'No papers, no water’: The sign denying basic services to Alabama’s illegal residents.

reply to post by Attrei


Tennessee has been working on not being an illegal immigrant magnet for some time now. Currently, we are in court because the state is trying to force people to show an official ID if they want to vote. It's catching some legal seniors in the net and the ACLU is fighting their cases. I can't buy beer without my ID. Why should someone get to do something as important as vote without proving they're eligible to do so?

Originally posted by Maslo

As long as unemployment among american citizens is greater than NAIRU rate (cca 4%), you do not need more labor force, in fact you need less, since high unemployment is harmful.

Actually, what you need is "willing labor".

There is no shortage of "relative" poor people among american legal citizens and legal immigrants.

There are two kinds of poor people, those who are poor because of circumstance, and those who are poor because they have nothing to offer. The immigrants are poor, but they have something to offer, that's why they come to America.

And the richer and more advanced the stuff bought, the more likely will it benefit US economy, and not China. If one rich person buys a private jet or some expensive service, it helps developed US economy more than if 20 people buy largely imported radios and cheap consumer products.

There are a few nations where the people on average are all wealthy, like Switzerland and Luxembourg. But, they live on the monies of other nations, by offering special financial services that enable wealthy to avoid taxes. Apart from that, you can't have an all wealthy population. Somebody has to do the manual labor, to transport the goods, to mix the concrete...etc..

I think many unemployed americans would want to become the floor. Better than being unemployed.

Those Americans are currently living below the floor, in the basement. They are not likely to rise up any time soon. The removal of the immigrants will only cause those on the first floor to fall down to the ground floor. The current Americans hiding in the basement will likely continue to hold forte there. Their unemployment is an issue of real poverty, they are the ones with nothing to offer. That's why the illegals could come in and take the ground floor positions. They represented much better value for money than the basement dwellers. The only people who have the "work ethic" to fill the immigrant positions are those Americans currently on the first floor above. So, that's their next job.

Yes, but its irrelevant whether its a lot of expensive stuff bought by few persons, or many persons buying cheap stuff. In fact, for a developed economy first option may be better because cheap stuff comes from import.

The cheap stuff represents a strong "diverse economy" the expensive stuff is too unique, with too few customers for stability.

Is Water a Basic Human Right?

Damn right it is! Without it, the death rate is 100%. Seriously, those on death row...hell, even the prisoners in Gitmo...are granted this basic necessity of life. Denying water to these illegal residents is synonymous with clamping down on their throat and telling them they can't have air without their papers.

Denying one single individual this basic human right is more criminal than any harm done by someone living within the confines of the wrong geopolitical boundary.

reply to post by jude11


"And before people get on the illegal immigrant rant, YOU can also be denied water as a US citizen:

And American citizens who have recently moved to the state may be forced into a race against time to gain state documentation or face having their taps switched off by the Alabama Water Works. Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk..."

I don't have a problem with this. I have lived in multiple states and the first thing I do when I move is get a new license valid in that state. Common sense dictates this and it just makes things easier. I for one am for this and don't see your problem with this..?

reply to post by Oldtimer2


Dear, I am a hardworking 40 hour week Alabamian. I have never had to claim unemployment or welfare. My Mom tried for short term food stamps while single with two kids since my worthless father didn't give child support and the lady at the welfare office told her to QUIT HER JOB. My Mom, bless her, got a 2nd, then for a short while a 3rd job. So do not slur Alabamians in general.

There are quite a few welfare babies here but there are also quite a few proud, and working, Southern Americans who just want a safer place to live and are very very tired of Hispanics moving into the neighborhoods and trash is everywhere, a pig in their yard (personal experience with a Hispanic neighbor family), mean kids with no respect for anyone or anything, and the drugs and gangs.. I cannot begin to describe the difference between before and after. Yes, there have been some decent Hispanic families but they are few and far between. The best I knew had a regular who would get drunk.. daily, and pee in public wherever he happened to be. That was one of the good families. By the way, on average from my personal experience, there is usually at least 2-3 couples with half a dozen children living in a 3 bedroom house. They seem to rotate the sleeping arrangements, I guess? and did I mention the pig...in the middle of a city..?

Originally posted by mhinsey
reply to post by jude11

 

"And before people get on the illegal immigrant rant, YOU can also be denied water as a US citizen:

Can you imagine, a tornado wipes out your home, you lose all your papers proving your right to live there, and you can't get water anymore because a natural disaster just made you "undocumented" !

