Why men are in trouble

Men, 'real' men, are alive and well.

I do not personally think that a lowering of Church attendance is some signal of our downfall, but, perhaps, a sloughing off of irrelevancy.

While it may have some significance to those who are looking for proof of civilization's demise, it has little significance to men.

We do what needs to be done, without all the bells and whistles of praise and glory.

True, our stereotypical role is dying out, but that does not affect our integrity, determination, or willingness to shoulder responsibility, both our own and others.

(99% of all statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to.)

Originally posted by sacgamer25


The age old male and female stereotypes? Which ones would those be?

Women menstruate, give birth, breast feed, have a stronger bond with the children and have the patience to help them mature. Are these the stereotypes?

Men are stronger, more suited for physical labor, see things as black and white because many work choices need to be made without deliberation. Are these the sterotypes?

All of these things are natural not stereotypes. Just because industrialization has moved much of the work from blue collar to white collar does not mean that the basic functions that we were born to do should be changed. These changes have lead to the degradation of marriage, family, and raising children. Now that we perceive are roles as undefined we no longer know how to make anything work.

Until men start giving birth to children and women become the physically dominate gender than we should not be changing what we were naturally born to do. Why are women so intent on proving that they don’t need men? We are created to need each other it’s the natural way.

This is interesting because I don't see many men doing what they were naturally created to do. I don't see hardly any men out doing hard physical labor that their bodies were created for. Sure lots of women don't want to be in that 1950s housewife role anymore, but this isn't just a woman bashing thing here. Most men don't do squat compared to their 1950s male counterparts either. Neither gender is what they used to be and this isn't just women suddenly jumping the track saying no more, this is both genders changing in many ways. My hubby is a computer nerd and does not do hard physical labor. Should I be upset that I did my part..I gave birth, breastfed, stayed at home, raised kids, cleaned the house, ect.. and he isn't out doing something physical because that is what his body was made for? Don't paint men as some paragon of virtue done wrong by the evil liberated women of the world. Not only is that incorrect, it is ignorance! For what it is worth, I could do what my hubby does.. he could not do what I did and do as he isn't equipped. So really it is my hubby who isn't doing what his body was made for.. so much for nature.

You really contradict yourself though because by going from blue collar to white collar men are suddenly not doing what they are naturally created to do so yes it does change the nature of things. So are you saying only women should stay in their natural role, but it's ok for men to not fill their natural role?

IMO it's because american society demonize masculinity. Look at commercials or TV shows there is always a dumb male. I find this to be the opposite in real life with women rarely knowing anything. Now if they have the weaker of the two lead and the stronger passified we have a much weaker society. This means its easy to control. I think this also explains why women like criminals, they are less plugged into society and still living as a man... Not that you have to be a criminal to that.

LOL I'll skip it then! I don't really blame anyone for not having interest in chasing the opposite sex to be honest. If I were even 10 years younger there is no way in hell I'd chase some guy around, what a waste of my time. I can provide money for myself so there isn't that strong incentive to be taken are of by a man, which means less need to go search out a serious mate. Where guys used to just follow their need to procreate I bet you will find more women doing the same now. Simply because they can do it for the fun of it and not because they have to find someone to take care of them. Sounds harsh, but it is reality. Men have always been promiscuous, but now they don't like it when women do it?? pot or kettle? LMAO

So yeah, if you don't have money I can see how it might be discouraging to even want to go chasing after a possible mate, but motivations are changing so I'd think that the chase part would change too. Instead of chasing after a woman, why not just try to get to know someone for who they are because you are not needed in the same way that a man would have been needed even just 20 years ago. kwim Vern?

PS.. I stuck with my boyfriend (now hubby) when he had nothing and I have done it most of my adult life. We are not rich by any means, but I stick by him even when he isn't doing well. Not because I'm looking to get something out of him, but because he is and always was my friend first and I am a loyal friend. Don't discount friendship before relationship, it will last longer.

Originally posted by MasterGemini
Don't bother watching the video

its just a guy melodically reciting trololololol

I don't sit around playing video games, but as a man who has zero interest in chasing after today's woman (no, not gay) I wouldn't be so quick to accuse men of becoming things.

