Living Species of Aquatic Beetle Found in 20-Million-Year-Old Sediments

Science Daily.com

ScienceDaily (Oct. 6, 2011) — A study of an Early Miocene fossil from southern Siberia performed by an international team of researchers, from the National Museum in Prague, Voronezh State University and the Museum of Natural History in London, led to the surprising find that the fossil belongs to a species of aquatic beetles which is still alive today and widely distributed in Eurasia.

I was just having a conversation with my best friend while hiking at Mt. Rose(Northern Nevada near Lake Tahoe) about the possibility of finding a 100,000 year old frog in hibernation still alive in the permafrost or in a glacier. I am not at all surprised by this discovery and wonder what awaits us in the ice especially in places like Antarctica.

The conversation came up as we were sitting having a snack by a pond filled by snow melt housing a small frog species that hibernates in icy condition throughout the entire cold season about 6000 feet up the mountain. (We're nerds what can I say). The key in these types of frogs is glycerin filling their blood stream and surrounding their vital organs preventing crystallization in the cells of the frogs. In theory they could be frozen there for years and years without dying, perfectly preserved by the ice.

It would be interesting to see how many other species have this and similar preservation abilities.

Of course all they found was a fossilized beetle, a species still alive today. However, what if there were a species of beetle or amphibian that could survive a multi-million year old freeze and be thawed out? Or a species of some kind of organism that could hibernate in a fossil?


Edit to add:

Pardon. The story led to me other speculations on the preservation of species in ice and sediments. I apologize for any confusion my flight of fancy may have caused.

reply to post by projectvxn


You're not trying to suggest they found a live beetle are you? If so I think you misread the article....here let me quote " led to the surprising find that the fossil belongs to a species of aquatic beetles which is still alive today and widely distributed in Eurasia."

They found a fossil....not a live beetle.....The fossil just happened to belong to a species that is still alive today.

reply to post by bhornbuckle75


No not at all. I posted before I finished my thought.

I was just fancying the idea that it could be possible to find a species of frog or insect frozen alive in ice or even covered over with stone.

Sorry for the confusion.

reply to post by projectvxn


I don't know if I get what you are saying, but it sounds like you are confused maybe? They are just saying that same species of beetle is a live today. Not that a 20 mil year old one was preserved/alive in some way.

wow, good find, what are the odds? like the quest for one particular grain on sand, but looking all over all the beaches of the world,

since 99.9% species that ever lived on Earth, are now extinct. lucky beetle eh, like horse shoe crabs

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


Again, I let my imagination go without thinking it through as to how it would come across.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by projectvxn
Science Daily.com

ScienceDaily (Oct. 6, 2011) — A study of an Early Miocene fossil from southern Siberia performed by an international team of researchers, from the National Museum in Prague, Voronezh State University and the Museum of Natural History in London, led to the surprising find that the fossil belongs to a species of aquatic beetles which is still alive today and widely distributed in Eurasia.

I was just having a conversation with my best friend while hiking at Mt. Rose(Northern Nevada near Lake Tahoe) about the possibility of finding a 100,000 year old frog in hibernation still alive in the permafrost or in a glacier. I am not at all surprised by this discovery and wonder what awaits us in the ice especially in places like Antarctica.

The conversation came up as we were sitting having a snack by a pond filled by snow melt housing a small frog species that hibernates in icy condition throughout the entire cold season about 6000 feet up the mountain. (We're nerds what can I say). The key in these types of frogs is glycerin filling their blood stream and surrounding their vital organs preventing crystallization in the cells of the frogs. In theory they could be frozen there for years and years without dying, perfectly preserved by the ice.

It would be interesting to see how many other species have this and similar preservation abilities.