Have fun, guys.

reply to post by VictorVonDoom


The State is in a water war with two other states and the issue is how much water needs to be used. So if there is a decrease of people using water the better it is overall.

Originally posted by muse7
To be perfectly honest guys, I do seriously think that Alabama would be one of the few states that would TRULY benefit from laws like these, since the majority of the population there is only qualified to do the jobs that only illegal aliens would do.

Actually Alabama has a high quotient of IT technology.. so get off the Alabama sucks kick and read up. That's as bad as saying all Hispanics suck.. you are showing your ignorance just as much as anyone. Just because you think Southerners are stupid doesn't mean it is true. As with any other generalized statement, it may be partially true but never really true.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by DRAZIW

 

Ok, here we go, Progressive Gooble Dee Goop.
That is all I needed.

On to the next thing.

Just come out and state this "It's a living document that changes with the times", "Open borders" and "What is reality" and that should sum you up nicely.

You want the "easy" answer to things.

The only easy answer is open borders.

Open borders? That means no background checks, no health checks. So it would be ok for you to have murderers, pedophiles, thieves, gangs, diseases etc. coming over the border? really smart. NOT!

Originally posted by Night Star

Open borders? That means no background checks, no health checks. So it would be ok for you to have murderers, pedophiles, thieves, gangs, diseases etc. coming over the border? really smart. NOT!

Gotta take the good with the bad.

Murderers etc.. come over in business suits and pass all checks too.

Besides society feeds on the bad. Diseases etc give doctors and nurses work, murders create jobs for more cops, and border patrol agents, thieves create more sales as the victims restock their loss supplies, etc..it's all good.

Don't be so picky, everyone has a place in the economy.

Originally posted by mhinsey

Actually Alabama has a high quotient of IT technology..

That might be the problem right there. Too many IT people. Nobody left to pour cement and chop wood.

Americans have gravitated to arm chair jobs, nobody wants to sweat any more. That's why all those undocumented are there.

They do the sweat.

reply to post by DRAZIW

Besides society feeds on the bad. Diseases etc give doctors and nurses work, murders create jobs for more cops, and border patrol agents, thieves create more sales as the victims restock their loss supplies, etc..it's all good.

Broken Window Fallacy

Repairing the damage almost never yelds equal or more benefit to economy and society as if the damage never occured. You cant cheat physical world with economics.

If half of USA was destroyed, GDP would incredibly rose due to reconstruction efforts, but that only fixes the destruction, there is no net benefit compared to scenario when the destruction never occured, because the resources spent on reconstruction could be spent elsewhere, on actual improvement.

The same with resources spent on nurses, diseases, cops, patrol agents, restocking stolen property etc...

You cant reduce societal wellbeing to just GDP.

OK, redneck has been silent long enough.

I absolutely support Governor Bentley in this. It's a necessary law that has been a long time coming. Illegal immigrants are draining the economy of the region and hurting those of us who have lived and worked here all our lives. Apparently, while I made perhaps the biggest mistake of my life voting for Obama, I did some good as well by voting for Bentley.

This article is from the Daily News, and is either a hysterical blog or deliberately misleading. In the first place, and I quote from the OP:

And before people get on the illegal immigrant rant, YOU can also be denied water as a US citizen:

And American citizens who have recently moved to the state may be forced into a race against time to gain state documentation or face having their taps switched off by the Alabama Water Works. Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...

Wrong.

If someone had bothered to read the actual text of HR56, they would see that identification can be any of the following (this is copied from the text of HR56, but formatted for this post):

• A valid, unexpired Alabama driver’s license.
  
  
• A valid, unexpired Alabama nondriver identification card.
  
  
• A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification bearing a photograph or other biometric identifier.
  
  
• Any valid United States federal or state government issued identification document bearing a photograph or other biometric identifier, if issued by an entity that requires proof of lawful presence in the United States before issuance.
  
  
• A foreign passport with an unexpired United States Visa and a corresponding stamp or notation by the United States Department of Homeland Security indicating the bearer’s admission to the United States.
  
  
• A foreign passport issued by a visa waiver country with the corresponding entry stamp and unexpired duration of stay annotation or an I-94W form by the United States Department of Homeland Security indicating the bearer’s admission to the United States.

