Why do people say "God" without giving the specific name of said God?, page 14

reply to post by Seed76

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I am not Trinitarian, but my denomination, has nothing to do as to how i behave. My denomination, if you want to know is Greek Orthodox, since i am a Greek.

Good to know...

However, generally speaking, Gnosticism taught that salvation is achieved through special knowledge (gnosis). This knowledge usually dealt with the individual's relationship to the transcendent Beings/Teachers

quite true, but in fact i have no special knowledge of anything... At least nothing that can't be found by the average person...

I never knew Socrates personally either. Does that mean when i am writing about Socrates i am writing lies? There are many ways to determine if my writings about Socrates are true or not. Hence the whole debate.

True but when one teaches something that is in direct contradiction of the actual person his lessons are based on, i consider that a lie...

All the scripture is "Inspired" not just Paul´s my friend.

See this is where we are at a disagreement, Inspired by who? IF you say God, i will show you passages that prove otherwise... What Jesus taught was inspired by God, of that i have no doubt... other then him, in my opinion the rest of the bible is useless... aside from the telling of his comming...

The thing that you seem to ignore, is that Jesus never denied His divinity. When He says i and the father are one, He is meaning exactly that.

I do not deny his divinity, as he said he was the "son of God"... Though i will also say that I and My Father are one as well... and you and the Father are also one... As we are all children of God...

If he wasn´t divine, He wouldn´t been able to forgive sins for example, He wouldn´t been able to heal the sick, He wouldn´t been able to raise the dead(i.e. Lazarus) etc. In other words Jesus was God in flesh. Fully divine and fully human.

Again i disagree, that does not mean he was God... though as i've said, i do not deny his divinity. The difference between him and us, was that he remembered where he came from... he remembered standing in the presence of God, which no man can hold claim to... Him being perfected in his knowledge of God gave him these abilities, which i also believe every man has... though who can claim perfection?

The word "trinity" , is a term used to denote, that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I" and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God.

Yes i know the trinity... again its not something Jesus or his diciples taught...

That´s the Gnostic teaching, that you are saved by special knowledge(gnosis), which i disagree my friend.

And of course you are free to disagree, but that "special knowledge" is within your bible... and its taught in gnostic scripture and many other religions as well...

Isn´t that the same thing that the serpent said? "..Ye shall not surely die."

Well first i don't put any stock in Genesis, the book is flawed... If that book was inspired by God he would not have made errors within its pages... IF you read Jesus and what he taught, there are no flaws... that isn't true within the rest of the bible....

Secondly, i don't deal with the silly stories of a talking snake either... or Adam and Eve... Both of which are fairy tales... i chose to deal with the reality of the book.

Do you actually believe that a Loving Father wouldn´t give the gift of salvation freely to everyone? Remember Jesus came to do His Fathers will not His own will. So that those who believe in Him can have eternal life.

Yes i truely believe that a loving Father would give the gift of salvation to all of his children, not just the ones who "believe" something specific...

Let me ask you this... Do you truely believe that a loving father would deny that gift to those that are not christian? What of Buddhists, Hindu's, Shintoism, Krisnha, and the people of those beliefs? The members of those religions are far more peace loving then 90% of the christians in this world... how could he deny them of that same gift?

That´s true my friend. That´s why i am also doing my own study.

Do yourself a favor and step outside of the confines of the bible in your studies... The lessons of Jesus can be found in many scriptures... Believe what you "feel" is truth...

reply to post by Seed76

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In other words Jesus was God in flesh.

You mean whatever individual god he was before the incarnation, right?

Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God.

You are just explaining the Trinity Doctrine, but don't believe it yourself, right?

reply to post by Akragon

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See this is where we are at a disagreement, Inspired by who? IF you say God, i will show you passages that prove otherwise...

The writers of the scripture were inspired, by God and not that God wrote the Bible as you try to imply.

in my opinion the rest of the bible is useless...

It´s your opinion and i respect that.

Though i will also say that I and My Father are one as well... and you and the Father are also one...

That´s true. Me and my Father are also one, but we are humans, we have human nature.

Again i disagree, that does not mean he was God... though as i've said, i do not deny his divinity.

Then answer me this question please: What is the difference between God´s Divinity and Jesus Divinity?

Well first i don't put any stock in Genesis, the book is flawed...

The book of Genesis is not a science textbook my friend. The first book of Genesis simply convey the message that God is the Creator, as revealed through the six acts of creation. And not how God created the cosmos, because it´s impossible to comprehend how and by what means He created the cosmos.

Secondly, i don't deal with the silly stories of a talking snake either... or Adam and Eve... Both of which are fairy tales... i chose to deal with the reality of the book.

