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Originally posted by Blarneystoner
Originally posted by JB1234
As I've said many times in this thread, there is not one single reference that Jesus claimed to be Jehovah.THAT would have been blasphemy!
Trinities of gods have flourished in Babylon, Assyria, and Egypt, as well as in Buddhist lands. Christendom too has its “holy” Trinity, which derives it's roots NOT from Scripture but from these pagan civilisations.
edit on 17-10-2011 by JB1234 because: Added detail
Here are two references. The first , Jesus specifically states "I am Jehova." In the second reference, Jesus tells his disciples to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 43: 10 - 12 (Young's Literal Translation)
10 Ye [are] My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I [am] He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.
11 I [am] Jehovah, And besides Me there is no saviour.
12 I declared, and saved, and proclaimed, And there is no stranger with you, And ye [are] My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I [am] God.
Matthew 28:16-20
16 And the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them, 17 and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver. 18 And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, 'Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth; 19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them—to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days—till the full end of the age.'
I am sure we all have considered those verses.
Consider these two verses :
Paul on the other hand, lied specifically about Jesus, which in my opinion corrupts all of his works...
Again, once a liar always a liar...
Unfortunatly it answers nothing... i do not care what paul has to say... I prefer to use the "once a liar always a liar" ideal...
Been there done that, considered, and denied.... I am me... does that mean I AM God?
John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"
Do i need to give you references as to how many people in the bible used the term I AM?
Realize cherry picking will get you nowhere with me my friend...
read the verses after the one you posted....
He flat out denies being God right here... Notice the question mark in the verse i underlined? That means he was questioning them, saying you want to stone me because i said i am THE SON OF GOD? Meaning he did not once say he was God...
which is a reference to Psalm 82:6 / 81 LXX.. It is called " A Psalm of Asaph." where God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Whom the Father hath sanctified - The word "sanctify" with us means to make holy; but this is not its meaning here, for the Son of God was always holy. The original word means to set apart from a common to a sacred use; to devote to a sacred purpose, and to designate or consecrate to a holy office. This is the meaning here. God has consecrated or appointed his Son to be his Messenger or Messiah to mankind. See Exodus 28:41; Exodus 29:1, Exodus 29:44; Leviticus 8:30.
And sent into the world - As the Messiah, an office far more exalted than that of magistrates.
I am the Son of God - This the Jews evidently understood as the same as saying that he was equal with God. This expression he had often applied to himself. The meaning of this place may be thus expressed: "You charge me with blasphemy. The foundation of that charge is the use of the name God, or the Son of God, applied to myself; yet that same term is applied in the Scriptures to magistrates. The use of it there shows that it is right to apply it to those who sustain important offices (see the notes of John 10:34-35). And especially you, Jews, ought not to attempt to found a charge of blasphemy on the application of a word to the Messiah which in your own Scriptures is applied to all magistrates. And we may remark here:
1. That Jesus did not deny that he meant to apply the term to himself.
2. He did not deny that it was properly applied to him.
3. He did not deny that it implied that he was God. He affirmed only that they were inconsistent, and were not authorized to bring a charge of blasphemy for the application of the name to himself.
My friend i need no help in understanding Jesus, but many do...
The clue is in verse 7.
..... it is calling a class of people witnesses to Jehovah..
That´s true, it answers nothing for you, since you do not care what he is saying, because it does not fit with your point of view concerning Jesus.
Not unless you are the God of Abraham. Which is exactly what Jesus said as is mentioned on John:
John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"
Why so Judgmental and touchy my friend?
Lets see if what you say is true.
Whom the Father hath sanctified - The word "sanctify" with us means to make holy; but this is not its meaning here, for the Son of God was always holy. The original word means to set apart from a common to a sacred use; to devote to a sacred purpose, and to designate or consecrate to a holy office. This is the meaning here. God has consecrated or appointed his Son to be his Messenger or Messiah to mankind. See Exodus 28:41; Exodus 29:1, Exodus 29:44; Leviticus 8:30
I am the Son of God - This the Jews evidently understood as the same as saying that he was equal with God.
He did not deny that it implied that he was God. He affirmed only that they were inconsistent, and were not authorized to bring a charge of blasphemy for the application of the name to himself.
To make it short and plainly, in the verses 34-38 which you quoted , Jesus simply mock them by saying, even in your law is written about me(i.e. The Messiah), and although you claim to know, you are not able to recongnise who is speaking to you. Further He says if you do not believe me, then believe the work I do, so that you can understand that I am He and He is Me.Which is the reason why the Jews wanted to stone Him again for Blasphemy.
For that i am sure my friend. But keep in mind what you said earlier "I prefer to use the "once a liar always a liar" ideal...
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
Paul on the other hand, lied specifically about Jesus, which in my opinion corrupts all of his works...
Again, once a liar always a liar...
