Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

Originally posted by silo13
Missouri Woman's Phone Tied to Baby Lisa's Disappearance

Another 'phone' video. Exposing lies. Making more assumptions. Just another mouthpiece but worth a listen.

peace

Curious; one allegedly has a person living in a home, claiming on national tv, that the home they live in is a meth house.... So where is the police raid on the house? A dog "hits on a dead body" ( that plainly isn't there) and it justifies a 17 hour search.... A resident claims this address is a meth house, and it is an opinion shared by the "locals" and where is the raid? Meth is a small item, and a search for meth would give one an excuse to search the address in very fine detail, with "dogs" trained to search for both drugs and bodies.

But of course it is not apparently done, why?
Could the answer to that be, because it doesn't fit with their pet theory, and so it is NOT worth pursuing?
There is an opportunity here, to turn up the heat, to apply pressure, is it being taken?
Does the choice NOT to pursue this, help to find Lisa, or does it hinder the search for Lisa?
Is this just another opportunity (however slight) ignored?

Does the choice to ignore this opportunity carry with it an implied accusation of the guilt of the parents? Do we not have a national news program suggesting this address is a drug house?
And just what is being done, about it?

Either one leaves no stones unturned in the pursuit of finding baby Lisa, or one selectively picks and chooses which stones to turn over and examine. This isn't rocket science, it is a rather simple choice here. either the police know where Lisa is, or they don't. Either the police are leaving no stones unturned, or they aren't! Either the police have done everything possible, or they haven't! If that was your child out there, abducted would you want to believe that the police where doing everything possible? Wouldn't you want to hope that the recovery of your child, didn't depend on stroking some cops ego?

At just what point, do we the public have a right to ask why?
Now while, there is yet a chance to recover Lisa?
In a year? In five years?
Never?
Does the status of the "profession" make their actions unquestionable?
Do they simply get the "right" to be unquestioned?

If this was Beyonce's child, would the police be permitted after less that 45 days to throw up their hands, and hint that they had done everything possible? That at this point the "only" option was to wait for YEARS!?!

Would the police be permitted to assign blame, and prove guilt, at a cost too finding the child? Or would the focus be on finding the child, the infant and would we assign blame after the infant is recovered and we know ALL the facts? Once again this baby did not get to choose it's parents, she is not guilty of not cooperating with the police, what about Lisa rights?

reply to post by Dav1d

Is little Lisa a victim of having "bad parents" is she worth less because she chose the wrong parents? Does little Lisa deserve nothing more than a few people hoping that her case was done with the utmost professionalism? Doesn't little Lisa have a right to accountability? Shouldn't those who deem that little Lisa is worth less than 45 days of searching be held accountable? Don't we have a right to know what exactly was done in her name to find her, and when? If not Lisa then when?

I agree with you 100%..so how do you propose they be held accountable? It does send a message out that it is very easy to abduct a child and get away with it.

You have to understand when I say hope.. it is because I want to believe they are trying..for the sake of the child. Please don't jump on me for hoping... and if you feel hope has no value, what do you suggest be done?

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by Dav1d

 

Is little Lisa a victim of having "bad parents" is she worth less because she chose the wrong parents? Does little Lisa deserve nothing more than a few people hoping that her case was done with the utmost professionalism? Doesn't little Lisa have a right to accountability? Shouldn't those who deem that little Lisa is worth less than 45 days of searching be held accountable? Don't we have a right to know what exactly was done in her name to find her, and when? If not Lisa then when?

I agree with you 100%..so how do you propose they be held accountable? It does send a message out that it is very easy to abduct a child and get away with it.

You have to understand when I say hope.. it is because I want to believe they are trying..for the sake of the child. Please don't jump on me for hoping... and if you feel hope has no value, what do you suggest be done?

