Political Parties: The unwanted child of Democracy, page 1
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 3 times
Topic started on 8-10-2011 @ 07:15 PM by Immune
Before i get publicly castrated by the next million posters hear me out. Do not register for any political party!!! EVER!!! Democracy would function so much better if there was no partisan lines. These idiots(i think i give them to much credit) have effectively ruined democracy. Each person we elect into congress or the senate or the white house seem to only do things to support their party period. Very rarely do they vote against their party when truth be told the only party they should ever cater to would be those they are being paid to represent. In my opinion political parties are bull-crap. The people we elect should be heading home and educating the people on what a bill does, its pros and cons and ask how they would like him/her to vote, not just vote for or against because of what party presented the bill and how their party views it. So go to the little box and check "i do not wish to join a party" Never give these parties any support they do not represent the citizens only their own causes. I think its absolute #$%# that since its the republican primaries democrats cannot vote on who they would like to see run against the current president Every American should have a say in who gets to run for president instead its the same crap one republican one democrat and usually one independent (who is wasting his time because they never win because of the party lines) I know plenty of older people who just go to the booth and vote for every republican or every democrat instead of reading up on what each person stands for. Its our own fault we have fallen into the trap of political parties and now there is no way out. Democracy is the greatest form of government ever created except for its one weakness: THE PEOPLE not just the people we elect but the people who vote as well its the American citizens fault we got ourselves into this mess. we are to self absorbed and to lazy (yes i said it) to actually put in the work that democracy demands!! or we can go back to the way of democracy
In ancient Greece they used a form of direct democracy in which no one was elected to represent the people bill were public and every eligible citizen voted (i am not saying only property owners like in them days now every citizen would get a vote)on every law they had in place. In today's high speed world i do not see why we cannot go back to this i say once a month we the American people get a copy of the laws purposed in layman's terms no silly 300 page bill with added fluff simple plain language such as if If we pass this bill it will be illegal for people to steal cars for any purpose or Marijuana will be legal and once every six months we vote on these said bill and if it passes its a law if it fails then its not. Let our voice be heard!! Now i do agree we need a President to deal with Foreign affairs and regulate trade and face the enemies of our country as stated in our constitution but that's all. So i say its about time to get back to the roots of democracy and let the citizens run our lives. I guarantee that things would go a lot smoother if we choose the laws that govern us.

Its time the American people become actively involved in the government we elect or no longer elect them at all and represent ourselves.
edit on 10/8/2011 by Immune because: (no reason given)


reply posted on 8-10-2011 @ 08:25 PM by Cuervo
reply to post by Immune


You said this well, buddy. In reality, America is rather unusual in the sense that only two parties are allowed. Other democracies have several (a few have about 13-15) parties that are viable so it's not so bad. Even today, there are examples of direct democracy. The Swiss are a perfect example of that; they have no parties and very few representatives, just voters.

This is exactly why a even a commie bastard such as myself totally supports the Tea Party and any other party that tries to compete with the whole Bloods and Crips joke we have running our country now. We need to either eliminate the party system completely or we need to have at least six more parties.



reply posted on 8-10-2011 @ 09:10 PM by GeorgiaGirl
Originally posted by Cuervo
Originally posted by tgidkp
100% incorrect.

Thomas Payne argued strongly in favor of what he called "factions". and this became one of the central themes in drafting the constitution.

it is also not true that "only two parties are allowed".

further, I guess I am going to have to be "that Guy" and point out that America does not have a direct democracy. it is a democratic republic.


so, all in all, I would say that this OP has rather handily misunderstood American politics.


Someday people will have to come to terms with the fact that the founding fathers never wanted us to stagnate with their antiquated ideas. People who stick to the letter of their legacy and not the spirit are what keeps us from moving forward.

And, no, more than two parties are not allowed in contemporary politics. If you think that's not true then go ahead and start another one and see how much support you'll get from the media or lobbies who already have a few republicans and democrats in their pockets. Remove the money and maybe you would be correct.

All in all , I would say the OP has a very realistic grasp on American politics. It's you who I think has an unrealistic view of a fair and just democracy. Also, I know this might sting you a bit, but to hell with what they wanted during America's inception! America is whatever Americans want it to be, not what a bunch of dead slavers wanted.


"Not allowed" and "hasn't happened yet" are not the same thing. I actually would LOVE to see more parties. Unfortunately, every time people try to start one, the PEOPLE of the US don't support it.

I despise seeing people like you running down the founding fathers. They were very wise, and when America actually followed the plan they laid out, America boomed. It's recently, when we have strayed from the Constitution, that government has become too central in EVERY facet of our lives. TOO much government is the problem.

