Efforts to Defund or Ban Infant Male Circumcision Are Unfounded and Potentially Harmful, Experts Arg

I would never condone cutting off someones penis, rather a small piece or the whole thing.

I will try to put this succintly. Uncirced penises have a tendency to smell bad. Sometimes, really really bad. And sometimes you can smell it through their pants. Perhaps it is because they weren't cleaned properly. But as a women, I avoid them.

ATS Pro Male Circumcision Statement (1)

Originally posted by sunqueen30
Uncirced penises have a tendency to smell bad...as a women, I avoid them.

Pro Female Circumcision Statement (2)

It keeps her smelling so sweet that her husband will be pleased

(1) www.abovetopsecret.com...
(2) Erroneous Belief Systems Underlying Female Genital Mutilation in Sub-Saharan Africa and Male Neonatal Circumcision in the United States: a Brief Report Updated

Originally posted by nusnus
...the non circumcised...I wouldn't touch it with a stick if you know what I mean.

Originally posted by nusnus
I'm married

So we'll assume married to a circumcised man who is unable to give you 1st hand experiential accounts of having an uncircumcised penis?

Originally posted by nusnus
...I talk to guys about it, oh and I read.

Perhaps your descriptions match the experiences of your friends, however many in here report contrary experiences.

This may highlight that, while tempting, absolute assumptions may be misleading on our wonderfully diverse planet

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by peck420

 

I admire the lengths are which parents are going for this, but you're ignoring a lot of research and a taking a good deal of risk.

This was published three days ago:

www.cbsnews.com...

In the report - published in the Oct. 5 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association - the doctors highlight recent research suggesting that circumcision has life-long health benefits.

And this is from the CDC: www.cdc.gov...

Male circumcision has been associated with a lower risk for HIV infection in international observational studies and in three randomized controlled clinical trials.

Also, tell me how it goes for your boys later on when they start developing more urinal tract infections.

edit on 8-10-2011 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-10-2011 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

This is not a new study, it's a new review of principally 3 RCT studies done in AFRICA SIX YEARS AGO! This is obviously a push by the medical community to try to keep govt. funding in place for circ surgery. No new evidence, no new data, just a rehash of old controversial data at a time that people are waking up and spoiling the white-coat gravy train:

With 2 new states recently joining 16 others in eliminating Medicaid insurance for male circumcision, possible ballot initiatives to ban male circumcision, and the long-awaited American Academy of Pediatrics male circumcision policy statement, there is a need to evaluate the medical risks and benefits of male circumcision, particularly in light of recent medical evidence.

The studies are all highly questionable if you care to take a look at the methodology. Rebuttals here www.futuremedicine.com... and here: www.circumstitions.com...

The other link you posted from the CDC is referencing the same biased and faulty studies! Did you click the links and at least scan your references?

And in Africa, circumcision is a significant killer of babies and children: www.circumstitions.com...

In regards to Urinary Tract Infections, here's the real information: www.circumstitions.com...
Using the pro-circ study that is most touted as proof circs can lower UTI rates, we see that about 1 in 200 circs MAY have contributed to lower infection rates. Bear in mind, that to prevent one infant getting a mostly harmless, easily treatable infection, you must irreversibly remove useful healthy tissue from 200 penises. How does that make any sense at all?

Also, tell me how it goes for your boys later on when they start developing more urinal tract infections.

UTI are most common during the first year of life. That's what your referenced studies are talking about. Did you read any of the papers in the links you posted?

reply to post by nusnus


nusnus-"whereas the clitoris is a %100 satisfaction guarantee situation"

Then explain to me why some women with a fully functional clitoris suffer from anorgasmia.

Anorgasmia

reply to post by RogerT


That's some good info, I can understand how the foreskin is part of the sexual apparatus which has many nerves designed for pleasure; but speaking just for myself, as a cut male I can testify that my entire shaft, my scrotum, and almost my entire groin are all pleasurably sensitive in the right situation.

Many other areas of the body as well, after all, the largest erogenous zone on the human body is the skin, and the largest sexual organ of all is the brain.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by StevenDye

 

You're watering the argument. I'm not the one who's whining about the foreskin containing the most nerve endings. I mean, if you're going to end up defending your foreskin like THAT I as a female will take the opportunity to say that male of the species, who have been scientifically proven to think of sex at least every 5 seconds, need to have LESS sex drive.

