Why do christians hate Westboro?

Originally posted by mythos

Originally posted by Revolution9

If you are atall interested my Savior Jesus taught me never to hate anyone.

edit on 8-10-2011 by Revolution9 because: clarification

i have no intent to question your devotion to your faith, and in fact find it inspiring, however, even the New Testament drops the "hate" word in few places.

Luck 14:16 - “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."


of course, we can interpret, and reinterpret this scripture countless ways in an effort to take the edge off the shocking nature of this quote, but the point is, Hate is mentioned in scripture... in the New Testament, no less.

if a Christian commits the whole of their faith to the words of the Bible, then how does a Christian reconcile the more unsettling passages? is it blasphemy for a Christian to accept some scripture, and not others?

that, to me, is the essence of what this thread is about.

Ohhh man, you know what He means when He says that. Go to Israel and see how Jews communicate. Give The Man a context.

What Jesus means here is that all flesh is corrupt. I am corrupt and you and my mum are, too. He is saying put Him first. I do that. I do it naturally. My mum has hurt me many times as I have her. She is a dear and lovely soul, but she is my fleshly and earthly mum. The Father in Heaven is the Creator of everything that is. He is not some white haired old guy. We are dealing with the One who created all that is in this universe and all universes. That is how big He is. He is Eternity itself. All I believe is that Jesus is the Messenger long awaited who came to the earth and told us how to get back in with The Creator. Jesus is the medium between me and my Creator. He is the Way I approach The Father.

It is not blasphemy to sin, it is a sin and it is possible for it to be forgiven. Only Christ was perfect, even Peter and Paul sinned sometimes.

I get so tired of all the misunderstandings because I am being discriminated against because of my Faith. The Faith stays, no matter what the cost. That is what it means to put Jesus first. I put Him before my mother and children because that is His place in my life. I really mean this, too. I didn't have to work and brain wash myself to feel that, either. It was the natural progression of my Faith.

You see, I do not discriminate against gay people. It is their soul and body. I will not hate anyone. I don't even hate Hitler. It is about hating sin, you know hate the sin, but not the sinner.

Jesus hated many things. Hate is a strong word that says clearly how we feel. Hate has a place. Like I hate injustice. It is a word we have in our language.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Countless verses? The Bible is not that big. Yeah, you still need to show me.
"...just as a [sic] much a myth as anything else in the bible" Now we begin to see your real theology.
Nobody created Hell. It does not exist.
I do not pick and choose. My views are consistent with the entire Bible as I understand it.
I see that our discussion is unprofitable. I shake the dust off my sandals in your presense.

(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).

(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).

(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).
Key Passages About Hell

(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).

(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).

(3) Hell is conscious torment.

Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.

Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”


just sayin'

Originally posted by UniverSoul

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by UniverSoul

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by UniverSoul

 

Oh, wow, where are you reading that? Please list a verse or two, or hum a few bars. The Kingdom of Heaven is a fact. Hell is a myth. Here, I'll throw you another crumb: If Hell is real with Satan as it's ruler, does that not make him equal with God? Further, is that not what got Satan into trouble in the first place? Belief in Hell only furthers Satan's ambitions and reinforces his lies. Thus, belief in Hell dishonors God. Get a grip.

hell is just as a much a myth as anything else in the bible
there are countless verses that describe hell as a firey place where people will be physically tortured, if you claim to know the bible you would know this so i shouldnt have to show you

yes it does make him equal with god just at an opposite spectrum.
so you believe satan fought with god but not that he created hell?
you really are the prime example of picking and choosing!

Get a grip?
lol ok i dont even need to answer that

Countless verses? The Bible is not that big. Yeah, you still need to show me.
"...just as a [sic] much a myth as anything else in the bible" Now we begin to see your real theology.
Nobody created Hell. It does not exist.
I do not pick and choose. My views are consistent with the entire Bible as I understand it.
I see that our discussion is unprofitable. I shake the dust off my sandals in your presense.

'as i understand it'
not as god says it

Our understanding is always short of what God knows. Life here is to align ourselves to His Word. Keep looking for a chink you can use.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by UniverSoul

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by UniverSoul

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by UniverSoul

 

Oh, wow, where are you reading that? Please list a verse or two, or hum a few bars. The Kingdom of Heaven is a fact. Hell is a myth. Here, I'll throw you another crumb: If Hell is real with Satan as it's ruler, does that not make him equal with God? Further, is that not what got Satan into trouble in the first place? Belief in Hell only furthers Satan's ambitions and reinforces his lies. Thus, belief in Hell dishonors God. Get a grip.

hell is just as a much a myth as anything else in the bible
there are countless verses that describe hell as a firey place where people will be physically tortured, if you claim to know the bible you would know this so i shouldnt have to show you

yes it does make him equal with god just at an opposite spectrum.
so you believe satan fought with god but not that he created hell?
you really are the prime example of picking and choosing!