Women are now more promiscuous then ever, myself and most of my peers have been cheated on FAR FAR MORE by women than fellas cheating on the women.

The economy also must be taken into account, young men have been the hardest hit group of any.
I have NEVER seen a women suck it up and stay with a guy even though times are hard, and many of us having seen that truth would rather not waste our time.

So without jobs how are we supposed to chase women? No money take them out, when was the last time a woman asked a man on a date and asked to pay?

Talk to them? LoL better get your iphone and facebook ready.

(paid for by mommy and daddy)

edit on 8-10-2011 by MasterGemini because: (no reason given)

Men are far from in trouble, it is women that are in trouble and it is largely self inflicted. Sure more women are becoming educated and entering the workforce, but at what cost? A bank owned degree and few job prospects. And by the time you pay off that degree and get settled in your career you are well into your 30\'s. Then this little thing called your biological clock is ticking away, you can deny it exist, but a woman\'s engrained biological desire to become a mother is very real and very strong. Yet a woman\'s prime years, as far as attractiveness goes, have been spent getting a degree and working to pay off that degree, by that time women are finding themselves lonely and far from empowered. We are reaching a peak of a generation of bitter, lonely women who are realizing that \"liberation\" is not all its cracked up to be. I foresee future generations of women learning from the mistakes of their mothers and choosing to be mothers and not corporate slaves. Sure there will still be women who persue a false liberation, but that number will dwindle and an ultimate equilibrium will be reached in this new paradigm of society. When and to what degree that will be i\'m not sure, but i would speculate that it would begin not in my children\'s generation, but that of my grandchildren\'s.
I would like to see statistical data on the role women have played on the debt burden of society, i.e. the increasing number of women with student loans, on unemployment, single women with mortgages, car loans, credit card debt. I bet that number would be staggering and shocking, probably approximately $700bn, hmmm.

Originally posted by MaMaa
My hubby is a computer nerd and does not do hard physical labor. Should I be upset that I did my part..I gave birth, breastfed, stayed at home, raised kids, cleaned the house, ect.. and he isn't out doing something physical because that is what his body was made for? Don't paint men as some paragon of virtue done wrong by the evil liberated women of the world. Not only is that incorrect, it is ignorance! For what it is worth, I could do what my hubby does.. he could not do what I did and do as he isn't equipped. So really it is my hubby who isn't doing what his body was made for.. so much for nature.

You really make my point even though you refuse to see it. Yes a woman can do what men do because of industrialization but a man cannot do what a woman can do. This is my point we are different and a change in society does not mean these roles should be changed. Except for a few women who feel liberated because they don’t need a man everyone else is suffering. I am all for the ethical treatment of all but women and men are naturally different to do naturally different roles.

Just because you can do something does not make it good or beneficial. Going against a natural role to achieve a higher status and more material possessions is not what we should be teaching our children. We are raising children who do and will continue to worship money and self over the moral obligations of family.

Originally posted by dex77
IMO it's because american society demonize masculinity. Look at commercials or TV shows there is always a dumb male. I find this to be the opposite in real life with women rarely knowing anything. Now if they have the weaker of the two lead and the stronger passified we have a much weaker society. This means its easy to control. I think this also explains why women like criminals, they are less plugged into society and still living as a man... Not that you have to be a criminal to that.

Common seriously, you don't think that society did the same thing to women up until now? The dumb women who couldn't change a tire, the helpless woman in a movie who needed a man to come save her, it was everywhere in our society. Women were portrayed as weak, stupid, helpless creatures who just waited around for a big strong man to come save her from her own stupidity. Women for ages were easy for men to control and now that they are not, men are freaking out a bit.

No body likes to be controlled, not men, not women.. none of us. I don't want to be controlled by a man anymore than I know men want to be controlled by women. I'll be damned if I ever let another human, much less a man, control me. I grew up seeing women being treated as if they were beneath men, as if they were ignorant fools who thank god had a man to tell them how to live their life. That is wrong and destructive and I won't allow it.

And even with that said I also believe that two rights don't make a wrong. Just because the men of the past treated women with disrespect and treated them as if they were less than men simply because they were a woman doesn't mean that women should treat men that way now.

