"Inca Airplane" and Flying Lawnmowers

In the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series, we find the infamous characterization of the Inca (or Moche) artifact (dated c. 500 AD) which clearly looks to us as a representation of an airplane, "proven" to be an airplane because a model of it can actually fly.

To quote the "expert"

"...show us how perfect ancient people were working out aerodynamic design..."

See the opening of this video:



However, and as a video response:



I admit that the little object look like an airplane; but that a scaled-up version of it can fly means nothing-- as witnessed by the lawnmower video.

To be honest, what it looks like is not just an airplane-- but like airplanes from the late 1940s to the early 1960s-- the earliest developments of supersonic flight.

Are we to believe that ancient aliens, capable of interplanetary travel, demonstrated only the most rudimentary aerodynamic design skills? Don't you think the aliens might have showed them something closer to the Wright Flyer instead, if intending to teach; or a Millennium Falcon if intending to impress?

Perhaps we are to believe that the Moche were building airplanes on their own, a jewelry representation of an airframe surviving, but nothing survived of a factory producing the needed propulsion systems? We know that culture practiced human sacrifice and worshiped the moon, so I'm thinking it is a bit unreasonable to imagine that they produced (much less conceived of) powered flight.

If our experience was limited to any time in history prior to 1940, our best guess would be that it represents a flying fish or a sting ray. And if our experiences were limited to only present day airframe technology, we would not see it as an airplane, but again, as a flying fish or a sting-ray. The Moche, by the way, were fishermen.

We are seeing our own culture in an object created by another culture, just as Christians might see a Cross in an Egyptian anch, in that they have similarities in appearance, but very different meanings by intent.

My response?


You do not find miniature gold models of modern lawnmowers.

Muahahahaha. Flying RC car.

reply to post by Frira


Yes, and saw a thread about this (another ATS Forum) and plenty of good discussion to bring information.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Oh, and flying lawnmower? Yeah, been a concept since I started flying R/C models in the 70s. Look for the flying Snoopy Doghouse, too!


Forgot to add....

The usual consensus of opinion seems to be those trinkets are most likely stylized representations of animals, most likely fish of some sort. They seem to have "eyes", after all. Could have been a religious totem -- but, there are so few of them, one has to wonder if it was just a fluke, or very small "sect".....

Originally posted by BIGPoJo
My response?


You do not find miniature gold models of modern lawnmowers.

However, if you did, that would also be an excellent argument for the advances grass-cutting methods of the ancients.

I would like to add as well that the lawnmower didn't appear to have much in the way of aerodynamics and was not flying in very pretty fashion...I think keeping it in the air for any length of time might be problematic.

And we still have the problem of explaining what these items are supposed to represent otherwise - I take it most ancient doodads had fairly mundane explanations and were obvious representations of something in the lives of the people making them?

As to why it wouldn't be something more advanced - for the devil's advocate position, everyone loves classics. We have plenty of examples today of people collecting representations of non-disputed historical items...people still make recreations of plenty of 'primative' things (weapons and armor jump to mind, as well as the Wright Flyer ).

Who knows?

I'll bite...and another response.

Your logic fails you. An RC plane disguised as a lawnmower does not mow the lawn...but it does fly. Try that with an actual Sears and Roebuck.

The ancient astronaut theory will still be debated, and your Op has done absolutely nothing for your debunking cause. Fair enough?

Old news but please allow me to explain something.

If there was a 10,000 year old painting of an object that looked like a landing module. You and I might say "that is without doubt a landing module just look at it"

If you went back in time to our great grand parents time when they were kids and showed them a picture of the painting they'd say" that's a 4 legged pot belly stove just look at it".

Why? because we dont know what the painting is but we do know what a landing module looks like and the great grand parents in there childhood didn't know a luner module but they knew a 4 legged pot belly stove.

The fact is it's not what you think it is but what you think it is is the closest thing your brain can find to match it.

Show a 5 year old an ancient Greek statue of a scribe holding a tablet and that 5 year old will tell you it's an ipad.

