So efficient we all don't need to work to sustain society?

I wonder at times if we have reached a level where we simply don't all need to work? What do we do about that? When we do reach that point if we have not? Shorten hours to 4 per day? 3 or 4 day work weeks? Sounds like a good idea to me to employ more people.

Reduce income on highest paid.
increase income of middle class.
cut work day an week in half.

Less, unemployed, less stress and work load on single individuals.More vacation time.

Is that where we are headed?

Originally posted by Xeven
Shorten hours to 4 per day? 3 or 4 day work weeks?
Is that where we are headed?

Thats what people were wondering a hundred years ago.

What actually happened was that the got half the people working the same hours, and the other half unemployed.

It's obviously on it's way. Constant advances in automation + ever increasing population= more people than jobs in existence. Something's going to have to be figured out, or we're going to have 50%+ unemployment.

Our whole economic and political system is an homage to the inevitability of scarcity. Imagine how radically things could change if this assumption changes.

I sometimes imagine the capital of the future will be creative instead of material, and any future currency might be rooted in energy output, be it intellectual or physical.

But the problem now is partly due to efficiency. We have more people than we need to sustain our society, but without work of a certain quality, living a dignified life is difficult. I do believe changes are needed.

reply to post by Xeven


We all need food and water to survive. Some one needs to work to make our drinkng water safe for consumption and some one needs to work on the farm to make your food. If farmers cannot finish their work in 4 hours, and then the farmer may agree with you and decide to take a vacaton...therefore, YOU will starve. If you chose to grow your own food or hunt for it, it will be more than 4 hours of WORK to accomplish it.
Thats reality.

Once efficiency is raised to the max level, there is no more way up, based upon what we currently are and have, except to improve our technology of machines and genetic composition of man to go higher.

If a worker can produce 10 shoes a day with machines, using this philosophy, he will be able to then produce 15 shoes, incrementally as tech and science moves up the scale.

As our world becomes more inhabitated and populated, mankind needs will be more, beginning with water and food, the very basic of survival. Desalination of sea water will become a critical developement. The progress of husbandry in agricultural resources will also have to step up, so too will the increase of labour needed thus employment.

Fortunately, we have the means and capability to do so, for our minds are far advance than we presume. Alone, we can only think so much, but when we combine, share and discuss ways and means to achieve improvements over current knowledge, mankind can and will excel.

BUT, the only thing holding mankind back are the selfish corporatists, whom benefitted from our improved tech and health by robbing our honest wages to support theirs and their progenies' decadent lifestyles instead of sharing it fairly, and worse, coupled with a puppet gov that protects such inequalities instead of protecting workers and own national industries.

Thus, our regression today.

Should the errors be corrected and changes made in the right direction, we will fulfill our ultimate destiny - to the stars, at a leisurely pace.

Efficiency does not mean 24/7, for we are not robots nor meant to be, as we are humans with a very advance mind than any robot that can be created, and would be necessary for it to be tapped once in a while, no matter what trade status we are at - Professor, or cleaner. Each is a valuable member of a diverse society that can bring their experiences to contribute to a better society and evolution of our race - human.

reply to post by Xeven


We reached that level long ago in ancient times, since then there were always people that do not work. Yet someone needs to work to sustain society, and not just sustain, but advance. That is not going to change anytime soon, IMHO.

I WANT I WANT I WANT: A future like this to look forward to! A suspended-in-space Rich Man wakes up on Captain Picard's ship and is upset about his money money money. He asks Picard, "Then whats the challenge?" (In an economy-less world) And the Captain replies, "To improve yourself!"
Star Trek's track record of things becoming reality is pretty good so far!

Yes a shorter work week would free so many. If every unskilled laborer is paid $20 an hour and works 30 hours per week that would be a $28,800. This is enough to live on. Simply have a new forumala to calculate bills and rent. Make it a law that an apartment complex can not charge more than 30% of a person's income that way his or her money can go further.
Capitilism does not work if people do not have extra money to spend. Honestly I can a new form of capitilism form from this that or get rid of money altogether.
People who have degrees would be paid $25 for a bachelors and $30 an hour for a masters. $35 for a Phd. For me simpler is much better. In our society we tend to overcomplicate things for ourselves. Why not have set wages and price freezes on non luxery items? It makes sense to me. After all how is anyone supposed to reach the self actulazation stage in the pryamid of needs if they always struggling just to keep the basics?
We really need to look at ou system from a humanist/psychological stand point forget money!

I believe you proceed from a false assumption.