Gabby, if you feel my words are in anyway attacking you as a person I apologize that was not my intention. Your words inspire my thoughts! I imagine myself looking into little Lisa's eyes, and saying "I hope..." how would I feel, with those eyes looking back into mine? Would I feel like I've done enough?
Would I honestly be able to look into those eyes and tell her you chose the wrong parents, they apparently didn't love you enough, and because they chose NOT to love you, I don't need to care about you.
Could I honestly say that?
I don't think so...
I'm an idea person, I got paid to think..
I like to believe that KCPD has some one reading forums, searching for ideas...
I like to believe that if enough people ask why didn't you do this....
1) that just possiblely someone in KCPD will say hay that's a good question, why didn't we....
a) that just might cause KCPD to try just one of my ideas, or some other idea generated here.
b) that KCPD is not the only LE agency reading here, and perhaps one other LE agency will learn something from the questions asked here. Will create a policy, that will prevent them from following this path.
c) I like to believe that we CAN LEARN from our failures, IF we are honestly willing to examine them, and not simply assume they are the best they can be...
2) I want to honestly be able to look little Lisa in the eyes one day and say I believed in you, Lisa; in your inate worth, and I did more than Simply sit on my butt and hoped...
3) perhaps I'll inspire just one more person to do something more than simply sit on their butt and.....

What can we as a society do? We can attempt to learn from our failures! The first step in that process is asking "WHY" in trying to understand why (this was done) and (that was not done) we can with hindsight evaluate the correctness of those choices.

Are we as a society, content with where the little Lisa Irwin case is?

How many more children will be "LOST" while we simply choose to sit and hope?
As events unfold, and with Sky Metalwala now taken from a SUV time is ticking, the clock is running...
Do we tell Sky Metalwala father sorry we haven't yet waited LONG ENOUGH, to truly see if the KCPD tatics work, give us five or ten years to evaluate our choices in this case, before we make changes in how we handle cases? Give the KCPD time to do there thing, and the local people time to move on, before we examine their choices?

Do we gain strength in hiding things from public view? By doing things in secret, in the dark of the night? Does our country grow strong by choosing to condemn, with out evidence? Has these tatics work for the return of little Lisa? Indeed is the return of little Lisa even the object? What really was the object of this case?
At this point can you or anyone honestly tell me that you believe if just one more person condemns Deborah she will lead us to little Lisa? That the next parent of an unloved child will give that child up for adoption, rather than killing it, because of how Deborah was condemned? Or does all the condemnation of Deborah simply make it just a tiny bit easier to hate? Does it make it "alright" to hate in certain cases? Is that as a nation the direction we wish to go? Is that our hope of the future, to become a nation of haters?

When a child is lost what should be job one?
Should the main focus be on fixing blame, beyond reasonable doubt?!? Or should it be on finding that child as quick as possible? Has it become acceptable to sacrifice the child as long as we can fix blame?
Are we a nation of condemners?
Is little Lisa's value only the value given to her by her parents?
If Lisa's parents are unwilling to search for her does that give us the right to say they wouldn't so no reason I should either.....

Is that what we have become?

Is that what we have a right to hope for....

reply to post by Dav1d

At this point can you or anyone honestly tell me that you believe if just one more person condemns Deborah she will lead us to little Lisa? That the next parent of an unloved child will give that child up for adoption, rather than killing it, because of how Deborah was condemned? Or does all the condemnation of Deborah simply make it just a tiny bit easier to hate? Does it make it "alright" to hate in certain cases? Is that as a nation the direction we wish to go? Is that our hope of the future, to become a nation of haters?

I agree..and have tried to stand against the "hating"...and all the judgement, until we are sure of the facts. What else can I do?.. send emails to the police department? I'm sure they have been overloaded, and have chosen to ignore many.

You imply we are all just sitting on our butts doing nothing.. yet.. I ask you.. what have you done, besides vent your frustrations and views , and try to find info on the net?

I live in a different country, I have little power to try and get police to look further into certain details....I can only ask questions and suggest the avenues I would have pursued , and I am not sure that they haven't pursued those avenues as well ...considering we do not have much of the police info at all.

I have tried to to stop the hate mongering against Debbie..and have been cruelly attacked because of it, and had to endure accusations of being a narcissistic parent, and a mother with no heart, by the "armchair psychologists" in this thread.

Much of what you have written I have said in different words..way back in this thread...such as attacking the mother will not help bring baby Lisa back.

Maybe their needs to be an inquisition at some point on how the police have handled the information they had, and how they dealt with it? How the media is allowed to sway details and assume guilt, or at least infer it as well ?

reply to post by Dav1d

I'm an idea person, I got paid to think.. I like to believe that KCPD has some one reading forums, searching for ideas... I like to believe that if enough people ask why didn't you do this.... 1) that just possiblely someone in KCPD will say hay that's a good question, why didn't we.... a) that just might cause KCPD to try just one of my ideas, or some other idea generated here.

