When Occupy Wall Street Accomplishes what You Were Not Willing to Fight For

SO, what all of these people with "plans" don't realize is,
OWS NEEDS YOU! The point is to give all of us with "plans" a say in government.

What in the WORLD is so hard to understand about this guys?
I really feel like nobody read the OP.

reply to post by munkey66


Once your paycheck clears, remove the cash keeping only the minimum amount required in the account. Use cash to pay your bills and make your purchases. If you have savings to invest, buy some precious metals.

BURN the credit cards and let the banks know you have done it. It will take some effort, do what you can.

Originally posted by Convicted

Originally posted by Raivan31

Originally posted by Convicted
reply to post by Raivan31

 

LOL, there is this thing called cash.
You should look into it.

ok, good point.
What gives cash it's value?
Who controls the aforementioned institution?

The value of cash is more or less controlled by the relative faith hat people, companies, government, and institutions have in the government that issued the cash. In the greeks case, and part of why they are screwed is that they dont have their own currency. They are on the EURO. If they had their own currency they could inflate their way out of the problem, but since they are on the euro they cannot and places like Germany and France are doing relatively well compared to Greece, which compounds the problem.

Think about the repercussions of massive inflation.

The way in which 'Faith' in the value of a given currency is earned is through the growth and actions of the massive corporations, When the corporations fail the goverment steps in to bail them out because the goverment, like in greece, relies more so on public faith in the value of it's currency then the publics faith in the goverment. When the value of a given countries currency falls flat the goverment can no longer maintain control.

Are you seeing the trend that i have issue with here?
It's the frame work of how our Modern nations are structure that i find faulty, and this frame work relies entirely on the value of the currency which in turn relies on the strength of the economy which in turn relies on the strength of the various corporations that make up the economy.

So who is really running your country?
Does voting or even the fundamental democratic process, whatever it's incarnation, really have any power?

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by munkey66

 

Once your paycheck clears, remove the cash keeping only the minimum amount required in the account. Use cash to pay your bills and make your purchases. If you have savings to invest, buy some precious metals.

BURN the credit cards and let the banks know you have done it. It will take some effort, do what you can.

Been doing it for years. Hasn't helped.

Originally posted by Raivan31

Originally posted by Convicted

Originally posted by Raivan31

Originally posted by Convicted
reply to post by Raivan31

 

LOL, there is this thing called cash.
You should look into it.

ok, good point.
What gives cash it's value?
Who controls the aforementioned institution?

The value of cash is more or less controlled by the relative faith hat people, companies, government, and institutions have in the government that issued the cash. In the greeks case, and part of why they are screwed is that they dont have their own currency. They are on the EURO. If they had their own currency they could inflate their way out of the problem, but since they are on the euro they cannot and places like Germany and France are doing relatively well compared to Greece, which compounds the problem.

Think about the repercussions of massive inflation.

The way in which 'Faith' in the value of a given currency is earned is through the growth and actions of the massive corporations, When the corporations fail the goverment steps in to bail them out because the goverment, like in greece, relies more so on public faith in the value of it's currency then the publics faith in the goverment. When the value of a given countries currency falls flat the goverment can no longer maintain control.

Are you seeing the trend that i have issue with here?
It's the frame work of how our Modern nations are structure that i find faulty, and this frame work relies entirely on the value of the currency which in turn relies on the strength of the economy which in turn relies on the strength of the various corporations that make up the economy.

So who is really running your country?
Does voting or even the fundamental democratic process, whatever it's incarnation, really have any power?

Where to start. Its not just faith in massive corporations. Its faith in how the government functions, how it manages its money, its level of debt/income. Its also a factor of all business in the country not just massive corporations. Its also a factor of the productivity of the people of that country. Greeks have a few problems in that area.

How else would you like the world to value the currency of a country? On how cute its people are, or if we just feel like we should cut them a deal? The only way you can value a currency accurately is on its relative financial success or failure. Can you thnk of another way that is a better guage?