Originally posted by dickrichards
I would like to see statistical data on the role women have played on the debt burden of society, i.e. the increasing number of women with student loans, on unemployment, single women with mortgages, car loans, credit card debt. I bet that number would be staggering and shocking, probably approximately $700bn, hmmm.

Sorry I couldn't find much in the way of primary source data, however I did come across a few articles.

Men vs Women financial literacy
getliquid.com...

The study by Financial Finesse clearly shows that women lag behind men in financial knowledge. Due to this, women lack the confidence in their finances as well as their ability to meet their long-term income goals. The report said that women lag men in their knowledge "in virtually all areas of finance."

Swedish women matching men for debt
www.icenews.is...

Seeking Arrangement: College Students Using 'Sugar Daddies' To Pay Off Loan Debt
www.huffingtonpost.com...

Saddled with piles of student debt and a job-scarce, lackluster economy, current college students and recent graduates are selling themselves to pursue a diploma or pay down their loans. An increasing number, according to the owners of websites that broker such hook-ups, have taken to the web in search of online suitors or wealthy benefactors who, in exchange for sex, companionship, or both, might help with the bills.

The past few years have taken an especially brutal toll on the plans and expectations of 20-somethings. As unemployment rates tick steadily higher, starting salaries have plummeted. Meanwhile, according to Jeffrey Jensen Arnett, a professor of psychology at Clark University, about 85 percent of the class of 2011 will likely move back in with their parents during some period of their post-college years, compared with 40 percent a decade ago.

Besides moving back home, many 20-somethings are beginning their adult lives shouldering substantial amounts of student loan debt. According to Mark Kantrowitz, who publishes the financial aid websites Fastweb.com and Finaid.org, while the average 2011 graduate finished school with about $27,200 in debt, many are straining to pay off significantly greater loans.

Enter the sugar daddy, sugar baby phenomenon. This particular dynamic preceded the economic meltdown, of course. Rich guys well past their prime have been plunking down money for thousands of years in search of a tryst or something more with women half their age -- and women, willingly or not, have made themselves available. With the whole process going digital, women passing through a system of higher education that fosters indebtedness are using the anonymity of the web to sell their wares and pay down their college loans.

More women than men seek help with personal debt, credit counselors find
articles.orlandosentinel.com...

Young women suffer from greater debt
www.creditcards.com...

Enjoy

Originally posted by MaMaa

Originally posted by Revolution9

Originally posted by MaMaa
Is it just me or does anyone else notice peoples need to blame an outside source for things not being what they think they ought to be? At any point is there ever personal responsibility for our actions and where we end up in life or do people really just sit around pointing fingers and blaming others at why their life isn't the best it could be?

It is called projection. All that one dislikes and fears is projected like a screen onto another individual or group who become the object of hate and fears. Then they are made a scapegoat. Happens all the time in this wonderful world of cruelty.

I don't actually blame anyone for anything. It is better that way. We are all victims of circumstance. Better to approach the whole thing with forgiveness, patience and tolerance.

Agreed, well except for the victims of circumstance bit. I believe that we are all responsible for ourselves and how we turn out, regardless of gender.

Just to clarify I meant victims of circumstance as in the social nature of the world and society we are born into. Clumsily stated, I agree.

I just read what you wrote about you and your husband and the "friendship" you write of. I think women like you have the best kind of attitude. You are with your guy for who he is and not what he has. That is all I ever wanted, a "friend". It has eluded me to date, but I always keep my optimism.

Your husband is lucky to have a decent Lady like you and I guess you are lucky to have found a guy who is your "friend". Long may it last for you both.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
You really make my point even though you refuse to see it. Yes a woman can do what men do because of industrialization but a man cannot do what a woman can do. This is my point we are different and a change in society does not mean these roles should be changed. Except for a few women who feel liberated because they don’t need a man everyone else is suffering. I am all for the ethical treatment of all but women and men are naturally different to do naturally different roles.

Just because you can do something does not make it good or beneficial. Going against a natural role to achieve a higher status and more material possessions is not what we should be teaching our children. We are raising children who do and will continue to worship money and self over the moral obligations of family.

I promise you I am open to different lines of thinking, I have not closed my mind or refused to see anything. Yes things have changed, but my point is that the roles do change. Now .. men their role was one of a physical nature yes? So now their role has changed and they are not fullfilling anything physical correct? I'll use my husband as an example. He is 6'1" and strong! He is physically made for something other than computer work, there for his role has changed from what he was created for.