No one works to maintain society; people work to maintain themselves. Think about everything you use on a daily basis. Here's my thoughts on that:

• I wake up in a bed, composed of a frame, a box springs, and a mattress, and covered in sheets and blankets. That frame is made of wood, which must be located, felled, cut into logs, sawn into boards, shaped into bed frame parts, finished, and assembled. It also contains steel, which must be mined, alloyed, shaped, and tempered before being cut, welded, and machined. The box springs and mattress contain cloth. That cloth must be grown, harvested, spun into yard, woven into cloth, before being cut and sewn to form the bed parts. If there are any man-made fibers used, oil must be pumped out of the ground after the well is located and drilled (using equipment that opens up a whole new list of things that must be done), refined to the proper weight, then chemically treated and spun into yarn and woven into cloth.
  
  
• I put on clothes. Those clothes are made of cloth as well, so all the above steps apply to them as well as the cloth in the bed, only someone also had to sew them together in a more complex manner. Someone also had to create the buttons and the zippers, which require more raw materials to make the machinery that produces them.
  
  
• If it's not too warm or too cold, that is because someone had to build power plants or refineries and operate them to produce electricity or fuel. The same thing goes for my ability to flip a switch and have enough light, or my ability to make a cup of coffee.
  
  
• I turn on the TV to check the news, and the computer to check ATS. The components are made out of rare metals which have to be mined and processed into pure wafers, doped with other materials, and turned into circuits by factories using many millions of dollars worth of high-tech machinery and using untold hours of labor to operate them. Not to mention the time that is spent to produce the news programs, the energy used to transmit them, the sets, the cameras, the editing equipment, the server(s) that holds ATS, the time spent writing the code, the time spent handling the day-to-day operations, etc., etc., etc. If we tried to follow that chain of labor all the way to the source, it would be a novel instead of a forum post.
  
  
• I eat breakfast, say ham and eggs. Someone had to tend that pig the ham came from, had to produce the food it ate, had to keep it vaccinated against disease, and finally had to kill, dress, and butcher it. Someone had to do the same for the chickens and then harvest and sort the eggs. And again, there has to be power to cook them.

I have been awake only a few minutes, but already I have used the services of millions of people. I still have to take a shower and I have to drive my car to get the things I need. Both of these open up completely new areas of industry at least as complex as the ones I mentioned above. A place to sit comfortably means someone made a chair, which means someone made the frame and the cloth, which means someone made the wood, the steel, and the yarn... and here we go again.

I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but your life is no one's responsibility except yours. You have so much around you, use so much of the labors of others, and you don't feel a responsibility to return the labor in your own way? That's selfish in the extreme.

We use money as a way to allow us to specialize. Farmers have more food than they could ever use, but they don't have metal refineries. So they sell their extra food and buy metal products. The metal refineries have plenty of metal, but no food, so they sell their metal and buy food. Money allows us to use what we have to get what we need without being forced to barter. We can buy products from all over the world that we would never be able to get through barter. By working to support ourselves, we advance society. We do not advance ourselves by working to support society.

If you can't produce something yourself, then you always have the option of helping someone else produce something or do something. That's called a "job", and there is nothing wrong with it. If all goes as it is supposed to, you will trade your labor or skill for money to support not society but yourself. By doing so, you will improve society.

Freedom, of course, means that if things do not go as they are supposed to, you can refuse to do that job. Of course, that means you will not get the benefits of the job, but you are free to make that choice and accept the consequences of your decision. Those millions of others who have worked to make you comfortable have that freedom as well... which means they do not have to do a single thing to help you. They expect to get paid, just as you would.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Things can't just stay the same though! We need POSTIVE change! I have friends who work 50-60 hours a week just to have the basics of life. I worked years a go 65 hours a week and still lived with my parents. I nearly died and the dr told me I had to cut down to 30 hours a week or I may not make to 40.
As a psychology major I realize the importance of good mental health without you are giving yourself a death wish. We manifest within our body symptoms and illnesses due in part to STESS; yes STRESS; it is a big killer.
Money is just paper created by man we can recreate our society into anything we want. I say it is time for 30 hour work weeks, higher pay and lower prices.
No need to maintain the status quo since that is what is killing us!
We also need more options to work from home. If a company would have 50% of their stafff work from home; that company could save money on utlities and supplies. Think about it that would mean less energy consumption as well It's a win-win situation all around!

But what if we reach a point where A.I. (Artificial Intelligence) is making everything for all of us? (Doing those "jobs"). They are our factory workers, our carpenters, our law enforcement robots, our soldiers, our transporters of goods, and on and on. Many things are automated, and this will not stop, ("God willing and the 'crick' don't rise") Maybe it will reach a point where we have food replicators (No more animal slaughter) (No more meat packing industry) and holodeks?