Sure voting has power. Here in the USA we elected a clueless idiot and now we are paying for it. Though, I do see that people who have money to support/lobby/bribe politicians have power too. I think this could be addressed in two ways. One force politicians finances to be audited quarterly. Two, if they get caught being bribed or taking favors, they get executed for treason.

reply to post by Raivan31


It may if millions of people do the same thing.

Stop and consider if we all stopped using credit to make our purchases. BOA will be losing millions with that little cap of a 21 cent usage charge for debit cards. Imagine the cut into their corporate bonuses when they lose the 2 to 3% from merchants, and your annual fee and interest. Financial Armageddon for the banks.

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by Raivan31

 

It may if millions of people do the same thing.

Stop and consider if we all stopped using credit to make our purchases. BOA will be losing millions with that little cap of a 21 cent usage charge for debit cards. Imagine the cut into their corporate bonuses when they lose the 2 to 3% from merchants, and your annual fee and interest. Financial Armageddon for the banks.

I agree that this measure would improve circumstances, in theory. The problem is that our over reliance on such institutions would mean that a trickle down effect would result in the average joe being hurt even worse as the ones at the top begin adding those fees and charges to other areas.

The problem isn't merely credit. Credit is just a symptom of a massivly faulty system, a system that requires more money then is being generated. The system relies on credit, sure, but doesn't that suggest that there is a fundamental problem in the system itself? I would equate the system to a heroin/crack addict, merely changing the delivery system for the horse/crack (lol horse crack, but i digress) is not going to fix the addiction.

reply to post by Raivan31


Good point, but the problem is not the system. Its people spending more than they make. Look at our grandparents. They saved. They paid cash for things. They didnt have big houses or two new cars or an iphone or cable or designer clothes. They lived off of what they could afford and they saved. So maybe for this system to work, people have to actually act responsibly.

reply to post by Convicted


Convicted: Well that kinda outlines my overall problem with the state of things. namely, what we choose to place value and faith in.

I am suggesting that currency and economy take a back seat to the value of the people in each respective country.
To continue doing things in the manner in which we are suggest's that the outcome is a homogenous culture throughout the entire planet.

It's easy to suggest that greek people are lazy but it would be more accurate to say that the greek people place there value in different things like family (for example)

The current system only works for people who prioritize money over everything else and the reality of the world is that most people have other priorities but in order to facilitate these priorities they have to re-prioritise which in turn forces them to change from what their own culture represents to what someone else's does.

How would the average American citizen react if forced to adopt the culture of another nation and forgo their own?

Too much to ask of anyone.

reply to post by munkey66


what the heck is a pay packet? If you get paid with pay packets then ask your job to pay you with a check or cash... if they cant do that then those protestors should get new jobs.

Its like a VEGAN working at a burger place and expecting the burger place to change to a vegetarian menu for them to work there.

Originally posted by Convicted
reply to post by Raivan31

 

Good point, but the problem is not the system. Its people spending more than they make. Look at our grandparents. They saved. They paid cash for things. They didnt have big houses or two new cars or an iphone or cable or designer clothes. They lived off of what they could afford and they saved. So maybe for this system to work, people have to actually act responsibly.

Well stated, I agree with that sentiment but i also want to add that responsibility rests on every shoulder not just the average consumer. The producers of the 'Consumer society' need to act responsibly as well.

Temptation is a sickness that everyone is vulnerable to.

Edit: I should add that despite my previous statements i am still of the opinion that the system relies on credit and would not function (for want of a better word) without it. Which is why i would like to see the system change, but one man can't do that, hence the protests.

reply to post by Raivan31


LOL, welcome to the real world. Look I would love to hang out all day with my family or goof off with my friends, but you gotta work. Sometimes life choses your priorities for you to some degree. People have to work if they want to be able to have food, shelter, etc.. Its always been that way and it will always be that way. If you prioritize other things over money then you cant really complain when you have lots of them and little money as it was your choice.

reply to post by kozmo


Hmmm...communism , the boogie man . Communism is a natural state of being in the spiritual sense as all parts are centred around the Whole , working in a loving unison with the Whole . Spirituial communism .