Honestly have to say if the KCPD has to come to forums to get ideas on what questions they should have asked.. its a pretty sad indication of what kind of detectives they have...

..but then again it may lead to clues of who may have baby Lisa.. I could see guilty parties would be very strong on trying to point the finger in other directions...or give subtle clues and hints.

Would I honestly be able to look into those eyes and tell her you chose the wrong parents, they apparently didn't love you enough, and because they chose NOT to love you, I don't need to care about you.

I hope you are not trying to imply that these parents did not love baby lisa.. because that is just more judgement.

There are many parents who make mistakes, and regret them, ..but to imply that they do not love their children is stretching it.

KANSAS CITY, Missouri (Isabelle Zehnder reporting) -- Local private investigator Ron Rugen said in private Facebook message Tuesday, “The local community's overall believability of Bradley and Irwin is reflected by lack of those participating in ‘search parties.’ They just cannot seem to drum up many to go out and conduct citizen searches.”

He’s right. Glaringly absent from this case are the search parties. A community binding together, day and night, looking for this baby. Offering help to police, printing and passing out fliers, and doing anything and everything they could possibly do to help find this child. That’s normally how it works.


Continue reading on Examiner.com Local PI sheds light on why no search parties for missing Baby Lisa - National missing persons | Examiner.com www.examiner.com...

I like to think in my way I am calling attention to something I believe needs to be address here. I like to believe that just perhaps I'm getting someone thinking. That might not directly help Lisa, or Sky it may however help some child down the line...

I'm well aware of the mindset that says give the police their chance! And the mindset that says I can't do anything anyway I'm just one person... But all great ideas start somewhere with someone, and they grow. I'm asking do we want Law Enforcement to be little more than enablers? Do we want law enforcement to assume the role of telling us who it is okay to hate, to vilify? Or do we what more from them?

Is this the road to our future? Or a path leading in a direction we don't wish to travel?

reply to post by Dav1d

I'm well aware of the mindset that says give the police their chance! And the mindset that says I can't do anything anyway I'm just one person... But all great ideas start somewhere with someone, and they grow. I'm asking do we want Law Enforcement to be little more than enablers? Do we want law enforcement to assume the role of telling us who it is okay to hate, to vilify? Or do we what more from them?

Of course we want more, and should expect more.. and perhaps its time they start being accountable for the mistakes they make instead of covering them up.

If they have made mistakes that have cost the recovery of baby Lisa..they need to be accountable for them. It is their responsibility to ensure that they have done everything possible to find the truth behind this child missing, and where she is now.

The article in your post says that people aren't searching because the parents aren't..

I thought that the parents and people in the neighborhood were told NOT to search, for fear of damaging evidence?

..and why would people expect the parents to be giving out fliers in the neighborhood? Like everyone doesn't already know about the case?.. geez..they have pics of her on a tshirts they wear.

I think the police may have had some serious tunnel vision on this one.. and missed some very important clues and info at a time that it might have made a difference.

There is also another possibility....albeit a slim one..that someone in that department knows exactly what happened, and where Lisa is.. but they are covering it up..because they are part of something much more sinister.

When I did a lot of reading about how the illuminati works from an alleged insider who had chosen to break away from her bloodlines, I remember reading how some factions were very involved with making money from child porn and bestiality.

This insider also said that the illuminati has key players in all the top positions, including government, military, financial institutes,as well as medical , and law enforcement.

IF..and I say IF.. this is indeed true..how can we be so sure that some leo's aren't being lead into false evidence, and accusations, because of a superior who could be very corrupt?

I apologize to any Leo's who work very hard at trying to protect and solve cases, and this is by no means a judgement on all.

It brings to mind the situation at the Vancouver nightclub where Cheney was asked to speak and promote his book... This was a private dinner club with some rather "interesting" types of entertainment. Who was a part of this club, was disturbing..judges lawyers, RCMP superintendent , and similar types from the upper echelons of society.

itccs.org...