One final thing...You many not realize it, but there are a LOT of Americans who want it to be the America laid out in the Constitution. If we go with your thoughts, "America is whatever Americans want it to be", you might be surprised at what Americans REALLY want. America is bigger than you and your circle of Constitution hating friends.


reply posted on 8-10-2011 @ 09:30 PM by Cuervo
Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl

"Not allowed" and "hasn't happened yet" are not the same thing. I actually would LOVE to see more parties. Unfortunately, every time people try to start one, the PEOPLE of the US don't support it.


That's exactly my point. It is not allowed and never will be as long as money and other oligarchical interests control politics.

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl
I despise seeing people like you running down the founding fathers. They were very wise, and when America actually followed the plan they laid out, America boomed. It's recently, when we have strayed from the Constitution, that government has become too central in EVERY facet of our lives. TOO much government is the problem.


I agree. It's when people put the constitution above the populace's demands that I start to doubt some peoples' intentions when they defend the letter and not the spirit of their words. The founders themselves would agree.

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl
One final thing...You many not realize it, but there are a LOT of Americans who want it to be the America laid out in the Constitution. If we go with your thoughts, "America is whatever Americans want it to be", you might be surprised at what Americans REALLY want. America is bigger than you and your circle of Constitution hating friends.


Then that's what it will be! I don't hate the constitution. To the contrary, I love it and one of the things I love the most about it is the fact we can make amendments to it. That's my point. When I say America is whatever Americans want it to be, I'm referring to the constitution reflecting this as well. Again, it's when people place the constitution on a pedestal above "we the people" that I start to get disappointed in people.
edit on 8-10-2011 by Cuervo because: (no reason given)


reply posted on 8-10-2011 @ 10:29 PM by ownbestenemy
reply to post by Immune


The problem isn't parties; it is that people feel obligated to vote to party lines. In the structure of our government and that of the First Amendment, political parties will always be around. It is the detriment and failure of such that people within those parties to vote solely on that party's beliefs rather than their own personal convictions. The same goes from the individual onwards up to the Congress and Senate.


reply posted on 8-10-2011 @ 10:34 PM by negativenihil
George Washington spoke of this in his farewell address:

en.wikipedia.org...

While Washington accepts the fact that it is natural for people to organize and operate within groups like political parties, he also argues that every government has recognized political parties as an enemy and has sought to repress them because of their tendency to seek more power than other groups and take revenge on political opponents.


Washington goes on to acknowledge the fact that parties are sometimes beneficial in promoting liberty in monarchies, but argues that political parties must be restrained in a popularly elected government because of their tendency to distract the government from their duties, create unfounded jealousies among groups and regions, raise false alarms amongst the people, promote riots and insurrection, and provide foreign nations and interests access to the government where they can impose their will upon the country.


Sound familiar?
edit on 8-10-2011 by negativenihil because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 8-10-2011 @ 10:52 PM by ownbestenemy
Originally posted by Cuervo
That's exactly my point. It is not allowed and never will be as long as money and other oligarchical interests control politics.


Not allowed by what decree or statue? Georgiagirl made a good point; the people have not supported it. While the means of establishing a "recognized" party is high and completely ridiculous in my eyes, the idea is not disallowed nor prohibited.

I agree. It's when people put the constitution above the populace's demands that I start to doubt some peoples' intentions when they defend the letter and not the spirit of their words. The founders themselves would agree.


I may come off argumentative but you are speaking from both sides of the mouth here. Georgiagirl is speaking about following the United States of America Constitution and following it, but then you decry that "populace" demand is cast aside in favor of the Constitution is what makes you doubt?!?

The Constitution is not a treatise upon the People but rather that of the administration of Government. Should not the People hold the document that outlines the restrictions and allowances they have bestowed upon Government accountable?


Then that's what it will be! I don't hate the constitution. To the contrary, I love it and one of the things I love the most about it is the fact we can make amendments to it. That's my point. When I say America is whatever Americans want it to be, I'm referring to the constitution reflecting this as well. Again, it's when people place the constitution on a pedestal above "we the people" that I start to get disappointed in people.
edit on 8-10-2011 by Cuervo because: (no reason given)


The Constitution was never to be aimed directly at "we the People". You say you love the fact we can amend the Constitution, but hardly as of late (meaning actual change in governance over the past 50+ years) has a call or attempt been made. Yes, prudent and solid changes have been made but they can be argued that they are unneeded as they give breath to the movement that the Constitution is directed towards the People and not towards the Government.


reply posted on 9-10-2011 @ 04:53 PM by Immune
LOL i love how somethings get blow out of proportion i never said another political party could not be started heck i could start one now the problem is the media is owned by the 2 parties and i would have a snowballs chance in hell at succeeding take the tea party for example every media outlet blatently laughs at it I give them props for sticking to it and there are some key figures and money flowing to the party that can maybe in 30 years give it some ground to stand on. But lets look at other political party canadates that you will never ever see on Television

The white nationalist party supports David duke
www.thedailybeast.com...