That was a very old study and was obtained from flawed data, the more recent studies show that the male of the species doesn't think about sex any more often then the female of the species does. It is just easier to tell when the male is excited.

From an evolutionary standpoint, the foreskin is extra piece of skin. It has no aesthetic value. It might be your norm, my argument is not with those who think its the norm, my argument is with the men who have been living in cultures who already perform circumcision and all of a sudden decided not to have it cause, well, they have issues with the religious background it comes from. Its not about the foreskin anymore. The majority of men who think its wrong are feeding the atheist propaganda who supports it like its mutilation. Hello...what on earth is tattoo then? make up?! Why don't they go against that then? Its not about the foreskin, its not about the mutilation, it sure as heck isn't about the sex drive. Its simple propaganda.

Well...I take that back. Its probably about the sex drive too....geeze.

edit on 8-10-2011 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

I won't argue the evolutionary point at all, cause that's an argument that can't really be proven one way or the other. Many people, male and female find aesthetic value in a foreskin, as well as a circ'd penis. I happen to know some people who feel the same way about tattoos, piercings, and make up as they do about circumcision, very against. The only way that I see propaganda is from the groups that don't argue from a point of no research, just emotion.

One last thing, if you are offended by a male sex drive, then I have a simple solution for you.
Don't have sex with males.

reply to post by Bluesma


Unfortunately you are very correct about many American's views on touching.

It probably comes from the strong Puritan background we have in this country.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by Bluesma

 

This cleaning you speak of, this is how they do circumcision where I come from. Its the removal of like 1 cm of foreskin, and leaving more skin on the back of the gland then on the tip.

Its strange cause you say he's not circumcised, sounds to me like he is.

Décallotté is a French term pertaining to the proper care of the penis while the boy is still an infant to toddler, it involves the progressive rolling back of the foreskin to ensure proper separation of the foreskin from the glans penis as well as stretching of the opening of the foreskin so the glans can more easily and comfortably protrude outside the foreskin. It also makes it easier to properly maintain penile health and general cleanliness. It us usually performed during bathing of the child and is used as an opportunity to teach the boy how to properly clean himself.

One common side effect is that the foreskin remains behind the glans the majority of the time.

Bluesma, please correct me if I missed anything.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by peck420

 

Yes we make all kinds of decisions on our children's bodies don't we?

Its none of anyones business what other people do their childs bodies unless it harms the kid. Circumcision does not harm children. The end.

Would you have liked your parents to have had your clitoral hood removed shortly after your birth, it is an unnecessary piece of skin after all, and by your logic it would not harm you.

Circumcision leads to Zionism - the statistical proof is overwheming.

Virtually all Zionists are circumcised!

Zionism is racism

...

therefore make circumcision illegal.

Seriously - the Jewish lobby in the USA is doing everything it can to keep the barbaric practice of circumcision legal.

Do the two doctors who carried out the "study" go to the same synagogue?

Originally posted by Bluesma
I suspect the problem lies in the Americans highly sexualized associations of the human body, in which even breast feeding is seen as something to hide, lest it stimulate observers. Americans may be reluctant to talk about or condone socially the touching of the childs genitals because any contact with certain body parts is immediately associated with sex.

Well said.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by Maslo

 

Look, if you're going to be against mutilation, you can't just be against child mutilation and be for adult mutilation, it doesn't make sense.

Makes perfect sense, if you give an ADULT person the right to decide for his own body. (Unless the person is proven mentally ill.)

Circumcision has been going on for centuries for a very good reason. Its a bunch of skin that covers the urinal tract. You have to retract it while you pee. If you're working in hot climates and sweaty conditions, you won't be able to clean it every other hour, its a matter of germs accumulating and causing urinary tract infections and other disgusting things.

That's pretty much total bull***, to be honest. The germs are a problem if they get INSIDE the urinary tract.. Some (possible) random germs (which are ALL OVER THE SKIN/BODY anyways) between the head of the penis and foreskin doesn't do a # during a few hours or a day.

