Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

Was the baby crying or making noises at all? Was the baby asleep? It does seem strange that baby would only be wearing a diaper in the fall but I live in Kansas City and can tell you one thing the begginning of October was unusually warm. There were days were it got up to almost 90 degrees. October 4 was about 80 degrees in the day and upper 50s to mid 60s that night/morning. So a child in a diaper may not be so strange in warmer weather.
My sister has a 1 and half year old in the summer time he would sleep in a diaper.
It was not 40 degrees that night like the other witness said. I did not have to turn on my heat until recently, Monday to be exact.

Baby Lisa, gone baby gone.

In missing baby cases where proof of abduction is weak, there ends up being two scenarios: the parents did something to the child or someone else slipped in and made off with the child.

Once upon a time we believed parents of missing children: we never doubted that the people standing in front of the camera, crying and begging for their child's return, were playing us. But after we got burnt by the performance of Susan Smith and a number of others, we have become more skeptical. We now replay the video to see if the parent is crying real tears and we watch their body language. We examine every bit of evidence. We don' t want to yet again be duped into expending emotion on a parent who will turn out to be a killer and a fake and we don't want to spend our valuable time searching for a child whose parents already know exactly where she is.

The rest of the write up is worth a read. The author goes on to list the ‘hurdles’ parents have to face these days in missing child cases. The conclusion of the author is Irwin and Bradley have not run a clean race so far.

peace

There is a lot of parallels to this case and the Casey Anthony Case:
Involved with many different men for both
Timeline conflicts with both cases
An inclination to "party" or drink for both
Same kind of reaction, ie. PI's and lawyers involved by the families in both cases
same kind of mannerisms of both women if you set up vids of each of their pleas on camera side by side, they're almost identical.
the only difference is the neighbors who saw a man walking with a child, I think.

reply to post by silo13


SILO!~
I'm stumped. I wonder if the child was showing any signs of life at all or just laid over like a doll.
possibly being relocated after the fact.
I have kind of discounted this sighting because the police seem to make little or nothing out of it.
I haven't considered it of much significance.

Was this the neighbor she drank with all night? allegedly ?

reply to post by dreamseeker

It does seem strange that baby would only be wearing a diaper

There you go. Now ask yourself why.

WHY was the 'baby' being carried around in just a diaper - it's 'little legs and arms showing' - without being bundled up in a coat or a blanket?

Someone wanted to make sure a baby was seen.

Not a man carrying a bundle. Not a man carrying something small in a coat (like a little dog). Someone wanted that baby seen!

And not just once. If the eyewitness reports can be believed - a BABY was seen three times.

Now the question is WHY - and I haven't figured that out yet. The fact that someone wanted that 'baby' seen just leads to sooo many scenarios!

Revenge. Subterfuge. Mind games for the family or by the family.

ANd don't forget - that 'baby' could have been a doll for all we know.

The mystery just continues... Where is baby Lisa.

peace

reply to post by silo13


Like I said maybe she had one of her drinking buddies cover up the crime, or accident, whatever and the person really did want to be seen with the child because maybe they had a concience unlike the mother.

What are the parents doing this week? Has anyone seen them handing out flyers? Going door to door?
Searching the woods with all of their family and friends , walking shoulder to shoulder , hoping to catch
a clue of where teh baby is? I don't think they are! If it were me and I was being accused, I would have
to take that with a lump and keep looking and begging people to not stop looking. I don't see this kind of activity
from the parents at all.
Also once the dog fuond the " HIT" in the house, I wonder now if the older children are being lined up
for removal? AND if and when that happens, DAD might have more to say. If he's innocent and knows
his baby girl is lost and might lose his o ther child by sticking up for the MOM, he might have more to
say . Who knows !

reply to post by ldyserenity


I've thought about this too. Some say a neighbor or perhaps her brother would help her cover up the crime.
I just think that if someone called me , a dear friend or relative and asked me to help them cover up a crime like that...........dispose of a baby? ,,, Not only would I decline.. I'd say you better start running cuz I'm calling the police in 3, 2, 1 DIAL TONE and call 911. Right?