What you see isn't what it is and what it is you'll never know..

What looks like a Delta wing aircraft like a mirage jet fighter such as this could very well have just been a coat pin. No one knows and it's proof of nothing.

They weren't aliens and they weren't technologically advanced. They were just copies of things that they knew and we don't.

And if you were to throw an old wooden dinner plate it would float like a frizby. But it's not a frizby.

reply to post by BIGPoJo

How about a stylized fish?

Hi guys

These little gold tokens are from the Quimbaya culture (Columbia) not Moche or Inca. They were probably made between the 700 AD to 1000 AD and perhaps up to the arrival of the Spanish.

Most appear to be representations of demons, flying fish and insects

In your op you stated in means nothing that the 'craft' can fly. I watched the same episode, what you failed to include was the simple fact the 'craft' is the perfect shape for flying at high velocities. If you were to do the kinds of test that creates an air colorful air current you will see a HUGE difference between your lawnmower and the artifact.

We are seeing our own culture in an object created by another culture, just as Christians might see a Cross in an Egyptian anch, in that they have similarities in appearance, but very different meanings by intent.

I believe it is foolish to believe these things aren't connected. If one has a proper understanding of history and how things work, one can realize how interconnected the conscious mind is. One might see a cross and one might see an ankh, if one was to look close enough, there is a common thread present that may have been transmitted by the way of philosophy. The story of Horus is remarkably similar to Christ, and the Kemetic (egyptian) people even had a word that is very similar which is Kares which is loosely translated as enlightened, annointed.
Back to the surface.
Do not assume we as a species are at our acme. We are in fact doing things way backwards. Really think about it we literally waste resources just to reach space when there are plenty of less expensive ways. This has to be the most primitive way ever.

but nothing survived of a factory producing the needed propulsion systems?

Like I stated earlier, the evidence is apparent. We can do greater things with less. The Earth and its magnetic field is the unlimited factory and fuel source, us modern folk haven't figured that out yet.
With our strongest nuclear powered cranes we still, to this day can not move some of the blocks used to construct the great pyramid at Giza. They did NOT have our cranes or our supposed sophisticated tech and yet they achieved things we can't even wrap our mind around.


So at the end of the day open your mind and realize the are many paths that lead to the same destination. Hell, for all I know we borrowed our systems from the ancient ones. Why do you think Hitler was fascinated with ancient India, and Tibet. Look at some of the technology he produced or perfected then look into some of cultures and it is clear to see how the missile, blimp, foo fighters and many many other things were recreated or reverse engineered.

*and no insect has wings on the bottom. So lets get that one out the way
This was a good episode btw. Peace and blessing to all.

reply to post by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS


Hmmm. It's well known how the pyramids were built. Also even if a crane can't be used to build a pyramid on that scale tens of thousands of workers building something for a person who was seen as a living God could.

reply to post by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

With our strongest nuclear powered cranes we still, to this day can not move some of the blocks used to construct the great pyramid at Giza. They did NOT have our cranes or our supposed sophisticated tech and yet they achieved things we can't even wrap our mind around.

Why do you think that? We (humanity) have had the power to move heavy rocks for thousands of years, we could do it 4,500 years ago and we can do it now.The heaviest object moved before power was 1,250 tons by the Russians.

We can wrap our brains around it without difficulty, the Romans took a number of Obelisks from Egypt, moved them to Rome and set them up - later after they had fallen they were put back up during the renaissance - all without 'nuclear powered cranes'.

You may wish to take a look at the Lateran obelisk which is 400+ tons - made in AE and moved to Rome

Lateran obelisk

On the other matter of the tokens, the one most commonly shown does look a bit like a plane many of the others are less so - you will note that the flying model didn't try to recreate the objects leading edge.