1. Since the spring of 1994, lawyers and journalists have named the Vancouver Club as a site where children are routinely trafficked, exploited sexually and possibly killed. These crimes were documented, including with photographic proof, by Vancouver trial lawyer Jack Cram and his assistant Renate Andres-Auger, during 1994. Both of these lawyers attempted to bring a lawsuit against two Supreme Court judges in Vancouver for their proven complicity in this alleged pedophile ring, in April of 1994. Both of them were disbarred, and Jack Cram was arrested, drugged and jailed, and the evidence he had on the Club and these judges was stolen.

There is more in the article...and it is very revealing on the corruption and how children are used by people in power.

The reason I bring this up also david..is that if someone really started digging for Lisa in "the underground world of the net"..and really cared about what may have happened to her.. they could very well be putting their own lives in real danger , in thinking they can expose the truth of the very ugly side of child porn, and child torture.

3. An attempt by reporters with the Vancouver Province and the North Shore News to investigate these claims and the Cram evidence was stopped by a threatened lawsuit against these newspapers from the two Supreme Court judges named by Cram, during 1996 and 1997.

4. One of the predecessors to our ITCCS, the U.N.-affiliated IHRAAM Tribunal into Indian Residential Schools, obtained considerable evidence during its June, 1998 hearings in Vancouver concerning the Vancouver Club pedophile ring. This included eyewitness accounts from an employee at the Club and from a retired RCMP officer, who was discouraged by his superiors from investigating the Club, where the RCMP Superintendent is a member. When one of the IHRAAM investigators, Kevin Annett, publicly surfaced this evidence, he became immediately targeted by a COINTELPRO-type “dirty tricks” campaign by the RCMP and its aboriginal agents that continues to the present day.

Ran out of room in the last post so.. I will continue with my thoughts.

What I am trying to point out is their are very nefarious types of characters , that we would assume are not because of the positions they hold.

What happens at this vancouver club, can indeed happen in many cities.. with the same type of 'key' players involved...which would very much be a reason for the some of the police to throw a hunt for a child off track.

Penn State Scandal: Rumor Claims Sandusky “Pimped Out” Boys to Rich Donors

By Zac Wassink, Yahoo! Contributor Network
2 hours, 36 minutes ago


Just when you thought the Penn State child sex-abuse scandal couldn't possibly get any worse, we may have just scratched the surface. Joe Paterno being fired could be just the start of arguably the biggest downfall in the history of college athletics.

Pittsburgh radio personality Mark Madden, who penned a column for the Beaver County Times back in April of this year named "Sandusky a State secret," a column which foreshadowed the recent scandal which has absolutely gutted those of us in the Penn State family, was a guest on the Dennis & Callahan Morning Show on WEEI sports talk radio out of Boston on Thursday morning. During his appearance, Madden, who has been mostly right regarding this issue from the very start, dropped what can only be called a bombshell, an announcement which could mean far more than the end of Joe Paterno's career.


Madden stated that two "prominent columnists" are currently investigating a rumor that Jerry Sandusky's Second Mile Foundation, a non-profit organization aimed to serve underprivileged youths, was "pimping out young boys to rich (Penn State) donors." Madden went on to say that Jerry Sandusky was told by those running the show at Penn State football that Sandusky had to retire after allegations made in 1998 that the defensive coordinator was guilty of "improper conduct with an underage male." Sandusky, thought by some to be Joe Paterno's successor at the time, abruptly and somewhat shockingly retired from coaching in 1999.

It actually gets worse. Madden went on to say "When Sandusky quit, everybody knew; not just at Penn State. It was a very poorly kept secret around college football, in general. That is why he never coached in college football again and retired at the relatively young age of 55, young for a coach." Madden also called the Second Mile Foundation "the perfect cover" for Sandusky's scheme.

We haven't heard all of this yet either. If this is true, it sadly proves there are organizations involved in child porn. That it is not simply some twisted individual here and there...
Lately it seems we are in a rash of child abduction cases, and it seems we are being thrown a number of individuals to hate...

What is the chance that this abundance of people to hate, to vilify is simply little more than a smoke screen, a diversion from something more?