What I want to know was the child the man was carrying dead or alive? If a baby is awake it is bound to make some noise. If it is asleep it would be against the person's shoulder. That would say alot if the people who witnessed this could tell if the baby was moving, sleeping, awake etc. One theory I have thought of was that it could have been lisa and she was not alive so deborah asked someone she knew to help her cover it up?
I heard that there was a call placed on one of their cells in late night hours? Has anyone else heard anymore of this?
At this point more and more is starting to add up to point to some sort of accident that was covered up. Did lisa fall and hit her head? The bed was raised up too high for a standing infant; unless the bed was pushed up at a later date? Did the baby get really sick and pass away in the night? Did the father discover her maybe?
There are too many questions to be answered. I feel it is unlikely it is a kidnapping. From what I saw from the footage of dectives fumbling to get into the window. I hope Lisa was kidnapped because I feel the kidnapper may have just wanted a baby and would not harm her. Most sex offenders do not kidnap infants for sex crimes and most children under 3 or 4 are typically only killed by someone the infant/child knew.
All these assumptions are coming from what I remember my father telling me about his dective work.

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by ldyserenity

 

I've thought about this too. Some say a neighbor or perhaps her brother would help her cover up the crime.
I just think that if someone called me , a dear friend or relative and asked me to help them cover up a crime like that...........dispose of a baby? ,,, Not only would I decline.. I'd say you better start running cuz I'm calling the police in 3, 2, 1 DIAL TONE and call 911. Right?

It depends on what they had on you, could have been a side lover who had his own family? Could she have threatened to reveal their affair? Could she know something else about the person to use against them like drug selling or some other criminal activity used as leverage? There could be a myriad of reasons.

Originally posted by silo13
For those few of you who criticize your fellow ATS members for being angry at this appalling situation and voicing their frustration here on the forums? I would suggest cutting them some slack.

Well I would suggest that all of those angry members consider that we have convoluted information handed down through a media machine that has an agenda to sensationalize the circumstance to generate interest; and "Mommy killed her baby" sells. It gets people mad, (obviously) and obsessive (apparently).

I would also suggest that all of the vitriolic judge/jury/executioner wannabe's have a really serious look at their own motivations when they would condemn this woman because she is fat, or she mis-spoke, or they think she is "cold" or "arrogant" or "cries too much" (it's just a show when she shows emotion, but she's uncaring when she doesn't... see how this goes?), mostly based on edited bits of interviews or grainy video. So until those things happen (and they won't) then no, not one bit of slack will I cut actually. I don't suffer these kinds of fools well at all. Mostly because they are incapable of seeing that what they are indulging in is a self-righteous power trip that they are desperately trying to disguise as compassion.

Originally posted by silo13
That is unless you're saving up all your 'compassion' for an undisciplined out of control so called 'mother' who practices 'adult time' by getting sodden drunk and leaving her child and other mother's children untended and in danger on a regular basis.

I'll judge her for that. Bad mom. Sure. But I don't think that this automatically means that there was something nefarious going on with this child. It makes an accident more likely, but not a for-gone conclusion, and acting like a sloppy, irresponsible parent means that no one could have taken that child is completely illogical. Since there is so much "speculation" about possible scenarios (mostly presented as fact but never mind), I would like to point out one myself:

If I were a nasty person who wanted to sell a pretty, blue eyed, blond baby girl on the black market, I would look for people who were poor, socially questionable, and vulnerable. Then the authorities would be far more likely to blame them than look for me. I know what the statistics are, and I also know that people are far more likely to place blame on the ones close at hand who "look" like they are guilty, regardless of guilt. (Yes even the police.)

Originally posted by silo13
That being said - I absolutely cannot even begin to fathom how anyone can even think of making excuses for a mother who LIES to the authorities when TIME IS CRITICAL! When truth is needed to find a little tiny defenseless innocent baby girl as soon as possible!!!

