each makes as much sense as the other.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by BravoBull

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Actually, there are two important things to consider when looking at what I wrote there. First, my whole attitude toward Atlanta changed after watching several more hours of their group and having a few pieces of information clarified by the posts given by the OP on this thread.

Second though, was the fact that when I wrote that, I was with everyone else watching live as Atlanta Police Department was staging a massive force (given the number they would have been hitting) to apparently stomp the protesters every bit as much as Boston DID get it a bit later the same night.

So.... I suppose in hindsight, my comments deserved your response. On the other hand, take what I said here along with it. As a matter of fact, the events of Boston and coming to understand the Atlanta group a bit better by observing their GA and overall situation by the live streaming...I may just be in Atlanta Saturday. I'm still debating which direction I'm going to spend some time at one of these...but thus far, Atlanta is looking like one of the most promising for an organized and well grounded group of folks to be around for a bit of time.

People can change...and mindsets can evolve with new facts or perspectives. In this case, I got a lot of both.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. My apologies for the caustic reply to the last post. I guess my ire was up from going through a few threads where posters of the fox news/rush limbaugh ilk were criticizing the demonstrators for not knowing what they were protesting about, no clear message, nothing will change, etc... Everyone is at different levels of awareness and our views will always be shaped by our experience and unfortunately the drivel that is spewed by the corporate media. Those people do not even recognize that en masse people are starting to awaken. They would disparage the movement as a "communist/socialist" plot. While I admit, there will be organizations in power and that want to maintain that power, who will try to channel this energy to their own purposes. Only time will tell if the OWP people will recognize this and refuse to be herded. But I won't denigrate the fact that America is starting to realize we are being led and controlled for the benefit of a few and not for the progress of humanity. Its a shame that the loudest voices in all of this are generally part of the problem and not interested in real fundamental change.

reply to post by BravoBull

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point taken. sorry for the mix up fam!

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

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I understood. So did Lewis. The look on his face cannot be taken out of context. He got the message. Parliamentary procedure at an protest! In my world Hero's are treated with dignity and you interrupt silly rituals to accommodate them if they are willing to support you. It was a mistake.

I don't care for his politics but he deserved to be shown respect.

The video I saw was not narrated and was uncut.

What I see is no clear message and a lot of silly procedure to pretend it's organized, along with a near complete takeover by the Democratic Party in most areas. They own it now.

Still, I'm all for it as long as it remains peaceful. Sad though it's been taken over by the folks who brought us this mess in the first place. Once MoveOn, Soros, the unions and people like Van Jones joined in they own it.

I'm curious here; can you give your message in detail? What exactly are you asking for as a group? How many of you are there around the country? How do you coordinate and communicate? How did you arrive at your platform and message?

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

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I understood. So did Lewis. The look on his face cannot be taken out of context. He got the message. Parliamentary procedure at an protest! In my world Hero's are treated with dignity and you interrupt silly rituals to accommodate them if they are willing to support you. It was a mistake

It was perfect, no mistake. If he came to express support, he already did by presenting himself. If he came to steal the limelight by getting VIP treatment, he failed as he should.

I don't care for his politics but he deserved to be shown respect.

He wasn't disrespected, but wasn't treated like a VIP whose presence would somehow mean more than absence, because that simply is not the case. It is a movement looking for popular support for the issue, not the support of just former heroes and celebrities. If some are disappointed because their heroes are not being given VIP treatment, they are not ready to join the movement yet.

It sent the exact message that should be and frankly I am surprised these guys are so clear in what they are not going to do.

I'm curious here; can you give your message in detail? What exactly are you asking for as a group?

I am not part of the movement or live anywhere near the US and get my information on this solely from the web and I already know what the message/demand of the group are. Wonder how others can miss it. Anyway here are the two key demands/ the message.
1. End crony capitalism/corporatism
2. End US military interventions in the rest of the world.

How many of you are there around the country? How do you coordinate and communicate?

Why would that be of interest to anyone except someone who is part of the movement or someone who intends to disrupt it?

How did you arrive at your platform and message?

That too is crystal clear. All those fed up with the status quo gathered to protest and what was the common grouse for everyone emerged simply by everyone expressing what most troubles them about the status quo and discovering what resonates with everyone.

Confucianism and Humanism and the dogma of heroes. No one ise the leader and every thing is done for the human society. I guess you could say its communism and other things. But if you want to blame some one for bring it to this country. Blame Bush. He is the one who put a Confucius Institute in every college arounds the country.

en.wikipedia.org...

Where are they?

