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The U.S. approved to grant 400 M1A1 Abrams to... Greece!

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posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by AGWskeptic

Originally posted by cerebralassassins

Originally posted by Convicted
reply to post by Jordan River
 


Warthogs and the tank killing helicopter thingys.

Tanks are just sitting ducks waiting to get the hell blown out of them from air power.

Basically, they are just a nice fat target for a laser guided weapon.
edit on 7-10-2011 by Convicted because: (no reason given)


That is obviously if no air defence is present, otherwise those low flying and so called low emiting radar signatures of helo's are just as much a sitting target as a tank would be.


It's a moot point because we are the only ones with the airpower.

In an all out war we could destroy the bulk of any countries air force in a matter of days, even Russia and China.


That answer has many exit points for it to be made clear. As losses and accepted losses and over what period of time is the internal structure of nation able to handle is what black budgets do and think tanks provide as possible scenarios.




posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 02:39 PM
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Simply being staged there for use in the region. After all it took months and months for the equipment to be staged for the 1st Gulf war.

When you are on the receiving end of a tank blast it doesn't matter if it is old tech or new tech.
edit on 7-10-2011 by NorthStreet1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by Maxatoria
so the greeks get to pay $8 million dollars for some end of the line tanks that the USA doesnt want and can probably now start charging for spares and repairs at a very healthy profit for the manufacturers, looks like a winner for the USA in my books

and who the hell these days uses tanks? they can be blown up by some helicopter beyond the line of sight making them an expensive bullseye


When I was at school 3100000×400=1240000000 and not 8 million.

Also M1 Abrams are one the best Main BattleTanks in the world, only beaten by the British Challenger 2.



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 03:36 PM
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Remember that the Rothschilds and their banking cartel have long since provided loans to govts especially for military equipment.

This is how they have made the majority of the money.

That's the entire point of financing your own diplomacy and their subsequent wars.

And if they default on the loans as Egypt did after WWI then the Rothschilds simply take the land away which is how Israel was attained under the Balfour Treaty.

The Rothschilds provide tanks to the Greeks on the Turk's Northern border to put pressure on Turkey.

Plain and Simple.

PEACE.



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 04:26 PM
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allah, allah...is great!..ww3 on the way or they bought this tanks to make a hold up into the Bank of Europa to pay their credit...loool!!



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 05:47 PM
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woah woah woah,what are these guys doing, hopefully the tax payer money doesnt pay for this,its time teh money stays in the country shows how ignorant ppl are in high power



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by Arken


What a wonderful idea! Sell 400 Tanks to a country that have no money to pay its debts! A Country on bankrupt. A Country that have not money to pay pensions and wages to its citizens.
A huge financial crisis on the verge and greece indebt itself for billions euros for 400 Tanks!

Why this? It is a blackmail?

Something wrong in this mad world.
Something very very bad at the horizon.....

www.defencegreece.com
(visit the link for the full news article)


They can sell the abrams tanks to...Syria! I'm sure the Syrians are going to need all the help they can get once NATO invades. They need help burning down all of the middle east starting with Israel.



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by sabalsis1972
allah, allah...is great!..ww3 on the way or they bought this tanks to make a hold up into the Bank of Europa to pay their credit...loool!!


Now you see why Jesus Christ is the messiah and not Muhammad? Muhammad's followers are too eager to break the 6th commandment.

As for the OP, this is a bad idea. Turkey may be in NATO but they are also Islamic and alot of the officials are part of the muslim brotherhood. Israel may be the only thing standing between Greece and becoming an occupided muslim territory. Yahweh didn't let them down in the 6 day war, lets pray he's with them still.



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by popsmayhem

Originally posted by camouflaged
once a country is in debt to another country, the country becomes owned by the loaner's even after the debt is "paid off" america is selling them tanks because they have better ones... old stock


There selling them tanks for when SHTF in greece.

Its going to hit soon..


I thought the same thing. Why would a country that is daily fending off total unrest, with no money whatsoever, on the verge of collapse, need 400 tanks? There's only one answer: to use them.


Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Now you see why Jesus Christ is the messiah and not Muhammad? Muhammad's followers are too eager to break the 6th commandment.


Pot, I'd like you to meet my good friend Kettle.

All the most popular brainwashing cults have been responsible for untold millions of innocent people's deaths. Yours included.
edit on 10/7/2011 by DieBravely because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by DieBravely

Originally posted by popsmayhem

Originally posted by camouflaged
once a country is in debt to another country, the country becomes owned by the loaner's even after the debt is "paid off" america is selling them tanks because they have better ones... old stock


There selling them tanks for when SHTF in greece.