The socialist party Stewart alexander
2012.presidential-candidates.org...

The libertarian party roger gary and carl person R lee Rights
2012.presidential-candidates.org...

And of course we cant forget the Black Panthers nominee Obama himself
www.2012electionyear.com...

Here's a good list of all the political parties in the US i know wiki is not a reliable source but its a nice list
en.wikipedia.org...
America First Party
American Nazi Party
American Party
American Populist Party
American Reform Party
American Third Position Party
America's Independent Party
Boston Tea Party
Christian Liberty Party
Citizens Party of the United States
Constitution Party
Communist Party of the United States of America
Democratic Party
Freedom Road Socialist Organization
Freedom Road Socialist Organization
Freedom Socialist Party
Green Party of the United States
Independence Party of America
Independent American Party
Jefferson Republican Party
Labor Party
Libertarian Party
Modern Whig Party
National Socialist Movement
New Union Party*
Objectivist Party
Party for Socialism and Liberation
Peace and Freedom Party
Populist Party of America
Progressive Labor Party
Prohibition Party
Raza Unida Party
Reform Party of the United States of America
Republican Party
Revolutionary Communist Party, USA
Socialist Action
Socialist Alternative
Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Labor Party of America
Socialist Party USA
Socialist Workers Party
U.S. Marxist–Leninist Organization
United States Marijuana Party
United States Pirate Party
Unity Party of America
Workers Party
Workers World Party
Working Families Party
World Socialist Party of the United States
Have you ever seen any of these party's when you register to vote? nope they are not on the form
So we have plenty of parties my reason for posting this is to point out that the parties that are the problem with democracy a lot of posters got that which means i am not alone in this thinking

As for the constitution being followed in today's age i think its GREAT it laid down a great foundation giving us basic rights that should never be infringed on however time change and the constitution can be amended and its the POPULATION who should decide what should be added (i think it should never be subtracted from) not these fools in power who have forgotten they represent US not the Corporations or the bible or our fathers they should never ever be allowed to tell us what to do or when to do it Classified should be an illegal word its our money they are spending and we are not even allowed to see on what. The only people who should be able to tell us what to do should be us the majority the 99% the people who work every day till their fingers bleed just to survive. Not the 1% who make money through our hard labor or shady deals

Now is the winter of our discontent its what we do in these moments that will forever define the course of our future the time is now to either put up or shut up

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." Thomas Jefferson looks like his numbers were just a little off

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to ... remain silent."- Thomas Jefferson

Periodic revolution, “at least once every 20 years,” was “a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.” Thomas Jefferson looks like we are past due



reply posted on 10-10-2011 @ 01:20 PM by GeorgiaGirl
Originally posted by Cuervo
Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl

"Not allowed" and "hasn't happened yet" are not the same thing. I actually would LOVE to see more parties. Unfortunately, every time people try to start one, the PEOPLE of the US don't support it.


That's exactly my point. It is not allowed and never will be as long as money and other oligarchical interests control politics.

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl
I despise seeing people like you running down the founding fathers. They were very wise, and when America actually followed the plan they laid out, America boomed. It's recently, when we have strayed from the Constitution, that government has become too central in EVERY facet of our lives. TOO much government is the problem.


I agree. It's when people put the constitution above the populace's demands that I start to doubt some peoples' intentions when they defend the letter and not the spirit of their words. The founders themselves would agree.

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl
One final thing...You many not realize it, but there are a LOT of Americans who want it to be the America laid out in the Constitution. If we go with your thoughts, "America is whatever Americans want it to be", you might be surprised at what Americans REALLY want. America is bigger than you and your circle of Constitution hating friends.


Then that's what it will be! I don't hate the constitution. To the contrary, I love it and one of the things I love the most about it is the fact we can make amendments to it. That's my point. When I say America is whatever Americans want it to be, I'm referring to the constitution reflecting this as well. Again, it's when people place the constitution on a pedestal above "we the people" that I start to get disappointed in people.
edit on 8-10-2011 by Cuervo because: (no reason given)


I respect your reply. :-)

Thanks for clarifying your stance.
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