United States
Confucius Institute in Atlanta [195]
Alfred University [196]
Arizona State University [197]
Bryant University [198]
Chinese Opera at SUNY at Binghampton [199]
Chicago Public Schools [200]
China Institute (New York) [201]
Cleveland State University [202]
Columbia University [203]
Community College of Denver [204]
George Mason University [205]
Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis (IUPUI) [206]
Kennesaw State University [207]
Miami Dade College [208]
Miami University in Ohio [209]
Michigan State University [210]
Middle Tennessee State University [211]
New Mexico State University [212]
North Carolina State University [213]
Pace University [214]
Pennsylvania State University [215]
Pfeiffer University [216]
Portland State University [217]
Presbyterian College [218]
Purdue University [219]
Rutgers University [220]
San Diego State University [221]
San Francisco State University [222]
State University of New York at Buffalo [223]
State of Washington [224]
State College of Optometry [225]
Stony Brook University [226]
Texas A & M University [227]
Troy University [228]
University of Akron [229]
University of Alaska Anchorage[230]
University of Arizona [231]
University of California, Los Angeles [232]
University of Central Arkansas [233]
University of Chicago [234]
University of Delaware [235]
University of Hawaii at Manoa (UHM-CI) [236]
University of Iowa [237]
University of Kansas [238]
University of Kentucky [239]
University of Maryland [240]
University of Massachusetts Boston [241]
University of Memphis [242]
University of Minnesota [243]
University of Montana [244]
University of Nebraska-Lincoln [245]
University of New Hampshire [246]
University of Oklahoma [247]
University of Oregon [248]
University of Pittsburgh [249]
University of Rhode Island [250]
University of South Carolina [251]
University of South Florida [245]
University of Texas at Dallas [246]
University of Texas at San Antonio [247]
University of Toledo [248]
University of Utah [249]
University of Wisconsin-Platteville [250]
Valparaiso University [251]
Wayne State University [252]
Webster University [253]
Western Kentucky University [254]
Western Michigan University [

confuciusinstitute.unl.edu...

But I guess it is chaos when people are so entrenched in left vs right white vs black rich vs poor. They get confused when they don't have two sides to pick from. How can they pick when there are more than two sides. Maybe pick a msm news channel and do what they say. I think the ones on that channel look better than the other the girls are prettier I pick them. Ill do what they want.

Start thinking for your self! They have you programmed. And I support OWS. But I don't support China. And if OWS and the 99% pick pieces from different things to use as tactics to fight for good.Im with them. If they sale out and start picking a way to live that leaves the rich raping me but just change the guys doing it. I don't support them. OWS is on the right track to avoid sides and stay independant of any group. Any group can back them. But they can't lead them. Its bigger then one group or even a few groups. Its all of us!!

And if you think about it. This could also be Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. The favorite of the Tea Party. The favorite of Rand Paul. The favorite of Ron Paul. The favorite of the Koch Brothers.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

She called it a collective society and said every thing would be done for society. That sounds like Russian Communism with a twist. Well she was a Russian who hated the elites who Russia tried to kick out in the Twenty's and thirty's I think is the time frame.

reply to post by JBA2848

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are you sure it's Ayn Rand to whom you refer?

this Ayn Rand ...

In politics, she condemned the initiation of force as immoral and opposed all forms of collectivism and statism, instead supporting laissez-faire capitalism, which she believed was the only social system that protected individual rights

above quoted from your first wiki link.

if so, i have to ask ... which "collectivism" did she promote?

more from same link ...

Nonetheless she continues to have a popular following, and her political ideas have been influential among libertarians and some conservatives.

just wondering how your leaders / teachers managed to mislead you folks sooooo very well.

and once more for the record ...
AdBusters organized and leads the OWS movement ... that is a fact.
AdBusters is funded by Soros vis the Tides Foundation ... this is also a fact.

while it's true the American ppl could potentially sway the outcome of such an assembly, it is more likely that the intent of the assembly has nothing to do with rescuing anything except Obama's re-election.

reply to post by Honor93

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She was very confusing picking pieces of different forms of governments and creating a fictional government that would never work. But it all sounded like Utopia to who ever heard it. That was the magic of creating a fictional Utopia and turning it into a propaganda type society that all could enjoy. Here fellow Russian CIA agent did a good job of picking her apart in the 50's.
www.orthodoxytoday.org...

For politics, of course, arise, though the author of Atlas Shrugged stares stonily past them, as if this book were not what, in fact it is, essentially — a political book. And here begins mischief. Systems of philosophic materialism, so long as they merely circle outside this world's atmosphere, matter little to most of us. The trouble is that they keep coming down to earth. It is when a system of materialist ideas presumes to give positive answers to real problems of our real life that mischief starts. In a age like ours, in which a highly complex technological society is everywhere in a high state of instability, such answers however philosophic, translate quickly into political realities. And in the degree to which problems of complexity and instability are most bewildering to masses of men, a temptation sets in to let some species of Big Brother solve and supervise them.