The problem one has in assigning this to a 'plane' status is where these Indians would have seen this type of aircraft? Whereas they would have seen lots of flying fish....

reply to post by steveknows


Im not here to argue.....But allow me to inform you, there weren't enough trees, hemp, or man power to erect those monuments that way. Sorry. I know its hard to believe that evolution and history of mankind is NOT linear, but hey the evidence stands. You guys swear they used torches and lamps when there is no evidence of soot of any kind. People have a hard time accepting facts. There are glyph's of light bulbs. The scoffers will say yeah right, but they have even been tested. So if they had electricity, which is said to be impossible because you guys think they are primitive, who knows what they had that we haven't discovered.

In order to receive new things one must create space by letting go of the old obsolete ones.

Hanslune, I knew you'd be here.

Really break down the pyramids. The 'granite' that is placed precisely within the kings chamber, They are aligned with the cardinal points before the invention of the compass, I could go on for hours.
As for the obelisk correct me if I'm wrong. They cut it into pieces just like when the moved the valley( correct me again if im wrong). These obelisk and statues were erected and cut precisely out of one piece originally. We still think the bent pyramid was an accident.LOL. We still don't have a clue in my humble opinion because it was deliberate. Look at the degrees. When we study Kemet(egypt) from the inside out, the records show it was either quartz or diamond at the top which to me is amazing. I bet you guys think this was for decoration or ceremonial purposes,huh?? Wrong again. What is even more fascinating, no one even questions or understands the foundation of the pyramids. I'm not talking about the encoded math formulas within the pyramids, I am talking about the pyramidal structure that supports the visible side. Oh wait, you aren't going to talk about that because napoleon or Zahi and the others haven't witnessed it. Right!??!!?

Fully analyze the pyramids with an open mind. Their purpose isn't even fully expressed in any textbook and no one talks about how Tesla was even empowered and inspired by the Giza plateau and we all know his revolutionary ideas are the key to the future, Or the past depending on who you are.
Nice try. But like I said above history isn't linear like we have been lead to believe. It's NOT a start here end here, up-down, and point-to-point. If the theory of evolution is correct according to darwin himself and other fools to follow a theory with a close mind, the creatures that evolve from each other should NOT exist simultaneously. Everything is layered.

reply to post by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

Im not here to argue.....But allow me to inform you, there weren't enough trees, hemp, or man power to erect those monuments that way.

Hans: Actually there seems to have been lots of it around however it should be pointed out that moving big heavy stones didn’t happen every day – it did use up a lot of resources. However how did you determine your declaration above?

Sorry. I know its hard to believe that evolution and history of mankind is NOT linear, but hey the evidence stands.

Hans: yes it does – who says its linear – time moves in one direction but civilizations come and go

You guys swear they used torches and lamps when there is no evidence of soot of any kind.

Hans: They covered the roof with textile or just mud, the soot collected there and they removed it – pretty simple. The AE also used a seed oil that produces very little soot...edited to add this was castor see oil

People have a hard time accepting facts. There are glyph's of light bulbs. The scoffers will say yeah right, but they have even been tested.

Hans: Yes I have noticed that. Iif you go for literal interpretation then those bulbs are bigger than human beings.
The hieroglyph around that image explain what the image represents

who knows what they had that we haven't discovered.

Hans: Yes what might be out there?

Really break down the pyramids. The 'granite' that is placed precisely within the kings chamber, They are aligned with the cardinal points before the invention of the compass, I could go on for hours.

Hans: they aligned it at the start - the pyramids themselves are oriented in that way so unless they were going to twist the internal arrangement the inside too will be oriented

As for the obelisk correct me if I'm wrong. They cut it into pieces just like when the moved the valley( correct me again if im wrong). These obelisk and statues were erected and cut precisely out of one piece originally. We still think the bent pyramid was an accident.LOL. We still don't have a clue in my humble opinion because it was deliberate.

Hans: Not quite sure what your point is could you rephrase please?

Look at the degrees. When we study Kemet(egypt) from the inside out, the records show it was either quartz or diamond at the top which to me is amazing. I bet you guys think this was for decoration or ceremonial purposes,huh?? Wrong again. What is even more fascinating, no one even questions or understands the foundation of the pyramids. I'm not talking about the encoded math formulas within the pyramids, I am talking about the pyramidal structure that supports the visible side. Oh wait, you aren't going to talk about that because napoleon or Zahi and the others haven't witnessed it. Right!??!!?