Interviews with baby Lisa's brothers underway

Parents have finally allowed it to happen. I hope this is the beginning of unravelling this case...or at least cleaning out some suspicions

KANSAS CITY, MO (KCTV) - Interviews with the older half brothers of missing baby Lisa Irwin are underway, Kansas City Police Department officials said Thursday afternoon. The FBI is helping oversee the interviews by trained child specialists, police said.

edit to add another link with a bit more info:

Interviews underway with Lisa Irwin's half brothers

Michelle

There is an interesting poll on how long an Amber alert should last, > here < it appears that the vast majority of people feel that the Amber Alert for Little Lisa was canceled way too soon! It is interesting that KCPD didn't even let the Amber Alert for Little Lisa run a full 12 hours...

Just another example of Kansas City Justice in action,

KANSAS CITY, MO (KCTV) -
A Jackson County man won't serve any jail time for shooting and killing his neighbor.

People who live near the two men involved in the feud told KCTV5's Amy Anderson back when it happened, they weren't all that surprised the on-going dispute turned deadly. What is surprising to some is the judge's sentence.

It was June 2010 and KCTV5 News was there minutes after 20-year-old Darrell Dancy was found shot to death, lying in the grass. Michael Thompson, 42, was arrested on the scene and charged with voluntary manslaughter, a charge he pleaded guilty to.

Dancy and Thompson, according to police, had been involved in an on-going feud which had escalated well past arguing. Thompson said Dancy had thrown a brick through his window, narrowly missing an infant and other family members. Thompson responded by grabbing his gun and firing.

Jackson County Circuit Judge Sandra Midkiff sentenced Thompson on Monday but he's not going to jail. Instead, the judge sentenced him to five years probation and told Thompson he has to move out of the neighborhood where the shooting happened.

Prosecuting Attorney Rick Holtsclaw argued for the maximum of 10 years. Anderson talked to him Tuesday and, while he declined to go on camera, he said he respects the judge's decision adding, "she did what she felt was best"

Midkiff ordered Thompson to pay Dancy's family $3,000.

Source here

So perhaps this helps us to understand the real value of life in Kansas City...
Perhaps those who don't live in Kansas City, will get a slightly better feel for what justice means there?

The brothers of Lisa are being re interviewed this afternoon/evening. Let's hope and pray one of those boys says that one little thing that opens the door to finding the baby !

Just how hard is KCPD working on the baby Lisa case? Back on Nov 4 KCPD tweeted this,

Police are still actively searching for #LisaIrwin. We've gotten 1205 tips & have cleared 959.
4 Nov

Today it is being reported;

Investigators have received 1,271 tips and cleared 966 of them. Law enforcement officers initially 
www.ktts.com...

So in 6 days they have gotten in 66 new tips, and they have managed to clear 7 tips, there are roughly 2000 officers in the KCPD, I believe. If we take 7 cleared tips, and divide it by 6 days, and divide that by 2000 officers we get something like 0.00058 tips per officer per day...

I don't know about you but to my mind not a really impressive figure, kind of makes me wonder just how many officers are devoted to clearing tips?

Kind of even a less impressive number when one realizes that some of those tips are most likely out of the KCPD area, and where most likely cleared by other LE units....

Originally posted by Dav1d

So in 6 days they have gotten in 66 new tips, and they have managed to clear 7 tips, there are roughly 2000 officers in the KCPD, I believe. If we take 7 cleared tips, and divide it by 6 days, and divide that by 2000 officers we get something like 0.00058 tips per officer per day...

This makes me wonder more and more what was said within the first hours of interviewing the people involved. For all the searches in ditches, woods, dumpsters and such, I wonder what was said. This is not a rant on the parents or the police. It has been said many times in this thread that the mother said the police accused her of *having something to so with the disappearance of her child. *read back and edited it.

We can be critical of the police department, and we should be as we need to make sure they keep in step to protect and serve. Since the police have not commented on it, It would be interesting to know what might be going through their minds and what they think happened that night. Lord only knows we will probably not find out until a Documentary show pays for the story or something.