One Big Brother is of course, a socializing elite (as we know, several cut-rate brands are on the shelves). Miss Rand, as the enemy of any socializing force, calls in a Big Brother of her own contriving to do battle with the other. In the name of free enterprise, therefore, she plumps for a technocratic elite (I find no more inclusive word than technocratic to bracket the industrial-financial-engineering caste she seems to have in mind). When she calls "productive achievement" man's "noblest activity," she means, almost exclusively, technological achievement, supervised by such a managerial political bureau. She might object that she means much, much more; and we can freely entertain her objections. But in sum, that is just what she means. For that is what, in reality, it works out to. And in reality, too, by contrast, with fiction, this can only head into a dictatorship, however benign, living and acting beyond good and evil, a law unto itself (as Miss Rand believes it should be), and feeling any restraint on itself as, in practice, criminal, and, in morals, vicious — as Miss Rand clearly feels it to be. Of course, Miss Rand nowhere calls for a dictatorship. I take her to be calling for an aristocracy of talents. We cannot labor here why, in the modern world, the pre-conditions for aristocracy, an organic growth, no longer exist, so that impulse toward aristocracy always emerges now in the form of dictatorship.

And she wanted was the Russian government not to be picking people to create elites who would run everything and be rich. She didn't want any body being told what job they had to do. She wanted creative freedom for every one. But who would do what no one wanted to do? She wanted the Communism but just changed to her liking.

Originally posted by JBA2848
reply to post by Honor93

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She was very confusing picking pieces of different forms of governments and creating a fictional government that would never work. But it all sounded like Utopia to who ever heard it. That was the magic of creating a fictional Utopia and turning it into a propaganda type society that all could enjoy.

Sure. She is a real sorry excuse for an intellectual and her popularity only demonstrates the lack of intellectual capacity or intellectual integrity on that part of many who consider themselves intellectuals. However that doesn't mean she can be called a collectivist, because despite all her confusion, one thing she most definitely was not, was a collectivist.

reply to post by JBA2848

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i read her works and i wouldn't necessarily agree with your referenced critique.
while she does seem "flighty" regarding her foundations, she firmly asserts that capitalism (or a form of it) is the only social and economic structure that would protect the rights of the individual.
i can agree with that.
however, that it automatically leads to a dictatorship, well, with the right influence, anything can lead there.

i just don't understand how the OWS ppl / supporters can use Ayn as a reference for their activities.
it makes no sense to me how her stance on the politics and economics of such applies to their movement. they are two worlds apart.

reply to post by Honor93

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She knew 99% win and 1% will lose. For the group that made up 99% had 99% of the power legally. The 1% is only 1% because they have no more power than individual people in the group. And money ment nothing about having more power to vote it is based on 1 vote 1 person. She even supports voluntary labor unions not forced unions.

Any group or “collective,” large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members. In a free society, the “rights” of any group are derived from the rights of its members through their voluntary, individual choice and contractual agreement, and are merely the application of these individual rights to a specific undertaking. Every legitimate group undertaking is based on the participants’ right of free association and free trade. (By “legitimate,” I mean: noncriminal and freely formed, that is, a group which no one was forced to join.)

For instance, the right of an industrial concern to engage in business is derived from the right of its owners to invest their money in a productive venture—from their right to hire employees—from the right of the employees to sell their services—from the right of all those involved to produce and to sell their products—from the right of the customers to buy (or not to buy) those products. Every link of this complex chain of contractual relationships rests on individual rights, individual choices, individual agreements. Every agreement is delimited, specified and subject to certain conditions, that is, dependent upon a mutual trade to mutual benefit.

This is true of all legitimate groups or associations in a free society: partnerships, business concerns, professional associations, labor unions (voluntary ones), political parties, etc. It applies also to all agency agreements: the right of one man to act for or represent another or others is derived from the rights of those he represents and is delegated to him by their voluntary choice, for a specific, delimited purpose—as in the case of a lawyer, a business representative, a labor union delegate, etc.

A group, as such, has no rights. A man can neither acquire new rights by joining a group nor lose the rights which he does possess. The principle of individual rights is the only moral base of all groups or associations.

Any group that does not recognize this principle is not an association, but a gang or a mob.

Any doctrine of group activities that does not recognize individual rights is a doctrine of mob rule or legalized lynching.

www.aynrand.org...

She also supported the Kerensky Revolution in Russia which was followed by the creation of unions. But then the unions over through of that government happened and she didn't like that. I think thats where she gets most of her ideas from. The mixture of two forms of communism and how it could of been done better.

reply to post by BravoBull

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I appreciate the reply and no apologies necessary.It's entirely fair to say my comments had not been that thoughtful prior to my change of heart on this. I think we're all coming to the table with the same general feelings. We're all fed up and had about all we can take of the abuse, the total indifference we're seeing from our leaders to everything that is falling apart around us and the total lack of hope where once we were promised we'd have plenty to hope for. Hoping for change FROM it wasn't quite what we were told that would come to mean.

My main point being.. We're ALL on edge like never before. I see it from ATS to the grocery store down the street. It takes so little to become angry right now or see others fly off on trivial 'provocations'. I think if we all keep that factor in mind, we can do more to counter it before it gets out of hand....myself very much included in that. Stay safe.

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