Get a grip?
lol ok i dont even need to answer that

Countless verses? The Bible is not that big. Yeah, you still need to show me.
"...just as a [sic] much a myth as anything else in the bible" Now we begin to see your real theology.
Nobody created Hell. It does not exist.
I do not pick and choose. My views are consistent with the entire Bible as I understand it.
I see that our discussion is unprofitable. I shake the dust off my sandals in your presense.

'as i understand it'
not as god says it

Our understanding is always short of what God knows. Life here is to align ourselves to His Word. Keep looking for a chink you can use.

man your ignorance is beyond belief

reply to post by mythos


Good point, I may have misunderstood the point of the OP, none the less I still feel I made a valid point...I just should have addressed it more broadly rather than aiming it at the OP. My apologies OP if you read this.

As for your question about whether it's just as bad to protest a gay soldier than a straight one....I'd agree it is just as bad, though I suppose I was trying to point out that at least protesting a gay soldiers funeral would be logically consistent. Both are acts of hate speech...but I believe few Christians would see value in making innocents suffer simply to get their message across. Simply picketing a funeral of a soldier that had nothing to do whatsoever with the issue at hand, seems doubly hateful to me. While I would be furious at seeing them at gay soldiers funerals it would at least make some sort of sense, since they would not view anyone who is gay as 'innocent'.

So yeah..one is not necessarily better than the other.....but of the two protesting dead soldiers that have nothing to do with issue just seems batsh*t crazy. It's sort of like protesting against Wall-Mart in a Mcdonald's parking lot!

reply to post by UniverSoul


You stated: "man your ignorance is beyond belief"

I think we're done here.

Originally posted by Revolution9


What Jesus means here is that all flesh is corrupt. I am corrupt and you and my mum are, too.

I get so tired of all the misunderstandings because I am being discriminated against because of my Faith. It is about hating sin, you know hate the sin, but not the sinner.

Jesus hated many things. Hate is a strong word that says clearly how we feel. Hate has a place. Like I hate injustice. It is a word we have in our language.

edit on 8-10-2011 by Revolution9 because: spelling

as i said, we can interpret and reinterpret scripture over and over again. in fact, that is what the Abrahamic religions seem rather fond of doing.

so, thanks for the theology lesson (mild sarcasm intended), but i'm sticking to my premise.
how does a Christian reconcile the unsettling passages of the Bible with the more pious ones? especially since the whole book is intended as THE word of God.

PS - you say you are tired of being discriminated against because of your faith... yet your faith sees me as corrupt! who are you to call me corrupt? it is your faith that tells you so.

can you blame me for being a bit defensive?



dis·crim·i·nate/disˈkriməˌnāt/
Verb: Recognize a distinction; differentiate.
Perceive or constitute the difference in or between.

you called me corrupt! talk about throwing the first stone!

reply to post by bhornbuckle75


thanks for the level headed response!!! these religious debates get rather heated!!

cheers.

reply to post by UniverSoul


If you want to bring up old covenant laws to bash Christians you're a tad misguided. Christians operate under the new covenant, the covenant of grace.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


there is no overt bashing here (just some minor skirmishes, as religious threads tend to summon)... so let's not get caught up in hyperbole. the OP has a valid theological question regarding the nature of scripture, and how a devotee of the source of the scripture reconciles the unsettling passages with the righteous passages.

There is a simple answer to this. For any paradox, there is an excluded middle that unifies each side. If a train engineer and his friend sitting on a porch argue about the sound of the train whistle changing, who is correct? Obviously, the Doppler effect holds the answer for both.

In this case, the commands in the OT are for the Hebrew people as the light of the nations. They were to separate themselves from the nations around them. All instructions were for them as the example for the nations. For the Christian, we are equally obligated to live a sanctified (set apart) life in this world. Like Israel, we do a poor job. In fact, we find it impossible to fulfill the law. This was the point of the law. It had two purposes:

1) The law was a guardian for mankind.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

2) The law was there to show that we cannot please God by our actions. Pleasing God is purely through faith in His message of love for others. Faith requires love. God loves us and we must love others, even if they are our enemies. Any Christian who cannot love the homosexual as a human being struggling with sin in this life is not a Christian following in the name (Character) of Christ. Taking the name of the LORD in vain is the same as taking on His character with duplicity. In other words, a Christian that says he is a Christian must be Christ-like. True faith has the fruit of the spirit as a by-product. Love requires this:

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Christians who hate Westboro are not honoring Christ. If they hate the homosexual, they do not honor Christ. Neither do we honor Christ by actions that say one thing but do another. Faith requires that works follow faith to be sanctified from the world, or the faith is dead. LINK These works are not found in hate. They are found in love and forgiveness each day we walk the earth.