Its going to hit soon..


I thought the same thing. Why would a country that is daily fending off total unrest, with no money whatsoever, on the verge of collapse, need 400 tanks? There's only one answer: to use them.


You better believe it. With Tukey pulling the bullsh*t it has lately with this oil fiasco in Cyprus and encroaching on Israeli national waters with warships something is going to go down soon, because men have tempers, and tempers will flare and we all know men do irrational things when they are angry they may later regret.



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 07:11 PM
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Even if Greece wanted tanks, I'm not sure why they'd want the Abrams. Sure they're awesome in many ways and among the top of the list in firepower and survivability. But their Achilles heel is that they're on a fairly short leash from that fuel truck. Being big and heavy combined with a thirsty gas turbine engine makes one wonder just how much use it can see in actual practice without the resources of a large nation behind it. Something with diesel power seems more practical for a small country.

Even in the second Gulf War the weakness of the Abrams showed because the tanks outran and then had to wait for that supply line. In some ways it must have been lucky for the tankers that one dust storm occurred when it did. Not that the tanks were under much threat from the air, but rather it provided visual cover and kept the Iraqi side from doing much when the tanks were under a period of limited mobility.

Somehow I think this is being done to keep Turkey in line with what the rest of NATO wants when dealing with Israel. It's obviously saying "Hey! Don't stir the pot any more than it is." I don't see how else those tanks would be kept in fuel by Greece alone and tanks are overkill for dealing with any internal conflict. Doesn't seem like they'd be good for much else.



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by DieBravely
 





All the most popular brainwashing cults have been responsible for untold millions of innocent people's deaths. Yours included.


Cults yes. Christendom yes, but not christianity. True believers in Christ want to save lives and souls and bring peace. True believers in Islam want to kill people that do not believe what they do no matter what religion they have or if they are atheists. They hate atheists worse than christians. I'm not excusing what christendom has done in the crusades or the spanish inquisition (which targeted my protestant brothers i might add). I'm just telling you the difference between a true christian and follower of Christ's teachings and true followers of Muhammad and his teachings of "convert or kill".

Jewish and christian martyrs say "i will die for what i believe"
Muslim martyrs say "you will die for what i believe"

I digress from the OP, but i had to answer this.



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 07:40 PM
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In the kinds of conflicts America now finds itself involved in, tanks are over rated. Lumbering, fuel gulping and road bound SMT's (Slow Moving Targets) All you need to do is figure out when and where one is going to predictably pass by and set off a ton of explosives under it.

This was done in Iraq more than our Government I think would like to admit. The Iraqis aren't afraid to admit it.Remember, war is hell and there are two sides to every conflict. The source is obvious and some of the images contained herein are repetitive and not Abrams. Turn it down if you can't handle the music.

www.youtube.com...


Also, anyone ever play the game Risk? The idea was to conquer the world. All participants quietly build their armies until World War broke out. If America is shipping hundreds of tanks and other mobile weapons platforms to the general region of the Middle East and southern Europe, then it's just positioning its pieces for the expected major conflict to come. Over O_I_L.



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by aRogue
I see China or Israel being a behind-the-scenes player in all this tbh...


That is what I am thinking. If China gets ahold of one they will not only be able to build their own they will know a lot more about how to kill it. How much do you want to bet that a few of those tanks come up "missing"?



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by DieBravely
 





All the most popular brainwashing cults have been responsible for untold millions of innocent people's deaths. Yours included.


Cults yes. Christendom yes, but not christianity. True believers in Christ want to save lives and souls and bring peace. True believers in Islam want to kill people that do not believe what they do no matter what religion they have or if they are atheists. They hate atheists worse than christians. I'm not excusing what christendom has done in the crusades or the spanish inquisition (which targeted my protestant brothers i might add). I'm just telling you the difference between a true christian and follower of Christ's teachings and true followers of Muhammad and his teachings of "convert or kill".

Jewish and christian martyrs say "i will die for what i believe"
Muslim martyrs say "you will die for what i believe"

I digress from the OP, but i had to answer this.


Got any more lies you want to spread? Your post is nothing but pure Christian propaganda. You might actually learn something about Islam because if you did you would know all of this is wrong. Also in your other post you referred to Mohammed as the messiah of the Muslims that was wrong also Mohammed was a prophet not the messiah at the end of times Jesus will be the messiah for the Muslims.



posted on Oct, 7 2011 @ 10:37 PM
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reply to post by buster2010
 





at the end of times Jesus will be the messiah for the Muslims.