Well you're right no excuse. That's stupid, and highly suspicious. But did she actually lie? Or did she mis-speak, remember wrong, or withhold information. The last is suspicious if that is indeed what she did. If she actually lied I may very well alter my stance a bit, I may have missed it, I'm not following this as closely as some. If any of you have evidence of an actual false hood if you would be willing to U2U that I would be greatly appreciative.

Originally posted by silo13
And meanwhile she stands there blubbering and 'waa-waa-ing' convinced the public and police are going to believe her! Like all those concerned are a bunch of SUCKERS - a bunch of RUBES!

'Waaa-waaaa, oh paweeeeze hep me find ma bay-beee!’

reply to post by redhorse



Thank god..a voice of reason ......amongst so much mud flinging..and hate mongering..

Thank you..thank you..thank you..

Honestly for me I try to just be objective. There really is no need to call the mother names or the father or anyone for that matter. How does that really help Lisa? By the way the mother does not look fat to me. She may be a little heavy set but since when does that have anything to do with parenting? Her tears look real to me and I believe she truly is sad. Even if this was an accident I feel she is very upset and the father is in a state of shock.
I have not ruled anything out at this point but I am trying not to judge the parents either. I am a little heavy myself,(about 150 lbs) and I can tell you how hurtful that is when someone uses the term 'fat". There is no point really. I know people are angry and it is ok to think that but I feel it is counter productive.
We are all humans and we are not perfect so please do not attack me for saying this but a good point is being made in the posts above me.

reply to post by redhorse


Somebody had to say it. Thank you.

I am interested in following up on what has happened to this baby, but this thread is so polluted with absolute venom and fantasy, that I can't even read through the replies. Some of these members should take a good long hard look at themselves. Such nieve knee jerk responses.

reply to post by maya27

I am interested in following up on what has happened to this baby, but this thread is so polluted with absolute venom and fantasy, that I can't even read through the replies.

I've 'headlined' updates and links and new information. There are probably three or four links/updates to every 'opinion'.

If you know a better mechanic to present the (new) facts/updates so they're even more bold and obvious - for easier reading to those who don't want to get involved in opinion please let me know and I'll apply it.

Maybe use a color???

peace

reply to post by redhorse

When I posted in red about Lisa's mother 'knowing the truth' - I was referring to the many times she's changed her story and the lies she's been caught in between one interview and the next. If my wording led you to believe I'm accusing Lisa's mother of 'knowing the full truth' that is not what I meant at all in this instance.

If you want to decide that means I'm "saving my compassion for mom" you go ahead and do what you need to do to fuel this self-righteous power trip so many of you are having having so much fun with.

Actually the 'compassion for mom' was not directed at you at all. Again, my miscommunication possibly?

Beyond that if you're implying I'm on a power trip come right out and say it. But I'd like to know what that has to do with Lisa? Isn't that mud slinging of a sort - just like you accuse others of doing? Anyway, you've no idea the time and effort and personal sacrifice - and cost I've put into this thread. And for what? Because I finish what I start, no more, no less.

peace

reply to post by redhorse

Sorry, I’m in between a few things, let me get back to your post.

Well I would suggest that all of those angry members consider that we have convoluted information handed down through a media machine that has an agenda to sensationalize the circumstance to generate interest; and "Mommy killed her baby" sells. It gets people mad, (obviously) and obsessive (apparently).

And I would suggest the popular opinion and anger should be laid at the feet of Susan Smith and continue right on up the line through all the other 'missing and murdered baby' cases to conclude with the most recent tragedy - Caylee Anthony and her...Mother.

So really, let's not (again) judge collective anger and frustration too harshly.

I'll judge her for that. Bad mom. Sure. But I don't think that this automatically means that there was something nefarious going on with this child.

I guess that depends (obviously) on your definitions of ‘nefarious’.