That means the concern expressed over US citizens from out of state is completely unfounded.

The worry over police snatching people up on the streets and deporting them wholesale is also unfounded:

(10) LAWFUL PRESENCE or LAWFULLY PRESENT. A person shall be regarded as an alien unlawfully present in the United States only if the person’s unlawful immigration status has been verified by the federal government pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1373(c). No officer of this state or any political subdivision of this state shall attempt to independently make a final determination of an alien’s immigration status.

And of course, the very TITLE of this thread is incorrect as well, and a wild assumption from the Daily Mail... nowhere in the text of HR56 is it stated that illegal immigrants (or anyone else for that matter) is prohibited from having water... they are only prohibited from buying it from municipal water supplies. I have water, and I don't buy it from the recycled waste peddlers... I have a well. So those who agree with the Daily Mail in this thread are obviously saying they believe illegals to deserve something that all Americans do not have.

Also, what's all this talk about rights to water? Really? No one is talking about draining a water supply; the only concern is that municipal water supplies cannot set up accounts for illegal immigrants. They can have all the water they want... but they'll have to get it without government help. No one has the right to the services of another; that is slavery. Saying someone has a right to water supplied by another is akin to saying someone has the right to come up and use the gas in your car just because they exist. It is akin to saying anyone has the right to come into your home and eat your food anytime they want. It is saying furthermore that if you run out of food and they are still hungry, they can demand you supply more food.

Think about this... how many Alabamians right now are struggling to pay their water bill due to the economy? Would you support their 'right' to stop paying their bill and yet still continue to get water? Really? Stop paying your water bill and see how long that lasts. A right means you cannot be denied access for any reason, and that does not apply to the public water supply, nor to the public electrical supply, nor to public natural gas supplies... it doesn't apply to any commodity.

The jobs are coming back here... and right now, after being unemployed/underemployed for over two years, that's my concern. I have plenty of sympathy for others, but not when the actions of others are causing misery to honest people.

Robert Bentley for President 2016!

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
OK, redneck has been silent long enough.

Also, what's all this talk about rights to water? Really? No one is talking about draining a water supply; the only concern is that municipal water supplies cannot set up accounts for illegal immigrants. They can have all the water they want... but they'll have to get it without government help.

Well, America is the land of opportunity. And they've just created a new opportunity.

Some enterprising Americans will setup independent water supply companies. They will dig wells, and sell water to those who can't get from the municipal authority. There's profit in buying and selling water. Water is big business. Currently, only "drinking water" is profitable for corporate exploitation because local municipalities provide good enough cheap water for all other purposes. But, once water is made scarce by law, it becomes a profitable enterprise. Like illegal drugs, laws against, raise the prices, that's all.

The problem with this, though, is that corporate greed will probably dig too many wells, drain the water table, and affect the municipal water supply, because they draw water from the same source, just from different points on the ground. Corporations may even contaminate the water supply, in their hurry to compete. Do we really want any and everybody digging into that pure water supply that everybody needs to use?

Also, illegals with their own homes will probably dig their own wells, using cheap tools, may contaminate the water table again, due to inexperience and lack of knowledge, may even leave holes in the ground so rain water contaminates the underground supply without being filtered by the rock etc...

Then again, an enterprising neighbor, who is a citizen, can cut a deal with his illegal neighbor, make an easy profit, selling water at a markup to the municipal rate, and let the illegal tap into his pipes.

It's all good. Make money. That's all that matters.

No one will go athurst. The undocumented will just have to pay more for water than the citizens, and that means they''l have to charge a higher rate at for their services at the job site, where they pour cement and pick fruit.

reply to post by TheRedneck


Long time, no see Redneck. You are a breath of fresh air, in a very stale thread.

I gave up trying to have a sane and rational discourse with DRAZIW ...best of luck to you Redneck.

Welcome to the nut thread. Have missed your clarity.

Des

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by mhinsey
reply to post by jude11

 

"And before people get on the illegal immigrant rant, YOU can also be denied water as a US citizen:

Can you imagine, a tornado wipes out your home, you lose all your papers proving your right to live there, and you can't get water anymore because a natural disaster just made you "undocumented" !

Have fun, guys.

That's why you should remember your ssn. If you know that, you will never be undocumented. Come on. That is just a lame statement.

Originally posted by Destinyone


I gave up trying to have a sane and rational discourse with DRAZIW ...best of luck to you Redneck.