If the roles should not change, then how is it that men are still in their intended roles? what exactly is the intended male role? I don't see many of them providing very well and a lot of them don't do anything physical as their bodies were made to do.. so where is the male role and why should it not change?

Originally posted by MaMaa

Originally posted by dex77
IMO it's because american society demonize masculinity. Look at commercials or TV shows there is always a dumb male. I find this to be the opposite in real life with women rarely knowing anything. Now if they have the weaker of the two lead and the stronger passified we have a much weaker society. This means its easy to control. I think this also explains why women like criminals, they are less plugged into society and still living as a man... Not that you have to be a criminal to that.

Common seriously, you don't think that society did the same thing to women up until now? The dumb women who couldn't change a tire, the helpless woman in a movie who needed a man to come save her, it was everywhere in our society. Women were portrayed as weak, stupid, helpless creatures who just waited around for a big strong man to come save her from her own stupidity. Women for ages were easy for men to control and now that they are not, men are freaking out a bit.

No body likes to be controlled, not men, not women.. none of us. I don't want to be controlled by a man anymore than I know men want to be controlled by women. I'll be damned if I ever let another human, much less a man, control me. I grew up seeing women being treated as if they were beneath men, as if they were ignorant fools who thank god had a man to tell them how to live their life. That is wrong and destructive and I won't allow it.

And even with that said I also believe that two rights don't make a wrong. Just because the men of the past treated women with disrespect and treated them as if they were less than men simply because they were a woman doesn't mean that women should treat men that way now.

Yep. I can do business with that kind of thinking. I take my hat off to you in a very old fashioned gentlemanly way. From such common sense a future can be made.

As an added observation;

If Man did not "stay" in charge, then the very tools, clothing, and other such materialistic items, would "never" have come into existence..

I have seen grown men cry over the loss of some bimbo, calling it a "loss of the one I love" and doing everything they can to try and get back in the bimbos graces, when you look at the one your friend is talking about, she has had no moral, problem (as in no morals at all) finding another to replace him, in fact women are like monkeys, they never let go of one branch without having hold of another..

I have personally had women try to "hold back" their "garden valley" from me, in order to get me to do what they want, they use sex as a weapon, as a tool, and have no problem giving it out, if they are about to lose their home or livelihood, in times of crises (based on history no less) it has been shown, that women use sexual favors as a survival tool, they will immediately "put out" when its in their best interest, but when they believe they are holding enough cards, they then switch to "manipulation", to materialistic tactics, to increase their positions of material standing, their positions of "perceived" positions in a community (just look to O'Butt'Ma's skank of a wife to see what perceived power and material wealth does to them)

Women as an equal, is just asking for it in the worst way..

I go out on dates, do the "nasty" then drop them like so much TP.. if you let them get their hooks in you, they will spit out a child just to keep you shackled to them for "monetary" purposes, until they drain you dry in the bank, broken you by adding more years to your frame then you physically are by draining your physical and emotional life force, then they will seek out another to leech off of..

If their ever was a case of real life vampirism, "Women" fit that bill, no such thing as a "good women", they all have the same fatal flaws from "birth"..

Originally posted by Revolution9
Just to clarify I meant victims of circumstance as in the social nature of the world and society we are born into. Clumsily stated, I agree.

I just read what you wrote about you and your husband and the "friendship" you write of. I think women like you have the best kind of attitude. You are with your guy for who he is and not what he has. That is all I ever wanted, a "friend". It has eluded me to date, but I always keep my optimism.

Your husband is lucky to have a decent Lady like you and I guess you are lucky to have found a guy who is your "friend". Long may it last for you both.

edit on 8-10-2011 by Revolution9 because: spelling

edit on 8-10-2011 by Revolution9 because: spelling again, grrr!

ah ok, I see what you mean then.

Thank you by the way, I appreciate the flattery. We do our best to teach our boys (I have four. oye).. the same values. I'm of the belief that EVERYONE needs someone in their corner through life. Someone they can always count on to be their friend through thick and thin. I don't need my hubby, but I am rather partial to him. He is my best friend, I know I can trust him to not hurt me and to always be at my side. Too often it becomes a men vs. women thing, when really don't we all just want someone to love us, to be our friends and to be on our side through life? If we accept personal responsibility for where we are in life instead of trying to blame it on someone else then we are not lashing out at others.