Really? Then why do the muslims disobey him and blow up innocent people? Jesus is the Living Word, the bible made flesh and one of his commandments is "thou shalt not murder". So muslims think they can kill tons of people and obey Muhammad over the Lord? Thats a rather backwards way of thinking. If you can't follow Christ's teachings now, how do you expect to follow them when he returns? Do you think his teachings do not apply to you now but only in the future? Where does "love your enemies as you love your friends" fit into sawing off peoples heads with serrated knives or executing people who refuse to denounce Jesus (as the christian pastor in Iran)? Where does running into a crowd of people with explosives attached to you and killing dozens of people fit into "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Muslim do not follow Christ is the conclusion, they follow the teachings of a homocidal maniac whose policy is "convert or kill" and not "turn the other cheek" and "forgive and pray for those whom offend you".

"In the end times Jesus will be the messiah for the muslims", news flash, he was already the messiah and for all men, the muslim do not have a monopoly on the Lord. You follow a religion, the religion of Islam, not Christ.



posted on Oct, 8 2011 @ 02:10 AM
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There's a lot of assumptions and ideas being thrown around in this thread, so I'll try clarify as many as I can and correct as much as I can.

These tanks are not being sold or bought. They are being transferred from US Army surplus stocks, to the Greek army, to replace old M48 tanks that the Greek army still uses in large numbers. The cost to the Greek government will be the transportation costs, and secondly the refurbishment, which will be from what I've been told, 50-150,000 dollars per tank. At a date yet to be decided these tanks will also be upgraded to the latest standards.
The US Army is not buying more new tanks for it self, it is upgrading it's tank fleet so some good upgrades will be available.

The M48 tanks will be retired and put out of service. They may even end up in Iraqi or Afghan service like some BMP1's that the Greek army donated.

The M48 tanks are used on the Greek Islands. So what will happen is the Leopard 1A5 tanks the Greek army has, will be transferred to the islands, and the Abrams together with the Leopard 2A6HEL and 2A4, some 700-800 tanks, will form Europe's largest and most powerful tank fleet in Thrace.

Make no mistake, there is a threat and current danger to the sovereignty and security of Greece, and the stability and security of the entire Eastern Mediterranean region. It is called the Republic of Turkey.

On a routine basis, Turkey sends its aircraft into Greek airspace, and the Athens FIR without lodging the mandatory paperwork for flying in another FIR. This puts civilian air traffic in danger, and many times there have been near mid-air collisions between Turkish F16's and commercial airliners.
The same thing happens on the water. They also send survey/exploration vessels into Greek waters to search for oil and gas. In another country's territorial waters! They are doing the same thing in Cyprus now.

Earlier in the year a plan was uncovered as part of the Ergenekon scandal in Turkey, by the Islamists against the Kemalists, that would have seen false flag attacks by the Turkish armed forces against Turkey that would have been blamed on Greece to justify going to war. The whole point of this was for the Kemalist generals to topple the Islamist government.

Turkey and Greece are NATO members, and supposed to be allies. Right?
Wrong.
In the early 1990's Turkey issued a threat of war against Greece, if Greece extended it's territorial waters to 12nm, as allowed under the International Law of the Sea Convention, which Greece and every other civilized country are signatories of.
Although defacto Greece has an EEZ, it has yet to formally declare it because of this threat of war by Turkey.
Although everyone(except Turkey) basically already recognizes this EEZ. Look it up in Google.
Although the government recently announced it would be declaring, along with exploration for oil and gas would be commencing soon in the Ionian and Mediterranean sea.

Turkey has issued "grey zones" against Greece's sovereign territory in the Aegean. Islands that are part of Greece, inhabited by Greeks, recognized the world over as Greek, as part of Greece, etc.
If you want to know how ridiculous these claims are, there is a small island called Gavdos just south of Crete in the Mediterranean. Turkey claimed this island was a gray zone, that it's sovereignty was in dispute and should belong to Turkey.
The reason? It's been known for years that that area in question, south of Crete, holds well over 1.5 trillion cubic meters of natural gas deposits.
That is pretty much the reason for these gray zones.
Anyone remember in 1996 when Greece and Turkey came to the brink of war, with both sides deploying their forces in the Aegean and Greece starting a mobilization of its reserves for war?
That was over tiny uninhabited islets called Imia. In the waters(well seabed) around Imia, there is a rare earth mineral that is extremely valuable. Now we all know how important rare earth minerals are these days.

You can see Turkeys behavior now towards Israel and Cyprus. This is what has been going on in/over the Aegean for decades now.

So before anyone sits here passing judgment or questioning the need to replace old equipment with modern equipment, you should be aware of the facts.