The second book of Genesis is much deeper that talking snakes and trees.

Yes i truely believe that a loving Father would give the gift of salvation to all of his children, not just the ones who "believe" something specific...

If you believe that, then why you stated on your previous post :

but the flaw is that the "gift" is given to everyone regardless of what they believe...

In which i answered :

Do you actually believe that a Loving Father wouldn´t give the gift of salvation freely to everyone? Remember Jesus came to do His Fathers will not His own will. So that those who believe in Him can have eternal life.

Either i have misread your post, or you have mine.

Do yourself a favor and step outside of the confines of the bible in your studies...

I have done that my friend and still doing it. But none of the other philosophies and scriptures "felt" as truth to me.

The lessons of Jesus can be found in many scriptures...

Then why you have chosen Jesus and not Buddha? What so special about Jesus, since as you said Jesus lessons can be found in many scriptures.

Believe what you "feel" is truth...

That i do my friend. And thank you for your kind replies to my posts.

Peace

reply to post by jmdewey60

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You mean whatever individual god he was before the incarnation, right?

I mean the word was made flesh.

You are just explaining the Trinity Doctrine, but don't believe it yourself, right?

I do believe in the Trinity. Do you believe the Trinity Doctrine? Simple yes or no will do.

Peace

Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by jmdewey60

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You mean whatever individual god he was before the incarnation, right?

I mean the word was made flesh.

You are just explaining the Trinity Doctrine, but don't believe it yourself, right?

I do believe in the Trinity. Do you believe the Trinity Doctrine? Simple yes or no will do.

I believe in a trinity but not in "the Trinity Doctrine". I am an Arian.
Unless someone can explain the Greek of John 1 to me to show where I am wrong, then to me it does not say that (the word was made flesh).
Nowhere in the NT is that word (which is used close to 250 times, in that particular morphology) used to mean for one thing to change into another thing. It means, in the word form as found in John 1, that a situation came about. Also, the way Logos (word) and Sarx (flesh) are used is not what it ends up in the "official" translation.
Logos is something which starts out as being God, as in part of God, or maybe what God is, which is thought, and plans and ideas, or consciousness, but whatever that god-essence is, it gets transmitted by different means, such as word or light or spirit. Light came, according to this chapter in John, and people did not perceive it. Then, not to be thwarted, God sends it in the form of word. The purpose of this word is to transmit this truth of God to us, flesh. That flesh, humanity, can perceive this word through means of examining it on a physical plane of existence, since we seem to have missed it on a higher plane. But, once we have this word to flesh (message to us) on that plane and at least perceive it in that way, then the spirit form of transmission takes over from there, and we do perceive it on that higher plane of consciousness.

reply to post by Seed76

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The writers of the scripture were inspired, by God and not that God wrote the Bible as you try to imply.

I didn't say God wrote the bible, and further more i do not believe most of it was inspired by God either... If it were there would not be bible God inspiring his children to murder / rape / pillage his own children...

That´s true. Me and my Father are also one, but we are humans, we have human nature.

As was Jesus... IMHO Which is why i've studied the gnostic scriptures as well, they tend to show a human side of him... Either way theres no proof they are authentic, nor is there proof the bible is either.

Then answer me this question please: What is the difference between God´s Divinity and Jesus Divinity?

God is the all, everything without exception... all dimentions, all of the physical... Jesus was one spirit who remembered where he came from... even remembered being in the presence of God. Not something many if not any man in history could lay claim to... He said this specifically...

13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

The book of Genesis is not a science textbook my friend. The first book of Genesis simply convey the message that God is the Creator, as revealed through the six acts of creation. And not how God created the cosmos, because it´s impossible to comprehend how and by what means He created the cosmos.

If it was inspired by God, why did he get the order of events wrong from one chapter to another? God makes mistakes within his own book?

The second book of Genesis is much deeper that talking snakes and trees.

I've read it many times.... great story... nothing more.

Yes i truely believe that a loving Father would give the gift of salvation to all of his children, not just the ones who "believe" something specific...

If you believe that, then why you stated on your previous post :

but the flaw is that the "gift" is given to everyone regardless of what they believe...

In which i answered :

Do you actually believe that a Loving Father wouldn´t give the gift of salvation freely to everyone? Remember Jesus came to do His Fathers will not His own will. So that those who believe in Him can have eternal life.

Either i have misread your post, or you have mine.

yes perhaps we have a misunderstanding here... Let me clairify.

The gift of the spirit is given to all living creatures... It doesn't matter what you believe, because we all go to the afterlife... theres no exceptions to that rule. Though when you get there you will have to answer for your deeds in your last incarnation

I have done that my friend and still doing it. But none of the other philosophies and scriptures "felt" as truth to me.