IWOH

I am trying to give KCPD the benefit of the doubt. I am HOPEFUL that they are diligent and trying and that they know some info from very early on that has made them SURE the family is involved and THAT is why they seem to be not really searching as much as we'd expect to see. That being said, it's been 5 weeks ! That's a long freaking time now to have literally NO CASE as they say they have. If this group of folks who seem ( not to be mean or spiteful) to be not highly educated and possibly not highly intelligent and some or most involved with drugs and alcohol ( i mean parents , neighbors, any of the characters we've seen so far) and KCPD cannot trip them up or figure this out, then I'll have to say KCPD is the most inept there is. I keep thinking back to these folks cannot be criminal masterminds. But I guess you don't need masterminds if you've got gomer pyle behind you looking for clues. God be with Lisa on heaven or earth,wherever she spends her birthday tomorrow

Originally posted by schmae
I am trying to give KCPD the benefit of the doubt. I am HOPEFUL that they are diligent and trying and that they know some info from very early on that has made them SURE the family is involved and THAT is why they seem to be not really searching as much as we'd expect to see. That being said, it's been 5 weeks ! That's a long freaking time now to have literally NO CASE as they say they have.

This is what is boggling me. You hit it head on. If the police thought they knew what happened, or had a case and stopped searching, why would the DA say there is no case yet and no arrests. One could look at the old saying of "giving people rope to hang themselves", maybe this is what the police are trying to do, I don't know. I mean that facebook page went wild, and unless the police and FBI are *totally* clueless, then I am sure they would be monitoring it (I would be). Maybe thinking people might give up information by accident in a post.

*EDIT I edited this to clarify my comment on the Facebook. It it like it went wild and went all over the place. Then two reporters and the local PI. Accusations of wrong doing, the owner of it so sure the baby is deceased (one of his posts the other day leaned toward it).

I guess it is like you said, it has been 5 weeks. I hope baby Lisa is ok, maybe with someone that is taking care of her.

IWOH

reply to post by IwasOnceHappy


Why aren't you happy any more ?

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by IwasOnceHappy

 

Why aren't you happy any more ?

I will take that to a U2U as it will be off the topic. (Not trying to sound rude)

IWOH

P.S. Thanks for asking though.

Originally posted by schmae
I am trying to give KCPD the benefit of the doubt. I am HOPEFUL that they are diligent and trying and that they know some info from very early on that has made them SURE the family is involved and THAT is why they seem to be not really searching as much as we'd expect to see.

Just what does sure really mean?

Sure as in they have evidence of the family being involved?
Then what possible justification is there for the failure to used that evidence?
If they are sitting on that evidence, and baby Lisa dies after October 8, 2011 is KCPD complicit in the murder?

That being said, it's been 5 weeks !

Yes it has been five long weeks, and we have just exatly what?
We've had the KCPD telling us this WEEK that NO interviews were schedule with Lisa's half brothers, yet what happen today? According to the news reports, an FBI consultant was flown in from Washington and the brothers where interview in a special room, at a hidden location.... That simply didn't happen at the spare of the moment on a whim... Just whom was telling us last week that the brothers would be interviewed this week, while the KCPD spokes person was denying this was going to happen? Now KCPD certainly had the option to not comment on a possible interview, this week, instead they chose to deny that it would happen. Then when question on how long it lasted, they chose to NOT COMENT, kind of makes an unbiased observer wonder just what is going on?

That's a long freaking time now to have literally NO CASE as they say they have.

So just how long do these keystone cops get the benefit of doubt? How long do they get to bumble this case?

If this group of folks who seem ( not to be mean or spiteful) to be not highly educated and possibly not highly intelligent and some or most involved with drugs and alcohol ( i mean parents , neighbors, any of the characters we've seen so far) and KCPD cannot trip them up or figure this out, then I'll have to say KCPD is the most inept there is.

Yet how any times have we heard about the value of local input here? We have a member, who has been a very VOCAL supported of the KCPD. Who has consistently told us they are NOT inept!

I keep thinking back to these folks cannot be criminal masterminds. But I guess you don't need masterminds if you've got gomer pyle behind you looking for clues. God be with Lisa on heaven or earth,wherever she spends her birthday tomorrow

The FBI has flown in a child specialist, one of the best they have (one would assume) to trip up a six and eight year old ~ and based on the lack of an arrest, this six and eight year old out smarted the specialist today. So many will continue to give LE the benefit of doubt, continue to accept that many things need to be hidden from us...

At some point, perhaps a few will start to ask, when the search for Lisa was happening in the woods, just what did LE fear we might spot from the air? Why was the airspace really closed, over the likely search areas? What secrets does LE have that they so feared someone looking over their shoulder?

Sheeple don't care, inquiring minds want to know....