What was that?
Yes, he did.
Originally posted by Akragon
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
Paul on the other hand, lied specifically about Jesus, which in my opinion corrupts all of his works...
Again, once a liar always a liar...
What was that?
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Christ did not say that... Not once...
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Yes, he did.
Originally posted by Akragon
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
Paul on the other hand, lied specifically about Jesus, which in my opinion corrupts all of his works...
Again, once a liar always a liar...
What was that?
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Christ did not say that... Not once...
Here:
John 5:17
So he told them, “My Father is working until now, and I too am working.”
It was understood at that time that only God could continue working on the Sabbath because God owns the world as His home.
Correct... simply because my point of view concerning him is what he said, and what he taught not what others said or taught...
Call me whatever you like...that is your judgement... i know what i know...
You can assume he was God all you want, but realize as i've said before, When you worship him as God, you make his Father who he spoke about... Non existant...
Jesus is the most important person who has ever lived since he is the savior, God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. In other words, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh, (John 1:1,14). This means that in the single person of Jesus is both a human and divine nature, God and man.
The divine nature was not changed when the Word became flesh (John 1:1,14). Instead, the Word was joined with humanity (Col. 2:9). Jesus' divine nature was not altered. Also, Jesus is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God in flesh, second person of the Trinity.
Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way.
But this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human.
But feel free to do so, i care not...
And btw this is what happens when you take someone elses word or interpretation... instead of reading what he said for yourself...
Are you by any chance Gnostic? The reason for asking is that Gnosticism, denies the incarnation of God as the Son. And their view is, that Christ was one of the special Gnostic teachers.
I haven´t called you anything my friend. I was simply echoing your words. Because is not right to call a dead person a liar.
I am not going to explain the "Trinity teachings", because there are many sources over the internet which explains it.
If my beliefs are wrong, then i am wrong. But you are not in position to tell me that i am wrong, just because you claiming to be right.
You may not care, but i care when people negating and nullifying the work that Jesus accomplished, by dying on the cross for all mankind, so that those who believe in Him, can have eternal life. A gift that is freely given to anyone who believes in Him. That gift of Salvation, you can not buy it, neither you can achieve salvation, through somekind of special knowledge (gnosis), or by any other means. That free gift, is not a free ticket to continue in sinning, my friend.
Actually, it´s always useful to read the Bible commentaries, in order to gain some insight and context. Further it´s useful to go back to the original language Greek/Hebrew, to do your own study. By doing so, you avoiding the danger to come to contradictions, and start creating cults based on non Biblical teachings.
Originally posted by jpaul
Originally posted by Magantice
reply to post by Reptius
I became disenchanted with the God of the bible for my own reasons. As for my God, his name is prime creator. He isnt listed in any bible. The difference between my God, Prime Creator, and the god of the bible is my Prime creator is pure love light and energy etc, where as the god of the bible is a vengeful God.
How does the depiction of God sending himself in human form to justify our sins so that we wouldn't have to pay the penalty ourselves portray a vengeful God - I think too often we attribute historical context/situations found in the bible with the characteristics we attach to the God of the Bible. Any open-minded individual (believer or not) can see that Christianity portrays a God of unconditional love.edit on 2011-1010-07 by jpaul because: (no reason given)edit on 2011-1010-07 by jpaul because: (no reason given)
I think the way to see this is:
. . .Jahveh is overbrimming with 'love'.
Oh yes, and how we are saved, us being also rebels and the sons of rebels, through association with the master rebel, get what he got, eternal life.
Unlike many trinitarians, i enjoy the debate with you simply because you to not retaliate with slanderous garbage as most do...
I've found that when many have no where else to turn they resort to character asassination... which slowly degrades the conversation...
you do not use this tactic, which is greatly apprecated and a breath of fresh air...
I've studied the gnostics quite extensively, but i do not subscribe to any religious group or sect... My studies are my own, and thus my authority is also my own... though what i say is backed by what Jesus taught, because i live my life by his example...
i only say what is true... paul did not know christ personally...
all his writings were "inspired" which is likely why he did not teach exactly what Jesus did...
Not once did Jesus make himself equal with God, though you will find that many said he did... you will not find that teaching within HIS words.
The idea makes God the son and the holy spirit equal, which is flawed...
You have your beliefs, i respect that... though the issue is your beliefs clash with mine... which is my arguement.
He died on the cross to show the world that there is life beyond death...
The idea of being "saved" that christians promote is flawed... You are saved by the knowledge and undenible proof he gave to us by returning after his body died...
Your spirit is a part of God and can not die..... it is eternal.
but the flaw is that the "gift" is given to everyone regardless of what they believe...
Incorrect... by doing soo you run the risk of falling into someone elses ditch... The blind should not lead the blind because both will fall into the ditch...
I don't see how david is greater in that sence...