The lessons of Jesus can be found in many scriptures...

Then why you have chosen Jesus and not Buddha? What so special about Jesus, since as you said Jesus lessons can be found in many scriptures.

You actually answered this within this reply... What is written in the bible is pure truth, it gives lessons on how one should react to any situation... I did not chose to believe what is truth... I know what is truth in my heart, and he defined that path which i walk every day of my life. Theres nothing wrong with Buddha, nor is there anything wrong with other great spiritual teachers... What is special about Jesus is.... simply put, his teachings are flawless... Which i can't seem to find with others... If you've read Issa, you'll also notice He also pointed out flaws within other teachers as well, something no one else could ever do... Even the buddhists call him their buddha... I think that is rather important, if of course you consider that book truth.

That i do my friend. And thank you for your kind replies to my posts.

My pleasure, and same to you my friend

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Blarneystoner

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First off Jesus did not speak a single word in Isaiah... So that would make your statement of Him conferming that he is God.... incorrect.

REALLY? I think you like alot of members on ats need to read the bible before attempting to attack such doctrines.

Jesus quoting from Isaiah
Luke 4:16-30
(KJV)

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet ESAIAS(in Greek). And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18(Isaiah 61:1-2) "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture(prophecy) fulfilled in your ears." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


clearly the book of Isaiah was speaking of Jesus the whole time. as he said to them "this day is fulfilled".
now notice at what the next sentence in isaiah was if he would of kept reading...
.
Isaiah 61:2--"To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,(Jesus stopped here,even-though there is a comma in Isaiah)" AND THE DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD; TO COMFORT ALL THAT MOURN". <<<< this is future and Jesus knew that he will return to full fill this and lots of other prophecies. that is why he stopped reading when he did. it is important to see even what Jesus did not read.

reply to post by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST

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Isaiah 61:2--"To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,(Jesus stopped here,even-though there is a comma in Isaiah)" AND THE DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD; TO COMFORT ALL THAT MOURN". <<<< this is future and Jesus knew that he will return to full fill this and lots of other prophecies. that is why he stopped reading when he did. it is important to see even what Jesus did not read.

This is the word, ανταποδοσεως, in the Greek Old Testament which is most likely what Jesus was reading from. This is one of those words in the Septuagint that is not found in the New Testament, so you need a Lexicon of the Septuagint. I have the up-to-date version which is the Analytical Lexicon to the Septuagint, Expanded Edition. It gives seven readings within three definitions:
1. giving back in return, rendering, requiting, repayment, recompense 2. retribution 3. reward.

This is how you get the conflict in the Gospels between the common folk who read the Greek version, and the Scribes and Pharisees who could read the Hebrew text. The Greek is nicer, the Hebrew is crueler (or more prone to be read as being something cruel, lacking the nuance of the Greek {barbaric}).

reply to post by jmdewey60

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The fact is Jesus was reading from the Isaiah. in my copy of the Septuagint it translates as to "the day of recompense" the word recompense would refer to give something to the believers as it will happen in the end of the world. or the rapture .we will be recompensed with eternal life and a new body. which still is a future prophecy and is why Jesus stopped there before he read this at the synagog.

reply to post by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST

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I was just saying, Vengeance, is a really crude translation but one that shows up quite a bit in regular print book versions of the English Bible.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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yes but it is what the Hebrew is closer to.

Originally posted by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST
reply to post by jmdewey60

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yes but it is what the Hebrew is closer to.

Have you ever translated Hebrew?

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST
reply to post by jmdewey60

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yes but it is what the Hebrew is closer to.

Have you ever translated Hebrew?

yes i have, basic words. whats your piont? --Jesus is quoting Isaiah, period. he is still claiming to be everything the book of Isaiah says, whether the word is vengeance or recompense. i think both of these words can fit perfectly and still magnify his future coming.and he is coming back very soon

reply to post by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST

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The point is, nothing, because you don't know about how problematic biblical Hebrew is.
We don't know if the Masoretic text is closer. The Greek is older.
You are wrong. Look at a decent commentary and you see where Jesus skipped all over the place to cherry pick a specific story which he thought explained his mission.
The fact that he used part of a single verse does not mean he cared about even the rest of that verse. He was just doing the same thing a lot of people do here on ATS in their posts where they post 20 disjointed verses with a common theme.
Despite what some people think on this sub-forum, it is good to have some knowledge about the Bible so you don't waste your time on dead ends.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST

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The point is, nothing, because you don't know about how problematic biblical Hebrew is.
We don't know if the Masoretic text is closer. The Greek is older.
You are wrong. Look at a decent commentary and you see where Jesus skipped all over the place to cherry pick a specific story which he thought explained his mission.
The fact that he used part of a single verse does not mean he cared about even the rest of that verse. He was just doing the same thing a lot of people do here on ATS in their posts where they post 20 disjointed verses with a common theme.
Despite what some people think on this sub-forum, it is good to have some knowledge about the Bible so you don't waste your time on dead ends.