Originally posted by UniverSoul

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Homosexuality in the Bible
Murder in the bible
Human sacrifice in the bible
Rape in the Bible
More disgusting quotes from the bible


So if everything Westboro says is commanded in the bible, who do you really hate: Westboro or your own religion?
If christians dont follow these rules why dont they worry about going to hell, you see to worry about doing other things in the bible.

Its testament to the brainwashing power of religions that christians follow their religion with heart and soul but not head.
Im sure many of you will say well we believe in love or that these quotes are irrelivant. But the fact is if you dont follow these things you are not a christian.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by UniverSoul

 

If you want to bring up old covenant laws to bash Christians you're a tad misguided. Christians operate under the new covenant, the covenant of grace.

they are both the word of god.
if you dont follow both your not a true christian and your going to hell

reply to post by UniverSoul


Still the Bible says a lot of crazy stuff (as I illustrated with the verses). There are certainly versus against homosexuals in the bible (though some Biblical Scholars suggest that a few of them are misinterpreted as actually referring to other more specific things, such as male prostitution in pagan temples) Cherry picking verses that you agree with and then ignoring others is what makes Christians seem so hypocritical and hateful. There are also verses that say that slavery is OK, yet you rarely hear Christians talk about those these days (they were quite popular in the early days of America when slavery was prevalent though!)

PS I think I misunderstood you as defending Westoro in my original reply....My apologies!

Originally posted by bhornbuckle75
reply to post by UniverSoul

 

Still the Bible says a lot of crazy stuff (as I illustrated with the verses). There are certainly versus against homosexuals in the bible (though some Biblical Scholars suggest that a few of them are misinterpreted as actually referring to other more specific things, such as male prostitution in pagan temples) Cherry picking verses that you agree with and then ignoring others is what makes Christians seem so hypocritical and hateful. There are also verses that say that slavery is OK, yet you rarely hear Christians talk about those these days (they were quite popular in the early days of America when slavery was prevalent though!)

PS I think I misunderstood you as defending Westoro in my original reply....My apologies!

all true..
im really baffled why christians have such a hard time accepting the facts?
for so long they have told us the bible is fact but when we ask them about the facts..well you know.

i dont support them in any way
but i am defending their freedom of speech and the fact i think its wrong they get slandered so much when theyre only doing correctly what millions of people do half assed and think theyre sitting high on some moral ladder

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Countless verses? The Bible is not that big. Yeah, you still need to show me.

It's not hard to find the verses that talk about Hell:

Matthew 13:50, Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:10, Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15

It would appear to be "countless." That's not all the verses either.

Nobody created Hell. It does not exist.

God prepared Hell for Lucifer and the 1/3. You can't be seriously saying you're a Christian who follows the Bible and not realize this?

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

I do not pick and choose. My views are consistent with the entire Bible as I understand it.

You do pick and choose. It's clear your understanding of the Bible is minimal at best.

Originally posted by UniverSoul

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by UniverSoul

 

If you want to bring up old covenant laws to bash Christians you're a tad misguided. Christians operate under the new covenant, the covenant of grace.

they are both the word of god.
if you dont follow both your not a true christian and your going to hell

Agreed, most Christians don't realize that the New Covenant says nothing about abolishing the Old Covenant laws once the New Covenant came into effect. It's just another form of cherry picking.

When asked for the verification of said abolishment, it's generally followed by ad hominem's and irrelevant bible quotes.

reply to post by novastrike81


thanks for listing those verses
i was sort of counting on christians actually knowing their bible.

all i can say that human mind confuses the s out of me..
things like this are very strong logical proof of how humans are brainwashed.

Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Countless verses? The Bible is not that big. Yeah, you still need to show me.

It's not hard to find the verses that talk about Hell:

Matthew 13:50, Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:10, Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15

It would appear to be "countless." That's not all the verses either.

Nobody created Hell. It does not exist.

God prepared Hell for Lucifer and the 1/3. You can't be seriously saying you're a Christian who follows the Bible and not realize this?

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

I do not pick and choose. My views are consistent with the entire Bible as I understand it.