I'm from Finland, and in here (as most of the northern/western Europe) circumcision is _very_ rare. Native people are almost never circumcised. I can assure you, a penis with a foreskin doesn't smell or have any "disgusting germs/diseases" as long as you follow the _very basic_ hygiene. Finnish (and scandinavian) boys are taught to wash their genitals (also inside the foreskin) as well as their hair, behind the ear all the other places.. Being a sport instructor I can assure you, the "crotches" of female athletes smell just as bad (or good..) as male after a heavy workout or sweating for other reasons. And so does the crotch of guys without a foreskin.. surprisingly most of the sweat doesn't come from the penis (zomG), it comes from tighs and other muscles. 2-4 drops of urine does nothing compared to the sweat, the smell is pretty terrible anyways. NO matter whether you have your foreskin or not, the possible last drops of urine goes into your underwear anyways. (Also, it helps when boys are educated to wipe the tip of penis with a piece of paper after urinating)

Here are some facts about urine tract infections from Finland. I would think the statistics are pretty much the same for most of the northern Europe. (And yes, we do have pretty hot summers and still we don't have problems during that time)

A) For very young children (

Originally posted by naghammadi
ATS Pro Male Circumcision Statement (1)

Originally posted by sunqueen30
Uncirced penises have a tendency to smell bad...as a women, I avoid them.

Pro Female Circumcision Statement (2)

It keeps her smelling so sweet that her husband will be pleased

(1) www.abovetopsecret.com...
(2) Erroneous Belief Systems Underlying Female Genital Mutilation in Sub-Saharan Africa and Male Neonatal Circumcision in the United States: a Brief Report Updated

Your argument fails because my comment is based on experience. Which in no way is similar to pro female circumcision statement. I grew up in the Dominican Republic where most males are not circumcised. And I can tell you from experience that a lot of those men had an obvious fishy smell emanating from their privates. Same smell from uncirced american males as well. I imagine that droplets of urine and other fluids are released into the hood and "ferment" or whatever word is appropriate in this context. Instead of the fluids being absorbed by underwear, it festers in a moist and warm seal. Perfect recipe for foul smell.

Originally posted by sunqueen30

Your argument fails because my comment is based on experience. Which in no way is similar to pro female circumcision statement. I grew up in the Dominican Republic where most males are not circumcised. And I can tell you from experience that a lot of those men had an obvious fishy smell emanating from their privates. Same smell from uncirced american males as well. I imagine that droplets of urine and other fluids are released into the hood and "ferment" or whatever word is appropriate in this context. Instead of the fluids being absorbed by underwear, it festers in a moist and warm seal. Perfect recipe for foul smell.

And I'm sorry but yours fails because the smell you describe is one I have most definitly noticed on some women. In fact walking down the fresh fish area at a supermarket and telling any girls you are with to close their legs seems to be a fairly common joke over here.


It is also one I as an uncircumcised male have never had a problem with as long as I wash regularly. On the few occasions it wasn't possible for 2 or three days (camping) there could well have been some sort of natural smell building, but lets be honest. By then the smell of beo would have covered that up.

If it was a big problem I can assure you that more males would get themselves circumcised, they would suffer the pain rather than face the humiliation of a girl wrinkling her nose in disgust.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by Maslo

 

Look, if you're going to be against mutilation, you can't just be against child mutilation and be for adult mutilation, it doesn't make sense.

Circumcision has been going on for centuries for a very good reason. Its a bunch of skin that covers the urinal tract. You have to retract it while you pee. If you're working in hot climates and sweaty conditions, you won't be able to clean it every other hour, its a matter of germs accumulating and causing urinary tract infections and other disgusting things.

Man has found a way to prevent this by removing a tiny bit of skin from the tip of the penis. And since doing it while the child is small helps healing, and the child won't even remember what happened, they do it at a young age in the US.

Where I come from, they do it at the age of 10 or 12. Its like a trial of manhood to withstand the pain. Its all about the culture. But what all of these cultures have seen is that HOT HUMID climates cause infections.

And as a female, I really don't like thinking about how many times my husband has washed his penis before we had sex. Its kind of disgusting really.



HELLOOO CERVICAL CANCER?!!!! If any of you females are reading this, and you still see a skin on the tip of your guys penis....ABORT!

www.uptodate.com...

edit on 8-10-2011 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

First off: Its a bit presumptuous of you or anyone to claim they know the effects it has on infants.
Second: Our bodies are designed to resist disease and infection AS THEY ARE. If you don't want bad hygiene, clean it. Why should it matter how many times it gets cleaned?! This, to me, just allows an excuse to be lazy. Personal Hygiene should NEVER be something anyone is lazy about.
Third: You are a women, not a man. You have NO CLUE as to how it feels to and not to have foreskin. There are nerve endings that create an array of feelings that coincide with love making.

