Occupy Freemasonry

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Fair enough, thank you for the info.

As one final question, is there a site or something that I can visit that would be able to tell me if there are any lodges near me? I'm quite keen to go for a tour or preferably a chat with a member. However, I can't find that info anywhere. I'm going to be sending an email to the urgle site asking for the same info, but I thought I'd ask while I'm here

Thanks again,

Kyle

reply to post by kai22


click here

see, you won a free ipad.

Not really. Let us know what you think of your visit.

I am enjoying this thread. I too have had a lot of questions about the Masons, but like many other interests, the contradictory information leaves me with sense of cognitive dissonance. My understanding is that members are required to believe in a God in order to relate to the spirit and intention necessary to share the Masonic views and objectives. This is a perspective which I can respect, but I do not agree with. As an individual neck deep in wonder and following endless amounts of information regarding all of the big questions, I would feel like I would be missing the "show of the times" if I made a commitment to any one perspective, especially the 100% belief in God.
Having said that I am of good moral character and I strive to share and create my experiences with good intent.
Why would I not be qualified to contribute?
Could someone please expand as to why there is such a requirement?
Should knowledge be reserved only for those who believe in a deity....or any deity at that?

reply to post by Surfeit


The bottom line is that to become a Mason you must believe in God. Without that belief you wouldn't be able to complete certain aspects/oaths. We don't tell you which God you must believe in; that's up to the individual.

Originally posted by Surfeit
As an individual neck deep in wonder and following endless amounts of information regarding all of the big questions, I would feel like I would be missing the "show of the times" if I made a commitment to any one perspective, especially the 100% belief in God.

Now, a few words on looking for things. When you go looking for something specific, your chances of finding it are very bad. Because of all the things in the world, you're only looking for one of them. When you go looking for anything at all, your chances of finding it are very good. Because of all the things in the world, you're sure to find some of them.

—Daryl Zero, Zero Effect

Masonry doesn't tell you who your god is or what you must believe. But as an open-minded person, full of wonder, you have to admit that there's a higher chance of something that put the laws of the universe in order than the very narrow view that nothing did. It's not our place to know what the something is; how to define it or describe it; only to have faith that it's out there somewhere and if we look long enough we might find it.

Having said that I am of good moral character and I strive to share and create my experiences with good intent.
Why would I not be qualified to contribute?
Could someone please expand as to why there is such a requirement?

One could argue that without a codified religious belief, there are no consequences to hold your morals in check.

The nature of the obligations in Masonry is such that if you fail to uphold them, you will have disgraced yourself before God, whereas if you live by them faithfully, you might be rewarded in an afterlife.

Should knowledge be reserved only for those who believe in a deity....or any deity at that?

Knowledge can neither be controlled nor contained. There's nothing stopping a group of atheists starting their own clubs and talking about almost identical allegorical lessons. Of course, I say almost because all references to God would be removed…

Originally posted by Surfeit
Should knowledge be reserved only for those who believe in a deity....or any deity at that?

Masonic philosophy concerns the nature of God, the nature of Man, and the relationship between them. These questions, therefore, are not of interest to the atheist.

reply to post by network dude


Thank you! Apparently there are two lodges very close to me, one of which I've walked past many times without even realising Although that one actually appears to be a function room for hire... Mason owned perhaps?

How do I make sense of the info underneath each lodge on the site you sent me to? Here are the two I'm looking at;

1 Kings Road, Cleethorpes (This is the function room)
Cambridge Road, Great Grimsby

Thanks again

Kyle

reply to post by kai22


Hi there www.pgllincs.org... is a perfect place to find Masonic buildings but also the various lodges that meet at them.. many lodges will meet inside one building.

Blue Lodge (Craft) information for the Masonic Hall you walk by all the time is:

MASONIC HALL
1 KINGS ROAD
CLEETHORPES
N. E. LINCOLNSHIRE
DN35 0AJ

CRAFT
Lord Worsley Lodge No:3017
First Tuesday, October to May inclusive. Installation February.
Apollo Lodge No:5471
Third Tuesday, September to April inclusive. Installation October.
Vigilantes Lodge No:7264
Fourth Tuesday, September to April inclusive, except December and third Wed in May. Installation April.
St Peter Lodge No:7648
Fourth Friday, September, November to April inclusive except December and third Friday in October and May. Installation May.
Lodge of Old Clee No:8697
Third Wednesday, September to April inclusive. Installation March.

