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99%? Who wants to be a part of the 100%?

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posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 

I agree but you can't just say your against something when your living it.

Now your arguing the merits of collectivism when a couple posts back you were saying nothing good exists in it.




posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Because you want collectivism. I want individualism.

I'm not part of a hive mind. I don't think like you and your left wing/Anarchist/Whatever buddies do. You're either going to have to accept that, or you're simply going to be frustrated by me.


News flash- humans are, by our very nature, collectivists. We evolved to lived in tightly-knit communal tribes with other human beings. In fact, other than our large brains, the thing that allows us to survive/thrive is cooperating with other people.

That being said... collectivism and individualism are NOT necessarily mutually exclusive. A collective is MADE-UP OF individuals. There are MANY collectives which absolutely ALLOW its members to be individuals and work together VOLUNTARILY to individually-agreed-upon goals. What we have in OUR society are TERRIBLE versions of both individualism and collectivism. We have the perverted individualism that is darwinian/Capitalist economics, which atomizes people in the market/workplace against each other, even their own families, in order to achieve "success" and/or wealth. We also have a perverted form of collectivism (and hive-mind as you put it) which we find in state society, nationalism, militarism, political partisanism, and so on. What I advocate is scaling both of these DOWN and turning them right-side-out so that we rely upon localized/tightly-knit communities which listen to individual needs/ideas and allow individual freedom WHILE embracing/providing for the very real human need for belonging/cooperation/social-bonds and the benefits that come with it.

You may enjoy reading about Anarcho-individualism:
infoshop.org...
edit on 9-10-2011 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by projectvxn
 

I agree but you can't just say your against something when your living it.

Now your arguing the merits of collectivism when a couple posts back you were saying nothing good exists in it.


In a military situation everyone has to be on the same page. What about that are you not getting?

Do you want a military to be unorganized, dislodged, and directionless? Do you have any idea what would happen if that were the case?

What happens within a military lifestyle is NOT the same as a society in the whole.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by daskakik
 


It sure is. Team work works.

Collectivism does not work in a society that is supposed to be free.

Soldiers are not free. We follow the orders of the civilian leadership that the people elect. We are there to protect the American people, our allies and our way of life.

Can't do that by doing what we wish to do. Military's must be a cohesive force. Otherwise it's just an unorganized militia, and they can be very dangerous.



So... WHICH IS IT?? Are you collectivist or individualist? Obviously you see merits in a functional collective. So why are you anti-collectivist?? Talk about lack of consistency.

If you are anti-collective, then you'd abandon the military, abandon your family, your friends, and ANY group activity which does with multiple people what cannot be done alone.

But honestly... the military is one of the MOST DANGEROUS collectives ever created (for any country). I find it curious that you're so pro-freedom/individual... yet also militaristic... those things don't go together.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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yeah well everyone pulls their own weight in the military instead up propping up failures unlike the collectivist goals

that run rampant in some poltical ideologies theres no reward for failures.
edit on 9-10-2011 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Wow.

You people just don't get it.

You wouldn't know the difference between real collectivism and what you see in the military apparently. You simply don't understand how different the military is from an overall society.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 


I get it. I said I agree.

I'm not the one saying I want individualism and then signing up to a collective.

It's called doublespeak. Don't blame me.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


I am all about charity. But it is often confused with socialism. Which is NOT charity. It's taking from one who is productive and giving to those who are not.

Socialism portends to guarantee outcomes. Outcomes cannot be guaranteed.

Google search Socialism and Guaranteed outcomes and then get back to me.


Socialism is providing for those in need who cannot pull themselves up within a purist/hierarchical market system. And that's a great thing... Social benefits/safety nets provide welfare in a way that charity NEVER could. While charity is a FANTASTIC creation, it has its place IN CONJUNCTION with social benefits. I mean... would you still join the military if you weren't paid? If you weren't given certain benefits? Would you protest if Republicans took away your military benefits (which they continually try to do, even after you've risked your life "for the country" and they've paraded you around as heroes to gain election votes).

What you need to question is that of PRODUCTION and PRODUCTIVITY. Why do you invest so much support/trust in a blind economic system which awards money on an arbitrary basis?? Do you realize that the majority of the wealthy have NOT earned their wealth through hard work necessarily? Nor necessarily via harder work than a poor American working multiple jobs? How about risk/ingenuity? What about all the people who make honest efforts at starting a business or pioneering an invention and end up FAILING to no fault of their own? The entire market system is a GAME, a GAMBLE, and while that can be all well for unimportant things, it SHOULD NOT be so when it comes to peoples' health, education, lives, well-being, or happiness. That is why there are Socialist solutions (and no it's not Communist) because there are inherent inequalities in a Capitalist system that can only be corrected by redirecting incentives/wealth. Capitalism CANNOT solve inequality, poverty, bribery of politicians, greed and so on.

Check out my post on wealth:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 9-10-2011 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Wow.

You people just don't get it.

You wouldn't know the difference between real collectivism and what you see in the military apparently. You simply don't understand how different the military is from an overall society.