Hans: ??? other than it being a tomb built in a cemetary and serving as a center for Pharoah-god worship....

...snip......the creatures that evolve from each other should NOT exist simultaneously.

Hans: Ah they don’t - I presume you thinking that HSS evolved from Chimpanzees, a common Creationist strawman? They didn’t we and they evolved from a common ancestor many millions of years ago

Originally posted by Hanslune
Hi guys

These little gold tokens are from the Quimbaya culture (Columbia) not Moche or Inca. They were probably made between the 700 AD to 1000 AD and perhaps up to the arrival of the Spanish.

Most appear to be representations of demons, flying fish and insects

Ah, Hans -- you beat me to it!

I've seen them in the museums in Costa Rica -- and I've seen a LOT of them (not just one). Put in the context of "here's a whole heaping bunch (over 200) of them" the idea that they're aircraft just... well, it doesn't fly. They are insects, birds, fish (haven't seen the demons one but have seen birds and fish along with insects.) Many of them have the antennas, claws, etc.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Hanslune
Hi guys

These little gold tokens are from the Quimbaya culture (Columbia) not Moche or Inca. They were probably made between the 700 AD to 1000 AD and perhaps up to the arrival of the Spanish.

Most appear to be representations of demons, flying fish and insects

Ah, Hans -- you beat me to it!

I've seen them in the museums in Costa Rica -- and I've seen a LOT of them (not just one). Put in the context of "here's a whole heaping bunch (over 200) of them" the idea that they're aircraft just... well, it doesn't fly. They are insects, birds, fish (haven't seen the demons one but have seen birds and fish along with insects.) Many of them have the antennas, claws, etc.

muhahahaha; some decades ago when the museum was refurbished or rededicated I got a book from them that had great photos of that collection.

Concentration on one out of many is always a good way to run astray, I think it is in week 11 that young archaeologists are taken into the darken room and the the breaded guy hits you with an Atlatl until you swear never to cherry pick data - it's usually after the vase ceremony, where you stomp on an Atlantean vase and pronounce, 'it doesn't exist'.....

Yeah demons is my interpretation of a thing with wings, claws and eyes that look like they should belong to a bad vampire movie character

I think you may have gotten some information from a website that's making up stuff.

Originally posted by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS
The story of Horus is remarkably similar to Christ

I'm pretty good at reading the Bible and I do NOT remember Jesus' father (Joseph) being a god and his mother Mary being the wife and a goddess. I don't remember Joseph being killed by his evil uncle and Mary being chased into the swamps and Jesus hatching out of an egg and Jesus flying from his birthplace to the horizon. I don't remember Mary trying to resurrect Joseph and Jesus' evil uncle cutting Joseph into 13 pieces and throwing them into the river. I don't remember Mary resurrecting Joseph and Joseph becoming the lord of the underworld while Jesus goes on to claim his birthright as a god and fights his evil uncle until Yahweh forgives Jesus' Evil Uncle and gives Jesus the inheritance from Joseph while Jesus' Evil Uncle sort of reforms and sits next to Yahweh. Nor do I remember Jesus having four sons.

All of the above is true about Horus, however.

and the Kemetic (egyptian) people even had a word that is very similar which is Kares which is loosely translated as enlightened, annointed.

Actually, the word is 'Hekeneut' (you can check the dictionaries for this one... usually given as Hknwt)

With our strongest nuclear powered cranes we still, to this day can not move some of the blocks used to construct the great pyramid at Giza.

1) Cranes aren't nuclear powered
2) We can move the Space Shuttle and lift it onto its crawler. The Space Shuttle weighs 4,400,000 pounds. The largest stone block in Giza weighs 1,765,200 pounds

They did NOT have our cranes or our supposed sophisticated tech and yet they achieved things we can't even wrap our mind around.

This statement is often made on websites where the writer has NO experience with engines, cranes or construction.