I believe the main point to this entire thread is: It is unfair (and in certain views inhumane) to give a Circ. to a newborn child who cannot make the sound decision on their own.

If you want to be with someone who is circ. by all means go for it. Leaves the "real" penis' for us real women...

Have a great day ATS!

Originally posted by StevenDye

Originally posted by sunqueen30

Your argument fails because my comment is based on experience. Which in no way is similar to pro female circumcision statement. I grew up in the Dominican Republic where most males are not circumcised. And I can tell you from experience that a lot of those men had an obvious fishy smell emanating from their privates. Same smell from uncirced american males as well. I imagine that droplets of urine and other fluids are released into the hood and "ferment" or whatever word is appropriate in this context. Instead of the fluids being absorbed by underwear, it festers in a moist and warm seal. Perfect recipe for foul smell.

And I'm sorry but yours fails because the smell you describe is one I have most definitly noticed on some women. In fact walking down the fresh fish area at a supermarket and telling any girls you are with to close their legs seems to be a fairly common joke over here.


It is also one I as an uncircumcised male have never had a problem with as long as I wash regularly. On the few occasions it wasn't possible for 2 or three days (camping) there could well have been some sort of natural smell building, but lets be honest. By then the smell of beo would have covered that up.

If it was a big problem I can assure you that more males would get themselves circumcised, they would suffer the pain rather than face the humiliation of a girl wrinkling her nose in disgust.

So just because some women can smell bad as well my argument fails? That doesn't even make any sense. How can an opinion based on personal experience fail? I agree that woman can smell down there as well. Which is why I dont sleep with women either. If men truly knew how gross vaginas can be, they would probably not be so quick to go down there either.

To say that your experience trumps mine seems like an ignorant way to make an argument. Never did I say ALL uncirced men smell. Nor do I believe that they all smell bad. I said A LOT of men I HAVE MET that are uncircumcised have smelled bad. And now I have chosen to not sleep with men that aren't circumcised because of that.

And a lot of men do decide to get the surgery done later in life. www.circinfo.net...

You seem to take the negative comments about this issue too personally. If you don't smell bad, then it's not about you.

Originally posted by sunqueen30
So just because some women can smell bad as well my argument fails? That doesn't even make any sense. How can an opinion based on personal experience fail? I agree that woman can smell down there as well. Which is why I dont sleep with women either. If men truly knew how gross vaginas can be, they would probably not be so quick to go down there either.

To say that your experience trumps mine seems like an ignorant way to make an argument. Never did I say ALL uncirced men smell. Nor do I believe that they all smell bad. I said A LOT of men I HAVE MET that are uncircumcised have smelled bad. And now I have chosen to not sleep with men that aren't circumcised because of that.

And a lot of men do decide to get the surgery done later in life. www.circinfo.net...

You seem to really take the negative comments about this issue personally. Everyone has different experiences and base their opinions on them.

No, that is true it didn't make much sense, but it is also the way you opened your response to another poster and it didn't make sense when you used it either. I was simply following the way you responded to show that personal views don't make someone elses views invalid.

Of course what you said about men smelling is true of some men, as it is true of some women...but only if they don't follow proper hygeine. However, to use it as a reason for male circumcision whilst being against any form of operation of the female genitalia IS a failure in a way considering females 'can' suffer from the same problems, that is all I was trying to point out.

That guy was comparing my dislike of uncircumcised penises due to the smell to false propaganda regarding female circumcision in Africa. Circumcised males do not develop the specific fishy smell I have been referring to. Female circumcision in Africa (which include removal of the lips and clitoris) does not affect smell in any way. Which makes that argument incorrect. Not because it is someone else's view, but because the context of comparison was incorrect.

Nor was I using it as an argument for male circumcision. Everyone should be allowed to choose what they want for themselves. That includes boys with their penises and myself with the kind I prefer.

Again, you misread what I wrote. Actually, did you even bother to read what I wrote, or just skimmed over it and pulled what you wanted out of it? Because you have been wrong about every argument you have brought against what I wrote. Rather than responding to what I wrote, you responded to your idea of what someone who doesn't like uncircumcised penises would write. And that IS a MAJOR FAIL.