No... I understand. Part of it is real brotherhood, part of it is brainwashing, part of it is black/white necessity, kill or be killed. I understand where you're coming from. But what I don't understand is why you're so anti-collectivist when you are part of one of the most anti-individual collectives ever to exist and IN SUPPORT of one of the most powerful state collectives ever to exist?? I mean...you signed your life over TO THE STATE, and not only that, but you signed over your ability to kill others to the state, you invested full trust in a corrupt/violent collective and now you're speaking to the rest of us about the evils of collectivism?? You're SERIOUSLY railing against collective efforts that actually SAVE lives and provide for general WELFARE of human beings?? The cognitive dissonance is strong within you.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


There are many people in the military who believe just as I do. They want a constitutional government. They want their individual rights protected, and like me, they are willing to protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic.

I suppose that makes me a bad person then.

The military is a personal choice. More than anything else I am all for personal choices.

I chose to sign up. I chose to go through the training. I chose to be an American Soldier. And I am damned proud of it. Why? Because I am doing something for the greater good, instead of trying to impose my idea of the greater good on all of you.
edit on 9-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 


you do know thats a crock of crapola there you are and them fighting for their rights to sit there reap the benefits of yours and their actions and protect their rights for free crap and here you are getting vilified for speaking your mind
something you and they earned.

and too many people in this country hasnt that right there is why i support the military 24-7 365 days a year throught the good the bad and damn right ugly.

your not the bad guy none of you are its clear as day who the bad guys are around here that is some seriously messed up crap.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by neo96
 


No worries. I expect to be vilified by lefties who have no idea what the military does, how it works, and what it is supposed to do as an organization ruled over by the civilian leadership they elect..
edit on 9-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by daskakik
 


There are many people in the military who believe just as I do. They want a constitutional government. They want their individual rights protected, and like me, they are willing to protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic.

I suppose that makes me a bad person then.

The military is a personal choice. More than anything else I am all for personal choices.

I chose to sign up. I chose to go through the training. I chose to be an American Soldier. And I am damned proud of it. Why? Because I am doing something for the greater good, instead of trying to impose my idea of the greater good on all of you.
edit on 9-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)


So... you're sacrificing your freedom for the greater good... yet you don't like collectives which subvert the individual for the greater good? I understand it was your personal choice to join... but still, that doesn't add up.

And you're against trying to impose your idea of the greater good on all of us... yet you joined the military of one of the most powerful/imperialistic nations to exist, arguably an empire (in its own way), and somehow that's not imposing on others? The entire point of a state/military is imposing by coercion and force. I just don't get it man... how can you hold such a position of double-think?



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:22 PM
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reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Double think?

My job is to destroy the enemies of the United States in close combat.

That's what all soldiers do. We're a military. No a feel good lefty institution that hands out candy. We hand out 5.56mm rounds to people who want to kill you.

Collectivism doesn't give you a choice. What about this don't you get? I CHOSE to be in the military and hand out 5.56mm rounds to people who want to kill you. I chose to serve for the greater good. Collectivism doesn't give you that choice. You either do it or you go to jail or get shot. Those are your choices in collectivism.
edit on 9-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)


And no, I don't agree that we have an empire. We don't rule the countries we are in. And if they want us to leave we will. We don't have to be in Japan. We don't have to be in Korea. If the people and thus the governments of those countries tell us to leave we don't have a choice. We must leave.

To date that has not happened in many places.
edit on 9-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by daskakik
 

I suppose that makes me a bad person then.

The military is a personal choice. More than anything else I am all for personal choices.


No one is saying your a bad person or that the military is a bad thing. You said collectivism has no redeeming qualities. You said you chose individualism over collectivism but in reality you didn't.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by NoHierarchy
 


Double think?

My job is to destroy the enemies of the United States in close combat.

That's what all soldiers do. We're a military. No a feel good lefty institution that hands out candy. We hand out 5.56mm rounds to people who want to kill you.

Collectivism doesn't give you a choice. What about this don't you get? I CHOSE to be in the military and hand out 5.56mm rounds to people who want to kill you. I chose to serve for the greater good. Collectivism doesn't give you that choice. You either do it or you go to jail or get shot. Those are your choices in collectivism.
edit on 9-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)


You keep wanting to seperate the two but you can't handing out candy or lead it's still collectivism. Signing up may have been a personal choice but what they will have you do from that point on isn't.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by daskakik
 

I suppose that makes me a bad person then.

The military is a personal choice. More than anything else I am all for personal choices.


No one is saying your a bad person or that the military is a bad thing. You said collectivism has no redeeming qualities. You said you chose individualism over collectivism but in reality you didn't.


YOU do NOT understand the difference between serving the country and imposing collectivism on a country.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


I'm not separating the two.

The fact is you do not get the difference between being in a cohesive military force and imposing collectivist ideology on a population.



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 


Sure I do but I wasn't the one throwing around blanket statements a couple pages back.

You say you and many peers agree that you would like to get back to a constitutionalist government, right?

What if I don't want that? What if I am happy with big government, for whatever reason. Would you force me to accept a smaller government for my own good?



posted on Oct, 9 2011 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


Big governments eventually topple themselves.

If you want a big government that spend more than it takes in then you get what you deserve in the end. You do not have the right to topple a Constitutional government.

My job and oath is to protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic.
edit on 9-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)



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