What we have here on our mundane plane of existences is the exact reversial of the effects that has on the parts . Here if we worship the whole that was set up as Government by anyone or anything , we are in big trouble as that Whole wishes to exploit is smaller memebers to feed itself in a glutinous way .
The Whole of the mundane world communism is a selfish vampire that seeks what IT sees as a limited resource . your energy , the energy of all living creatures and the energy of all non living materials . like resources / commoddities

Originally posted by Convicted
reply to post by Raivan31

 

LOL, welcome to the real world. Look I would love to hang out all day with my family or goof off with my friends, but you gotta work. Sometimes life choses your priorities for you to some degree. People have to work if they want to be able to have food, shelter, etc.. Its always been that way and it will always be that way. If you prioritize other things over money then you cant really complain when you have lots of them and little money as it was your choice.

Well this is a talking point that we are probably not going to agree with. The reason i don't agree with this is because i feel that most of the average persons time and energy is spent propping up a system that exists for itself rather then for the people, as spending time with friends and family doesn't generally generate a lot of cash it is never going to be the desired activity of the system.

The 'real world' is whatever we choose to make it. And a lot of people around the world are attempting in their own flawed way, to make it something better.

Of course we have to work to live, thats always been true. The problem is that most of the work we do is to support the system which doesn't allow us alot of time to live.

reply to post by Raivan31


LOL, support what system? The evil system that provides your electicity? The evil system that provides your water? The evil system that provides your phone?


If you dont like making money for someone else then start your own business and make it for yourself.

The only bill I pay that I didnt choose or have control over is my tax bill.

Originally posted by Anusuia
reply to post by kozmo

 

Hmmm...communism , the boogie man . Communism is a natural state of being in the spiritual sense as all parts are centred around the Whole , working in a loving unison with the Whole . Spirituial communism .

What we have here on our mundane plane of existences is the exact reversial of the effects that has on the parts . Here if we worship the whole that was set up as Government by anyone or anything , we are in big trouble as that Whole wishes to exploit is smaller memebers to feed itself in a glutinous way .
The Whole of the mundane world communism is a selfish vampire that seeks what IT sees as a limited resource . your energy , the energy of all living creatures and the energy of all non living materials . like resources / commoddities

Well although you waxed a little spiritual there, all esoteric connotations aside. yes thats pretty much the problem. I hate to use the matrix as an example but thats pretty much what the current system is doing to us, namely, using us as batteries to generate something that on a fundamental level doesn't benefit us simply as human beings.

Originally posted by Convicted
reply to post by Raivan31

 

LOL, support what system? The evil system that provides your electicity? The evil system that provides your water? The evil system that provides your phone?


If you dont like making money for someone else then start your own business and make it for yourself.

The only bill I pay that I didnt choose or have control over is my tax bill.

edit on 5-10-2011 by Convicted because: (no reason given)

Like i said, we are probably not going to agree over this one as we clearly have very different outlooks on the way things are.

The system doesn't really provide my electricity, in reality most of the electricity being produced fuels the system. The fact that i make use of some of that electricity is mainly so that i am able to also support the system.

Chicken or the egg? what came first? Humanity or the current system?
The system isn't evil, that would suggest that it is alive and has thoughts and feelings, The system is merely a structure that certain people use to further their own primarily selfish goals.

Edit/add: I can't stay on here any longer as i have things to do, gotta start my day. but it's been a really invigorating debate.

reply to post by Raivan31


LOL, no you pay for the electricity that you use. You also pay because they had to build a power plant and a grid to deliver it. You also pay for part of their cost of doing business and a markup so they can make a profit. You also pay tax and the cost of regulation for that electricity.

We all have alternatives. You could buy a diesel generator or use solar or wind power, but that will cost you far more than the efficient system they have built to deliver large amounts of energy. However, you are free at any time to find a better way or a way that makes you feel more fulfilled to provide electicity to your house. You could even go all unibomber and just not have any electric at all.

reply to post by Raivan31


Have a great day! I enjoyed our debate as well.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Don't work for the UN. I'm 19.... Lol

Andd, I only use logic to come to my personal beliefs on how things should work, no belief systems or political ideologies. Such things get you into a mess of things.