Thing is women think horrible things about guys just the same as guys think horrible things about women, but I doubt most of it is accurate. If someone feels that you are their friend and that you are not out to try to take from them something or to get something out of you then they will open their hearts and not worry so much about being hurt. Then you can really get to know a person for who they are. But the women I know don't trust men because we are raised to believe they are being nice to you because they want sex. Which now that I have four boys.. and hubby.. well I see there is probably a bit of truth to that. Some women are willing to look beyond that and still be friends enough to where they can love a guy for who he is despite his original interest in a girl for mostly sexual reasons . It makes it hard to trust and not worry about being hurt if you think that someone is going after you because they want something from you though.

In todays world, I would never never get married. I would maybe have a little fling on the side just for fun, but ohh my gosh, the work involved in a relationship is quite difficult. Now I have been with hubby for 21 years now so I have a lot of time invested and it has by far been the hardest thing I have ever done in my entire life. Mom always used to say the two hardest things you will ever do is be married and have children. LOL She was right!

For what it is worth as far as gender roles go.. I'm the disciplinarian around here! I have five males in this house, I have to be a little bit tough to make sure they remember who's boss! LOL Red headed Irish descent from a Texan family... if you knew me, you would see I fit the stereotype! No one messes with mom, but at the same time I'm fiercely protective.. no one messes with my boys! LMAO I'm not your typical soft squishy hormonal woman that men find so confusing. Which.. why wouldn't they.. it's just not stable is it! My hubby.. mr. german decedent is the softie... go figure. I have to be more than what the gender role says I'm supposed to be, that's just the nature of things. If I want to stay up with the rest of the world, I have to be better than just the normal 'woman'. Staying in that old 1950s womens role isn't reasonable or feasible in today's society.

Originally posted by Revolution9
Yep. I can do business with that kind of thinking. I take my hat off to you in a very old fashioned gentlemanly way. From such common sense a future can be made.

Thank you Sir, your kindness is much appreciated!

Stumbled upon this picture and thought it really deserves to be in this thread.

reply to jamesackerson

Things would have come into existence as necessary, women would have at some point done just as men had. yes the world would not be what it is today and it seems sad to think credit isn't going to the men who have created so much and come so far. That is not what this is about, not taking away from what positive men have contributed over the eons. The world would be a sad sad place if it were not for both men and women, this isn't about one being better or more worthwhile than the other.

I have seen grown women cry over idiot men just as you have seen grown men cry over idiot women, it is a far cry from the standard normal thank god!

As far as holding back their 'garden valley' as you put it.. well that's simply because women don't need or want it the same as men. Men will go after women because they want to get lucky, not because they like the woman.. they like what they will get from her. Women have learned to not just be used and abused over years and years of men only wanting one thing from them. Is it any better for a man to use a woman to 'get some' than it is for a woman to use 'it' as a tool? NO, it's both wrong, hurtful and destructive in so so many ways. Simple truth is that men want 'it' more than women generally speaking. So men use women for their reasons and women use men for their own reasons as well. Neither one is better or any worse than the other.

Men have just as many fatal flaws at birth as you say! I have four boys and I can see how manipulative they can be to get what they want, just the same as I see it in girls. They just go about it a little differently, but that hardly means there are no good men out there. It means that we each have our own needs, but have to learn that the world is a give and take. If you see past all the selfishness that we all harbor inside, you can see a good person in just about most people.

I'm sure your probably a nice guy inside and that you care about people, do kind things for others, ect.. just as I am sure that I am a good woman. We all have our fatal flaws, some are worse than others admittedly, but it is never as black and white as I see you painting it.

This whole issue can simply be solved if these working women were to accept that they're future husband will be the one doing the house work and looking after the kids, while she goes to work and earns all the income.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by Partygirl

 

I think thats a fair assumption of whats going on out there overall in most Western societies. You'll also find it's mostly the mothers that turn up at their children's sports clubs and are more involved than fathers.