DO NOT COMPARE THE LORD TO THE IGNORANCE SPOKEN OF HERE ON ATS . HOW DARE YOU??
LIKE IV TOLD YOU BEFORE GET YOUR MIND RIGHT IS LIKE IM ARGUING WITH A CHILD.(BIBLICALY SPEAKING)

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by JB1234

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..... it is calling a class of people witnesses to Jehovah..

The clue is in verse 7.
The English translation does not bring it out clearly. It just says, Made.
This is why you should read the Septuagint and look at the Greek.
κατεσκεύασα, kataskeuazō comes from a word that means, fully equipped.
Look for it in the NT, and you find it in what John the Baptist did, to prepare a people for a specific purpose.
Luke 1: 17
And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Could that be an inference to there being made people to be witnesses of the arrival of Jesus in his campaign?
It uses the exact same word as in
Isaiah 43: 7
everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.

It does not make sense to me to translate it as, made, when there is already that implied in two other words in the verse, created, and, formed.

edit on 21-10-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

The original verse would have contained the Tetragrammaton - the divine name of God...it's not talking about Jesus.- the verse says "LORD" ..... which has replaced YHWH...Therefore the NWT transaltes this verse from the original Greek as (Luke 1:17) "Also, he will go before him with E‧li′jah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people"

However people are entitled to their opinions.. I personally think that Jesus and Jehovah are two seperate beings..one is the almighty Creator (Jehovah), which literally translates from Hebrew as "the one who causes to become"........the other his first born son Jesus - meaning "salvation we owe to Jehovah".... who God uses as a master worker ......"through him all things were made".....

(Proverbs 8:30-31) . . ."then I (Jesus or Michael his heavenly name) came to be beside him (Jehovah) as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men"

(Colossians 1:15-16) . . .He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Jehovah), the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

It is therefore in THIS context that we can understand (Genesis 1:26) . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,. . . Jesus was a spirit being like his father but they made man in "their image" in that mankind had their qualities of love and justice etc

Just because Jehovah uses Jesus (his firstborn creation) as a master worker. this does not make him equal to his father THE God at all. (John 1:3) "All things came into existence through him (Jesus), and apart from him not even one thing came into existence"

Hence shortly before his death Jesus prayed... (John 17:4-5) . . ."I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was" (when he was a spirit creature in heaven with his Father)

reply to post by JB1234

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Personally i think we have it all wrong. Jesus told us that we are all Gods children. We on the other hand have a totally different idea. Because in stead of listening to Jesus, we read scripture.

We never understood what Jesus said in plain sight, and we sure as hell dont understand what we read from scripture. If we did understand, we would not have to argue any of this.

We will never know what the truth is, because no one understands anything about this. Jesus disciples never did.

reply to post by JB1234

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Short reply until I wake up more:
I would not be using the Septuagint if I thought that somehow the
Hebrew was more authoritative.
So, I don't care about any nonsense about a tetragrammaton.
Second, Colossians is not to me authoritative, meaning written
by Paul, and most likely a forgery.
If you have a book claiming to be written by someone which was not,
that is what you would call a forgery.
Hebrews I would not classify as a forgery because it does not
claim to be written by Paul, but was just assumed to have been by
people who happened upon it and wanted to incorporate
it into their version of the NT.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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We should not have to argue over which version of Scripture proves this or that.

The Athanasian Creed, describing the Trinity taught by many churches says ...“God works in mysterious ways.” - "The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible."

God is not a mystery!!!!. Jesus said that those“taking in knowledge of . . . the only true God” would receive blessings. ... (John 17:3) . . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

SIMPLES! Two different entities.

(Isaiah 42:8) 8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images".

How can we take in knowledge of God if he is a mystery? Far from concealing himself, he wants everyone to know him.—Jeremiah 31:34 “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them"

The Trinity Doctrine adopted by Christendom is not scriptural, it was not taught by the early disciples of Jesus nor the first Century Christians...instead it was adopted much later..... just like in Jesus day with the Pharisees and Jewish heirarchy polluting the Mosaic law..... in "Later times" men adopted unscriptual Christian teaching... “It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:7)
Their worship was “in vain,” or useless, because they put their religious tradition ahead of God’s requirements.

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