You do pick and choose. It's clear your understanding of the Bible is minimal at best.

edit on 8-10-2011 by novastrike81 because: (no reason given)

God prepared the Lake of Fire for Satan and his Demons. Only given the previous acceptance of a burning Hell does anyone equate the LOF with "Hell." I still await a complete, theologically sound exposition of an ever-burning Hell. I note that Jesus said the fire was everlasting, but most Christians tack onto it the idea that the lost would suffers in that fire everlastingly. Not necessarily. I do not pick and choose. My views on this begin in Genesis, and end in the Revelation. How in "Hell" do you judge me on this, and say my "...understanding of the Bible is minimal at best."?

Originally posted by mythos

Originally posted by Revolution9


What Jesus means here is that all flesh is corrupt. I am corrupt and you and my mum are, too.

I get so tired of all the misunderstandings because I am being discriminated against because of my Faith. It is about hating sin, you know hate the sin, but not the sinner.

Jesus hated many things. Hate is a strong word that says clearly how we feel. Hate has a place. Like I hate injustice. It is a word we have in our language.

edit on 8-10-2011 by Revolution9 because: spelling

as i said, we can interpret and reinterpret scripture over and over again. in fact, that is what the Abrahamic religions seem rather fond of doing.

so, thanks for the theology lesson (mild sarcasm intended), but i'm sticking to my premise.
how does a Christian reconcile the unsettling passages of the Bible with the more pious ones? especially since the whole book is intended as THE word of God.

PS - you say you are tired of being discriminated against because of your faith... yet your faith sees me as corrupt! who are you to call me corrupt? it is your faith that tells you so.

can you blame me for being a bit defensive?



dis·crim·i·nate/disˈkriməˌnāt/
Verb: Recognize a distinction; differentiate.
Perceive or constitute the difference in or between.

you called me corrupt! talk about throwing the first stone!

You know what I meant. I said all flesh is corrupt. You have a good tactic here for taking things out of context and only giving half of a full sentence. This is a comparison of the material to that which is Spirit. I am not throwing stones. If I called you perfect then I would be lying would I not? Yes, compared to Jesus it is my firm belief that you are corrupted in the flesh as I am, too. Beat me up for it if you wish, whatever. But that is what I think about you and I. I'll say it as many times as I want to.

Yes, The LORD acted accordingly to the actions of sin coming into the world. David killed many people and he even had a soldier placed in battle where the soldier would be killed so David could marry the soldier's wife. The lives of these people in the Bible are examples and beckon deeper study and reflection.

You may also keep saying I am an idiot Christian with flawed logic and thinking if you wish. Actually, you would be right and I would agree with you. Compared to the majesty of Jesus I am indeed an idiot and not worthy to tie even His shoes. That is how I feel about it.

You make the same kind of move as Herod did against John; you don't like something I say and take offense. I am not saying it to offend you. I am describing the whole of humanity with a word. It is the right word. Jesus said that we were all corrupt and sinners. I accept that, you probably don't. That is what humility is about; accepting one's weaknesses, one's mortality, one's moral short comings; getting a realistic perspective.

Now if you were Herod and had the power to do it then you might get me put in prison or something for saying something to you that you did not like. If someone says something to me that I don't like I do of course feel it. I go somewhere private, have a good old moan to myself then forgive them.

See how deep this Christian thing goes. It is not just a dogma and a set of beliefs. It is deeply woven into the last two thousand years of history and the Spirit is in my soul.

Originally posted by UniverSoul

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You make a good point.

In my opinion, Christians don't like Westboro because Westboro picks and chooses certain things from the bible and USES them to persecute gay people and serve their OWN agenda. Of course Christians do this, too, they just pick and choose DIFFERENT things from the bible to justify their intolerance, persecution and judgment of other people, and to serve their own agenda...

The action is the same, they're just using different tools from the same book... and what's funny is that they're both thinking they are on the 'right' side of God. :shk:

edit on 10/8/2011 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)

your right but this doesnt justify the christians case in this argument
from what i can see tho westboro follow all parts of the bible..

Jesus says:Be Passersby

Mr X-ULTRA/MASTER/TRILATERALIST... not UNDERSTANDING how a credit Un-ion is any better than other IMF-FRN's drunk bank wine($) drinkers... So we should pay debt bills with debt bills... Still just another front of the same ORGANization body trying to act like non-sinner saints that took no part in the Greek mortgage & the spend all U want we'll print more party orgia(lesser of two evils is still evil) ... In bible fact... Everything is now religion... And is part of the same spider web... do to U$D "In God We Trust"(all falls under Freemasons bank of laws)... "I" love my $1 bill... Keep the change of the $99 from a $100... And go buy or donate some more debt with it