That's because you have nothing to say.

If you had something, you'd present it, since DRAZIW isn't the only one reading here.

reply to post by DRAZIW

Well, you certainly have a solid grasp of the situation...

Let's assume what you say is correct, and corporations will try to sell water to illegal immigrants. That's going to be one seriously tough enterprise to make profitable, because

Section 11. (a) It is unlawful for a person who is an unauthorized alien to knowingly apply for work, solicit work in a public or private place, or perform work as an employee or independent contractor in this state.

Source: latindispatch.com...

That means they will be selling water to the unemployed. The unemployed typically do not have much money.

More likely, there will be apartments or trailer parks which rent living space with such utilities included. Of course, these will again be selling to the unemployed, meaning they will be extremely low-cost and therefore poorly maintained. But it makes more sense, since the utilities would be sold not to those renting the spaces but to the owners, than the idea of new businesses digging wells or building recycling water plants.

So this concern:

The problem with this, though, is that corporate greed will probably dig too many wells, drain the water table, and affect the municipal water supply, because they draw water from the same source, just from different points on the ground. Corporations may even contaminate the water supply, in their hurry to compete. Do we really want any and everybody digging into that pure water supply that everybody needs to use?

is completely baseless.

Also, illegals with their own homes will probably dig their own wells, using cheap tools...

I wonder how many illegal aliens are homeowners?

Then again, an enterprising neighbor, who is a citizen, can cut a deal with his illegal neighbor, make an easy profit, selling water at a markup to the municipal rate, and let the illegal tap into his pipes.

It's all good. Make money. That's all that matters.

Yeah, that will probably happen. Especially if said neighbor is in dire economic straits because of the lack of jobs. It makes much more sense to sell water than to take the job the illegal alien is taking.

Not. You really should think these things through before you start typing... just sayin'...

No one will go athurst. The undocumented will just have to pay more for water than the citizens, and that means they''l have to charge a higher rate at for their services at the job site, where they pour cement and pick fruit.

Exactly! Thank you! I was so afraid you had misunderstood!

When illegal aliens are able, by skirting the law anyway, to work for less than minimum wage, it means that Americans are fighting a losing battle for jobs. Americans have to be paid minimum wage by law, and since illegals are not abiding by the law anyway, they can undercut the rest of us. Now, by making them pay more to live here, their costs and their prices will go up so those that do decide to stay are at least on a more level playing field with the rest of us.

And here I thought you didn't understand...

TheRedneck

reply to post by Destinyone

Welcome to the nut thread.

Well, the tagline in my mini-profile does say "Seeking truth but finding nuts", so...

I am really impressed by this new law, as are most citizens I have spoken to. It is even a regular topic of discussion in my Business Law class this semester. I am also wondering how many of the 50 (or is it 60? ) states Obama is going to sue in this term? He seems to be racking up quite an impressive number already.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by Aggie Man

Is Water a Basic Human Right?

Damn right it is! Without it, the death rate is 100%. Seriously, those on death row...hell, even the prisoners in Gitmo...are granted this basic necessity of life. Denying water to these illegal residents is synonymous with clamping down on their throat and telling them they can't have air without their papers.

Denying one single individual this basic human right is more criminal than any harm done by someone living within the confines of the wrong geopolitical boundary.

I don't get any water with out proof of who I am and all that.... I have to pay. If I don't pay or cannot prove who I am, I don't get water.

Hey, what is stopping them from going to a public park and drinking from the water fountain? Or you know.... going back to their respective country and having all the water they want, legally.

When you pay to have water in your home, it is because it is a privilege. But like I said, there are ways to get access to water. Public water fountains and sinks for example. Nothing wrong with those.

So, quit acting like they would be completely cut off from water.

They don't have the right to water in their home, with out their papers, just like everyone else. If they can't come her legally and they need water, they have two choices.

Go back to their country of origin, or start living a lot closer to parks.

Frankly, I support the law. They are not asking anything that legal citizens don't have to do as well.

If every State had this law and enforced it, well, that would take care of illegal immigration, pretty fast.

I am all for LEGAL immigration. Being from Texas I know lots of people who came to this country the legal way. Even they have told me they do not like illegal immigrants.

Why? Well, there reasons varied between " It gives their country of origin a bad name" all the way to, " I did it the legal way and there is no reason they should not do the same.."

Makes sense to me.