During interviews Lisa’s mother admits to being passed out drunk a ‘couple a times a week’ on a regular basis. (These are not ‘my’ words they’re hers. No grainy film that you can even see her lips move when she speaks the words).

In my opinion that’s irresponsible and narcissistic behavior at best.

Mixing anxiety medicine and drink to the point of 'blacking out' and making a habit of it? Child protective services remove children from homes where parents take 'adult time' like Deborah does.

Think about it. Who hires a baby sitter to watch their kids knowing when the kids go to sleep the babysitter will get sodding drunk. Why should it be any different for parents?

It makes an accident more likely, but not a for-gone conclusion, and acting like a sloppy, irresponsible parent means that no one could have taken that child is completely illogical.

I don’t understand what you’re saying here and I’ll speculate. I think what you’re trying to say is - if Lisa’s mother wasn't drunk the child might not have been taken? I’d agree that would be illogical now wouldn’t it.

If I were a nasty person who wanted to sell a pretty, blue eyed, blond baby girl on the black market, I would look for people who were poor, socially questionable, and vulnerable. Then the authorities would be far more likely to blame them than look for me. I know what the statistics are, and I also know that people are far more likely to place blame on the ones close at hand who "look" like they are guilty, regardless of guilt. (Yes even the police.)

Something I’ve pointed out repeatedly. With all the pictures on the net (Deborah's’ FB page and her families pages) it would be pretty easy to see not only where that baby lived, but where she slept, the lay out of the house etc. Someone ‘casing’ the house for a short time would probably find it very easy to slip in and out with Lisa.

. But did she actually lie? Or did she mis-speak, remember wrong, or withhold information. The last is suspicious if that is indeed what she did. If she actually lied I may very well alter my stance a bit

There’s a post not that far back that compares all the changes in story from Deborah. I call it lying because when you don't know something - especially in a situation as critical as this - you simply say 'I don't know' or 'I don't remember'. I’m sure her lawyer calls it ‘stress’.

Facts are her credibility went to hell when she finally fessed up to being drunk. Ahh, but that's a 'lie by omission' now isn't it! Ahhhh! Impossible. So once again we're back to our opinions.

EDIT TO ADD:

Here's the link to all the (lies) 'inconsistencies' from Lisa's mother. 15, 20, I stopped counting.

Lisa Irwin case: Version 4.0.1, a lawyer, still no baby

I hope you'll have the time to read it considering I took the time to find it.

Thanks for your input,

peace

reply to post by schmae

What are the parents doing this week? Has anyone seen them handing out flyers? Going door to door?
Searching the woods with all of their family and friends , walking shoulder to shoulder , hoping to catch
a clue of where teh baby is? I don't think they are! If it were me and I was being accused, I would have
to take that with a lump and keep looking and begging people to not stop looking. I don't see this kind of activity
from the parents at all.

From what I've read they're 'staying out of it' as not to interrupt the police and the investigation. I thought I'd just posted that link - let me go back and get it - it should be only a few pages back.

peace

reply to post by ldyserenity


Casey never plead for Caylees return. She never cried in front of the cameras unless it was about her.
Deborah may be faking , I dont know.

reply to post by silo13


Silo, sorry . You don't have to go looking. It was more of a rhetorical question. The point is they could NOT be in the way of law enforcement by looking in fields, etc. Since she's obviously going to have a camera in her face at any moment she asks, why not plead for baby's safe return? I just think being huddled up inside and waiting for word from the police about the search would drive me crazier than if I was physically out there looking myself. Don't a lot of parents with a kidnapped baby speak ' directly to the abductor' ? "if you can hear me and you have our baby please bring her home,, we'll do anything you want , please dont hurt her '' etc etc. Those kind of pleas are very common, right? Yet, we've heard nothing of the sort.

Remember OJ proclaimed his innocence from day one and said he wanted the trial to end so eh could 'find the real killer'. Well he's in jail now, BUT before that I dont' recall him doing any interviews about finding this killer and bringing him to justice ! Just saying.