I get a strong impression, especially here, that many are secretly in love with the idea of going back to the stone age, more or less. Chopping wood for your fireplace and carrying water from the stream. And a man as the 'spiritual leader' and head over everyone (Like Warren Jeffs?) I DON'T WANT TO LIVE LIKE THAT. Maybe a SHTF scenario WILL NEVER take place, and we can advance into the world of Star Trek.

reply to post by Saucerwench


When that level is reached, or just a few steps before, mankind must be quick to discuss and debate the social issues involve with such breakthroughs.

We must think far ahead than to wait till tech overtakes us. Should such happen, it will only doom us all, as the tech of nuke energy almost wiped us out should anyone of the nuke owners decide to push the M.A.D button one day.

If we are wise, when the tech level that you suggested is soon to be achieved, one of the ways will be to ensure that NO Corporations be allowed to own more than 2 or 3 robots. Should the corps do so, they will only keep wealth to themselves, and doom the rest of humanity to unemployment and zero properity.

Thus, instead, each human will be offered 1 or 2 robots, which will do either housework or loaned to corporations to work on fields or mines for resources. This manner, wealth will be shared fairly, not necessarily equally.

Food replicators can only be allowed or made to operate at home, and not in resturants or food outlets, so that the creativity of food enhancements will progress and wealth circulated.

These are just some suggestions, but I am only of one individual mind. Should 2 or more be gathered, I am sure better solutions can be found, to progress and evolve our human race without the need to kill one another, but to leave none behind.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Great ideas there, and they remind me alot of a book I read many years back, called, The Robots Of Dawn by Isaac Asimov.

Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by TheRedneck

 

Things can't just stay the same though! We need POSTIVE change! I have friends who work 50-60 hours a week just to have the basics of life. I worked years a go 65 hours a week and still lived with my parents. I nearly died and the dr told me I had to cut down to 30 hours a week or I may not make to 40.
As a psychology major I realize the importance of good mental health without you are giving yourself a death wish. We manifest within our body symptoms and illnesses due in part to STESS; yes STRESS; it is a big killer.
Money is just paper created by man we can recreate our society into anything we want. I say it is time for 30 hour work weeks, higher pay and lower prices.
No need to maintain the status quo since that is what is killing us!
We also need more options to work from home. If a company would have 50% of their stafff work from home;
that company could save money on utlities and supplies. Think about it that would mean less energy consumption as well It's a win-win situation all around!

edit on 9-10-2011 by dreamseeker because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-10-2011 by dreamseeker because: (no reason given)

I will not make a long comment on this thread. I will just say that your name and title, in your avatar, seem to fit you very well.
Dream on but do so with the understanding that you have got to wake up eventually.
Quad

reply to post by Quadrivium


I actually just created a thread on killer stress. (thank you for the inspiration OP). This not merely a dream but something that can and will happen. One day we will realize the key to good health is to keep a lowered stress level. There is a HUGE connection between work, money and stress. If you don't see it I am shocked because it is obvious. Everyone's stress level is different but a healthy work week is about 30 hours per week; 4 days a week. I heard they do this in europe? I have meet people who love what they do and work only 30 hours a week and they are healthier.
That is another key if you hate your job why would you want to do it for more than 30 hours per week. This is under the assumption that money is no longer a huge factor. We need to make money less important so people can enjoy LIVING; working is not living.(unless you love your job).

aw star strek a communists dream

still had to work
still there was war
still there was disease

and all that free stuff was still made by other people collectivism at its finest.

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by Xeven
Shorten hours to 4 per day? 3 or 4 day work weeks?
Is that where we are headed?

Thats what people were wondering a hundred years ago.

What actually happened was that the got half the people working the same hours, and the other half unemployed.

People were actually selling society on machine labor during the industrial revolution based on that concept. People assumed that if we, as a people, created things that lessened workload and secured food and shelter, then we would have to work very little and nobody would be poor. Same thing happened when we discovered oil. Instead of utilizing mechanized labor or abundant fuel for the good of humanity, a handful of people monopolized it all, inflated the economy and somehow made it necessary to still work a ridiculous amount just to survive.

Here's the truth they don't like to spread: We can do it. We have everything we need to feed the world and power everything in it forever. You can feed countless people on automated indoor farms that take up only an acre. We can power the entire world on hyrdo, wind, and solar (including automobiles). Do people really believe that we haven't had any advancements in agriculture in the last 100 years aside from Monsanto's solutions (to problems they created themselves)? And who would keep the system running? Simple, we are one of the few nations without mandatory civil service. When kids get out of high school, they would work for two years, maintaining the system. People would still work but not because they are threatened with starvation. We are better than that. We can guarantee food, shelter, and clothing to every single person in the world.

We know who's in the way and it's just another case of people waiting for other people to die off so society can move forward again. You are seeing it take place everyday.

reply to post by Cuervo

I wish I could give you 10 stars for that. All these people who are protesting and occupying right now, well most of them, I think, are really trying to bring this blockage of Humanity's next step in evolution, to a close.