Of course all they found was a fossilized beetle, a species still alive today. However, what if there were a species of beetle or amphibian that could survive a multi-million year old freeze and be thawed out? Or a species of some kind of organism that could hibernate in a fossil?

edit on 9-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

Edit to add:

Pardon. The story led to me other speculations on the preservation of species in ice and sediments. I apologize for any confusion my flight of fancy may have caused.

edit on 9-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

I don't see why that couldn't be possible and it would be exciting to see. My only worry would be that there would be some kind of multi-million year old virus or bacteria that was also preserved with it that we can't cure.

www.biokids.umich.edu...

In the winter, Eastern Gray Treefrogs bury themselves beneath logs, leaves and dirt. About 40% of their body can freeze during the winter. They keep their blood stream from freezing by producing an antifreeze-like fluid called glycerol. The rest of their body fluids usually become frozen during hibernation.

That's what I believe the OP is talking about. He would think it cool if a frog had been frozen this way for a long time and then found. I also think it would be an awesome find.

So it seems that evolution for this species stopped some 20 million years ago. A copy from today is the same as a 20 million year old copy. Both side of the evolution debate are going to have fun with this one.

reply to post by bhornbuckle75

reply to post by projectvxn



No problem....just wanted to clear up what you were saying. Actually I have heard of cases of frogs being found embedded in pockets within solid rock, coming out and hopping away after a period of readjusting...it's always claimed that the rock is thousands if not millions of years old.

Charles Fort wrote about such stories pretty often.....though they are generally just word of mouth, with very little evidence...except the occasional hollowed out rock. The frog is generally always gone by that point.

One thing that is a bit more believable though is the Idea of bacteria being found in rocks or ice from millions of years ago, and then being 'brought back to life' after they are exposed to air. I believe there has been some credible evidence of this, though I can't recall where I read about it.

reply to post by bhornbuckle75


I've read old articles of grave robber digging up graves of long dead individuals who have died of things like Tuberculosis and then being infected by it.

Though million year old bacteria or viruses is more likely possible in ice encapsulation than in rock in my opinion.

Originally posted by bhornbuckle75


Charles Fort wrote about such stories pretty often.....though they are generally just word of mouth, with very little evidence...except the occasional hollowed out rock. The frog is generally always gone by that point.

One thing that is a bit more believable though is the Idea of bacteria being found in rocks or ice from millions of years ago, and then being 'brought back to life' after they are exposed to air. I believe there has been some credible evidence of this, though I can't recall where I read about it.

article(s) about that would be awesome to read about in this thread,

too.

Of course it can happen. There was a documentary about it that freaked me out.
Link

reply to post by Phage


That's cute.

But I was simply encouraging the idea for exploration.

I do wonder if it is at all possible for certain species who can hibernate in icy conditions to remain frozen for a long time. Or even to be preserved in sediment for many thousands of years and still survive.

While I've only ever read speculation on such a possibility, I think it would be more likely that we find bacteria or viruses in such a state than more complex life.

reply to post by projectvxn

Not exactly what you're talking about, but very interesting.
www.i-fink.com...

reply to post by fixer1967


This fossil beetle is physiologically indistinguishable from an extant species. That in and of itself isn't particularly interesting; morphological differences between organisms can often be so minute as to be indistinguishable... but they are still different species (take the "new" species of clouded leopard, for example). Odds are good that the living beetles have gained quite a lot of genetic change since the Miocene, though. That is... evolution has carried on just fine. It doesn't stop just because a species of ape sometimes doesn't grasp the concept of "evolution" very well.

reply to post by ignant


Here's a decent one about frogs and such found in stones....plus here's the cartoon the article references that was inspired by such stories (I'm sure you've seen it...it's a classic!)

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by projectvxn

 

Not exactly what you're talking about, but very interesting.
www.i-fink.com...

Not exactly but damned close.

I wonder how many pools like this are around? And if more complex life could live in such conditions if not lay dormant for long periods of time?

reply to post by projectvxn


It's cool I wasn't trying to rip on you and I wouldn't have said anything if I'd seen someone posted with the same question. The other fellow and I posted at about the same time.