There are 9 other lodges that meet at the second location you were interested in

CRAFT
Pelham Pillar Lodge No:792
29th September and First Thursday November to May inclusive. Installation November.
Saint Albans Lodge No:1294
Third Wednesday, October to April inclusive and on 24th June, or if a Sunday the 23rd or 25th. Installation April.
Smyth Lodge No:2284
Second Wednesday, September to April inclusive. Installation November.
Earl of Yarborough Lodge No:2770
Third Thursday, September to April inclusive. Installation November.
Astral Lodge No:3841
Third Friday, September to April inclusive. Installation October.
Lord Heneage Lodge No:5979
Fourth Friday, September to April inclusive except December when 4th day after Christmas Day or if a Sunday, then the 5th day after Christmas Day. Installation October.
Saint James Lodge No:7415
Third Tuesday September to May inclusive except December. Installation March.
Wellow Abbey Lodge No:8819
Second Monday, October to May inclusive. Installation February.
Daylight Lodge No:9748
First Monday, Feb. Jul. Nov and third Monday in May. Installation May..

www.pgllincs.org... this is also the site for the Provincial Grand Lodge of Lincolnshire and will have other information about Masonry. Not very secret, huh?


Sorry I sent you to the same site Networkdude did! haha..

Making sense of the information ... As I said above here the "Craft" is the "Blue Lodge" or first 3 degrees, and multiple Lodges (the group of people is a Lodge, not the building) meet inside the building, sometimes called a Temple or a Hall, etc. The other information doesn't really matter now since the Blue Lodge is what matters first, but other bodies within Masonry will also hold meetings, you have to be a Master Mason to join them though.

reply to post by kai22


check out Rockpuck's post. The meeting times and days are there. Just show up about 45 minutes before a meeting, find a guy who looks nice, and ask him whatever you want to know. Most likely he will invite you in and show you around. You can tell him you have been talking to other masons to find what you have up till now. They should take the ball and help you run with it. If not, let us know. But please, let us know either way.

One could argue that without a codified religious belief, there are no consequences to hold your morals in check.

One could, and such logic would be faulty, as most morals are derived from the society you are raised in, which usually includes religious traditions. However, they are usually separate from the actual religious doctrine, save for places of high fundamentalism.
Which is probably a good thing, all things considered.

I am bound by my society, by the expectations of friends and family, and by the expectations I have for myself. Those are my moral standards.
If I violate common moral standards I can find my rights and privileges revoked, and/or loose friends and family.

No offence Rockpuck, y'know I like y'all. I just find that particular statement to be fairly simple and offensive.

Personally, one of the issues I take with religious folks is that some of them (several that I've met, but that makes up a small portion universally) feel that without God, there would be no reason to be moral.

Originally posted by RuneSpider

One could argue that without a codified religious belief, there are no consequences to hold your morals in check.

One could, and such logic would be faulty, as most morals are derived from the society you are raised in, which usually includes religious traditions. However, they are usually separate from the actual religious doctrine, save for places of high fundamentalism.
Which is probably a good thing, all things considered.
...
No offence Rockpuck, y'know I like y'all. I just find that particular statement to be fairly simple and offensive.

Don't go hatin' on Rockpuck, it's my quote you pulled. Then again, don't go hatin' on me either… I didn't say I would make that argument. I'm simply saying it's an argument that has been made by some. I don't agree with it either, but I don't consider myself religious in the slightest.

"One could argue…" == "Some have argued…" == "There are people who believe…"

Don't go jumping to conclusions that I agree with them, but you can't deny that there are people who think that.

reply to post by RuneSpider

Personally, one of the issues I take with religious folks is that some of them (several that I've met, but that makes up a small portion universally) feel that without God, there would be no reason to be moral.

I happen to be one of those that feel without God there is no reason to be moral. I've argued it in many threads. I'm not overly religious, I don't subscribe to any particular religion, but I do feel that everything "moral" is derived from a religious concept somewhere in current or ancient history. In my opinion, without some belief in spirituality, we are left with the law of the jungle. If we are to believe we have a limited time in the flesh, and nothing more before or after, then why would anyone act in any way that wasn't personally beneficial? With limited time, and no belief for any greater meaning to it all, we would surely act more selfishly, and we would waste much less time with mundane things that don't directly benefit us. I imagine, without any religious fabric whatsoever, our world would be a much more violent and dangerous world.

Someone recently pointed me in a new direction where "communities" act together to achieve more than an individual could achieve a lone. That is a good argument, but what about charity? There is absolutely no benefit to charity without a spiritual undertone. Like I said, I don't believe anyone has to be part of a large organized religion, but I don't trust anyone without some sort of spirituality.

reply to post by JoshNorton

Arg, sorry. I wasn't hating, though I do take offence at that thought.
In my defence, I wasn't fully awake yet. Been having problems in mylife due to this sort of mentality and sort of have a light trigger.