Further, Turkey has what is known as the Aegean Army based on its west coast. Along with tens of thousands of soldiers, thousands of tanks, based on Thrace. All aimed at Greece. Supposedly these are our allies.
Well, maybe if you guys would like to come visit an Aegean island and see first hand the air space violations etc, you might start to understand what's really going on and why Greece requires a modern military.

Up until 1996 Greece didn't spend much on defence, and it was rather neglected. Then the challenges from Turkey started with seriousness. Since then defence is taken a lot more seriously.



posted on Oct, 8 2011 @ 02:19 AM
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And because it doesn't quite fit in the previous post, if you guys, especially Europeans, are angered or annoyed that Greece is still acquiring weapons, then this is an issue you need to take up with your government representatives.

Your governments for years have sided with the Turks. They have turned a blind eye to Turkish aggression, to Turkish threats and hostility. They have empowered the Turks, and allowed them to be emboldened by a lack of European unity and a lack of support.

Greece is a member of the European Union. It has been part of the European community for decades.
Yet rarely, except in the last few years, have we seen any support from Europe regarding the threats from Turkey.

On top of that, they not only sold weapons to Greece, but sold them to Turkey as well.
If Germans are pissed off that Greece is buying weapons, then why is Germany selling 8 modern and advanced submarines(the same Greece has bought) to Turkey?
Why did Germany also sell nearly 300 Leopard 2A4 tanks to Turkey?
Why did the Eurofighter consortium offer to make Turkey a partner in the project?

When your governments and defence companies are arming an enemy country, while arming an ally at the same time, don't bitch about the ally buying more weapons in the face of continued threats and aggression.
Especially when YOUR governments do nothing to reign in the threats and hostility from the other side, but rather encourage it.

Every incident is reported straight to the European Union and NATO by Greece.
What have either done to reign in Turkey? Absolutely nothing.
So when your governments do absolutely nothing to reign in a hostile country, but actually encourage it by selling it weapons, then the result will be Greece buying more weapons.

And that's what they want. To prolong the arms race and cold war in the Aegean.


Do you want to know what Germany was doing last year at the height of crisis?
While it's leaders were publicly slamming Greece, on the side they were selling artillery to Greece and pressing it to place an order for the Eurofighter. The artilery, transferred from German army stocks, came, the Eurofighter order didn't.

So don't sit there thinking this is all reckless spending either.
There's been no new purchases of major weapons for quite a while, and even the new frigates are pushed back.


That's just one example of the double standards, two faced nature, of those who are complaining the most.



posted on Oct, 8 2011 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Okay, before we start pointing fingers, let's look at the Bible. In the book of Joshua, Chapter 6, verse 21, "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword" (NKJV). And this was AFTER the Israelites have been given the Ten Commandments.

Now, I'm not supporting or condoning the course of action of certain Muslims, but I am AWARE that in Christianity's history God has given Christians orders to kill all of their enemies. Men, women, and children. And during the Inquisition, Christians would torture and kill Muslims along with other religious groups. I guess what I'm trying to say is, look at the similarities before looking at the differences.

Also, from my (admittedly brief) research into Islamic jihad, I found the following verses from the Qur'an (a search for "Qur'an 2:190 will get you similar results). The abbreviated version used to rationalize jihad is "Kill them whenever you overtake them". So some Muslims feel they ARE following the commandments of God.

However the full version is, "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits, for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them whenever you overtake them, and expel them from where they have expelled you, for tumult and oppression is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." Takes a bit of a different tone when placed in context doesn't it?

By the way, buster 2010: Personally I resent the term "Christian propaganda".

Anyhow, we're getting off the subject of tanks being sent to Greece.



posted on Oct, 10 2011 @ 04:15 AM
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Originally posted by DutchBigBoy
So we spent billions to help them get out of misery and they decide to buy tanks for that money instead of fixing their own problems. The dutch has because of the cuttbacks decided to get rid of all the tanks in the Netherlands.

I can see it allready whats happening in my mind, we want our money back and they are standing ready with their newly bought tanks.... try to get it if you can.


Really dumb post.

You think the money the EU gave Greece, has gone to tanks?

Nobody is going to get their money back because the world economy is headed for a major crash and a third world war. If you cant see it coming, then that's your problem.

The Dutch cut back their military not because of economic issues, but because they have no need for tanks. They are in a peaceful region were everyone is allied with each other.
Greece isn't in such a region therefore needs to maintain a certain level of preparedness and capability.

It is a rather f****** simple concept to understand. If ignorant individuals like you have absolutely no freaking idea and cant comprehend something so simple, THEN STOP COMMENTING ON MILITARY MATTERS.



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