Males in today's society need to MAN up and get back to basics.

What? By that logic Women should WOMAN up and get back to basics and go back to the kitchen and make me a sandwich. Does that sound sexist? So does your comment.

The OP's post and commentary are just typical feminazi propaganda anyways.

The whole "woman's movement" idea was for equality, and as the OP very clearly shows us, that is not what is happening. Equality? Looks like the OP is pushing Feminist domination, correct? But isn't that what Feminists were really after now anyways, because it looks like that is what they got.

So what is the OP's post about anyways? Is it to brag, or to complain? To stir up controversy?

Tell me OP? What is the point of this thread? To try and humiliate Men? How many threads do you see proclaiming Men's dominance over women? NONE.

Am I offended by your post? Not at all. I'm glad feminists are so naive to blatantly reveal to everyone but themselves that true equality is impossible. Ambition is endless when pursued by people without self control, and I think it demonstrates a notable lack of self-control to openly boast and stir up controversy like this.

Can you quietly sit there and enjoy that Women are in a good place in society now? Apparently not, because in your mind you probably still think they still are not dominant enough. And that's exactly the point. Equality is an impossibility.

When the average Feminist come to their senses, they will realize it was by Nature's Design, not our individual own, that Men were put in place of dominant sex on purpose. Domination is only a side-effect of Men being the more imposing sex, something Women don't seem to realize or understand.

Originally posted by hotbread
This whole issue can simply be solved if these working women were to accept that they're future husband will be the one doing the house work and looking after the kids, while she goes to work and earns all the income.

As well as men would have to accept filling that role and being happy in it. It just isn't all that likely because so few men value that position of doing house work and looking after kids, they would not be happy in it I don't think. Which is a shame because I think kids would be more well rounded adults if they had more connection to their dads! Not instruction and ordering, but true connection with their father as a person. The world would be a better place for it because men have a lot to offer as far as raising kids is concerned! My hubby thinks in ways that I don't and I see it benefits my kids just as I think in ways he does not and it benefits our kids. Put it together and we both have a lot to offer our kids so they become good people in this world!

Originally posted by MaMaa

reply to jamesackerson

Things would have come into existence as necessary, women would have at some point done just as men had. yes the world would not be what it is today and it seems sad to think credit isn't going to the men who have created so much and come so far. That is not what this is about, not taking away from what positive men have contributed over the eons. The world would be a sad sad place if it were not for both men and women, this isn't about one being better or more worthwhile than the other.

I have seen grown women cry over idiot men just as you have seen grown men cry over idiot women, it is a far cry from the standard normal thank god!

As far as holding back their 'garden valley' as you put it.. well that's simply because women don't need or want it the same as men. Men will go after women because they want to get lucky, not because they like the woman.. they like what they will get from her. Women have learned to not just be used and abused over years and years of men only wanting one thing from them. Is it any better for a man to use a woman to 'get some' than it is for a woman to use 'it' as a tool? NO, it's both wrong, hurtful and destructive in so so many ways. Simple truth is that men want 'it' more than women generally speaking. So men use women for their reasons and women use men for their own reasons as well. Neither one is better or any worse than the other.

Men have just as many fatal flaws at birth as you say! I have four boys and I can see how manipulative they can be to get what they want, just the same as I see it in girls. They just go about it a little differently, but that hardly means there are no good men out there. It means that we each have our own needs, but have to learn that the world is a give and take. If you see past all the selfishness that we all harbor inside, you can see a good person in just about most people.

I'm sure your probably a nice guy inside and that you care about people, do kind things for others, ect.. just as I am sure that I am a good woman. We all have our fatal flaws, some are worse than others admittedly, but it is never as black and white as I see you painting it.

It is always black and white, it's just a persons "opinion" and "ASSumption's" that make it gray.. reality states otherwise, and as far as what I am, who I am, where I go, what I do, or anything about me, your shooting blanks into a dark room..

Women are ruled by emotions, men are rules by "common sense", hence neither parties are logically "capable" of being near each other in any amount of time (beyond what each one wants from each other at that moment) to state otherwise, is to "fool yourself" into believing differently, when the "reality" states otherwise..

No such thing as a "good person", only an individual that has yet to be on the receiving end of the hard, cold truth of "reality"...