Don't go jumping to conclusions that I agree with them, but you can't deny that there are people who think that.

Yes there are, there are also those who believe otherwise.
Sorry I jumped, this topic has been a hot one for me over the last couple of months.
I need to finish my coffee before getting involved here...


reply to post by getreadyalready

I happen to be one of those that feel without God there is no reason to be moral.

I'd be happy to discuss this with you, either in this thread or another, as it might veer off topic.

I will start by referencing the Golden Rule.
it's origins far predate Christ, and is present in secular and theistic organisations.
And it's fairly simple, you treat others as you wish to be treated. If you help others, you are more likely to receive help yourself.
To me, there is great meaning in developing the future for my descendants, to living on as a pleasant memory in the minds of those I touch, with the expectation that my memory won't last to terribly long after my death.
In my society, if I were to act out simply how I wanted to act out, at best I'd end up broke andon the street, at worse I'd be confined to a small cage.

Now here's a caveat, I don't really want to commit sins like theft or murder, I have no desire to. I have no desire to rape, or in anyway otherwise violate another's rights.

As I mentioned earlier, I hold myself to two standards, how others see me and how I see me. I would never do anything to say, jeopardise the way my niece looks up to me unless I had no other choice.

If I did something to offend those I respect or love, I wouldn't beg for forgiveness, I'd work to earn it.

And again, I apologise for misquoting and misunderstanding.

reply to post by RuneSpider


I might make a thread on this issue when I get back from vacation. It does entail a lengthy discussion, and it would lead us off topic in this thread.

To be on topic, Freemasonry does tell us that without a belief in GAOTU, there can be no "bond" and a man cannot be trusted at his word alone. Others in this thread can probably quote it more accurately than me, but it is part of the Worshipful Master's speech in degree work when recounting the cable-tow being removed from the candidate.

So, while Freemasonry is respectful of all religions, and accepting of all denominations of "God" by any name, it does require a belief in some form of god to be certain of a man's honor and integrity.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Certainly, which is why, though I respect the fraternity, I have dropped my attempts to become a member.

I myself am going on holiday (Going to Louisiana to see Bill Nye at CSI con. Yes, for a fellow who loves MMA I am very much a nerd.) so I don't expect to be on much until I get back on the first.

Looking forward to the discussion, it's usually been my opinion that Masons are fairly well rounded philosophically, even if I disagree with the outcomes.

Originally posted by Quickfix
reply to post by Masonic Light

 

Then I am thinking of another book then.

And if you read what i said about Napoleon NOT being in the book, but a SIMILAR hand gesture taken in portraits, you wouldn't of had to write another line......

If you're going to make a snarky reply (your second sentence) then you should proof it. It's "wouldn't HAVE had," not "wouldn't OF had." A writer would know this, no?

reply to post by RuneSpider


Without a spiritual belief, that is, without a belief in God or perhaps more importantly the Soul ... what is the reason to be moral? I got that answer: Legal consequence. Other than that, nothing. Why be a good person, why strive to help people, to better yourself or even work hard? Look through Human history and you will see a belief in God or the Soul led to nearly every major development in architecture, art, literature and so on.. IMO, our sense of self awareness, the sense that there is something "more" to us than just our bodies is the fundamental difference between us and animals..

ok ok NOW you can hate me!

reply to post by partycrasher


I have a better idea!

How about, instead, you mind your own damn business, and leave men who are trying to better themselves alone?

Just a thought.

reply to post by partycrasher


I have to admit, partycrasher, your thread title cracked me up.

At this rate, we'll be occupying EVERYTHING! LOL!

Next up.... OCCUPY WALMART!

reply to post by getreadyalready

To be on topic, Freemasonry does tell us that without a belief in GAOTU, there can be no "bond" and a man cannot be trusted at his word alone.

Without a belief in the GAOTU, regardless of what you call it in your religion, man has no one common bond that ties him to all brothers in the Lodge to swear an oath to. It's a supernatural 3rd party if you will, assuming the candidates beliefs are genuine to swear an oath and break it not only violates the rules of the Lodge and all of Masonry but your own deity which is the same deity as all your brethren, breaking an oath with your God. (this is why agnostics cannot be Masons). Masonry also subscribes to the belief that without a belief in God a man has no spiritual direction to use as a standard in which he is to better himself by.

Of course we take our oaths seriously, even if our society does not. Breaking our oath is like stabbing your brothers in the back and slapping your mama too!