*and no insect has wings on the bottom. So lets get that one out the way

Sharks, however, do. And if you look at ALL of the ones they're identifying as "aircraft" you can see that many of them have sharklike mouths and teeth. Some have "rays" (fins) that are pretty detailed. Several have gill representations. They didn't make exact copies -- each piece is individualistic. But if you look at ALL of them (not just 4 or 8) then it's clear they are representations of animals.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Yeah demons is my interpretation of a thing with wings, claws and eyes that look like they should belong to a bad vampire movie character

edit on 5/10/11 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

Ah.

Those, young Grasshopper, are birds. I own two replicas (cast from originals) and when you have your hands on them and turn them over in your fingers and see the feathers and beak and talons (raptor like... two front, two rear) you'll see they're birds.

(these are copies of items in the museum and were bought at the museum store... so I saw, looked closely, and bought the copy after seeing the original.)

Originally posted by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS
...what you failed to include was the simple fact the 'craft' is the perfect shape for flying at high velocities. If you were to do the kinds of test that creates an air colorful air current you will see a HUGE difference between your lawnmower and the artifact.

I "failed" to include?

So, you are telling me that it was a "perfect aerodynamic design," complete with a cut across the nose, four large vertical cylinders (on the original, a stinger on the model) stick-up before an absurdly large tail fin?

And you believed them?

Uh-huh.

We are seeing our own culture in an object created by another culture, just as Christians might see a Cross in an Egyptian anch, in that they have similarities in appearance, but very different meanings by intent.

I believe it is foolish to believe these things aren't connected.

Oh, you ought not have used that f-word-- down to name calling already, are we?

Well, I choose the w-word for you-- Wrong. I did not pull that example out of thin air-- I pulled that example because it is popular but not historically accurate.

If one has a proper understanding of history and how things work, one can realize how interconnected the conscious mind is. One might see a cross and one might see an ankh, if one was to look close enough, there is a common thread present that may have been transmitted by the way of philosophy. The story of Horus is remarkably similar to Christ, and the Kemetic (egyptian) people even had a word that is very similar which is Kares which is loosely translated as enlightened, annointed.

The operatives are "proper understanding of history."

But you were not addressing history, you are addressing a metaphysical "ground of being" hypothesis about symbols.

Back to the subject, because the claim was not made that the item was a symbol for flight-- the claim was made that it was proof that the civilization had an understanding of aerodynamics.

Back to the surface.
Do not assume we as a species are at our acme. We are in fact doing things way backwards. Really think about it we literally waste resources just to reach space when there are plenty of less expensive ways. This has to be the most primitive way ever.

"Do not assume?" Tell you what-- don't assume I assume.

but nothing survived of a factory producing the needed propulsion systems?

With our strongest nuclear powered cranes we still, to this day can not move some of the blocks used to construct the great pyramid at Giza. They did NOT have our cranes or our supposed sophisticated tech and yet they achieved things we can't even wrap our mind around.

I knew it. Here we go.

We have nuclear powered cranes, do we?

Everyone knows the Egyptians used flying pigs to lift the blocks. I even have seen photographic evidence of such a pig placing the Battersea Power Station near London.

I have been waiting-- all of three days-- for the chance to use this quote...

Paraphrasing G. K. Chesterton...

"Professor Gubbins belongs to the old school of scientific criticism, and cannot but strike us as limited in this age of wireless telegraphy and nuclear powered cranes."; or "Doubtless we should be as much surprised at the deeds of our descendants as would an Ancient Briton at a motor-car or a nuclear powered cranes, or any such common sight in our streets."

Originally posted by Tuned Agent
I'll bite...and another response.

Your logic fails you. An RC plane disguised as a lawnmower does not mow the lawn...but it does fly. Try that with an actual Sears and Roebuck.

The ancient astronaut theory will still be debated, and your Op has done absolutely nothing for your debunking cause. Fair enough?

Nope. Not fair. The claim was that the mock-up flying "proved" the culture understood aerodynamics. The lawnmower video exposes the fallacy of the hypothesis.

My logic is impeccable.