Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

reply to post by schmae


Sounds to me like the judge is responsible for any defense issues in that case. I understand the prosecution is ready to proceed however its the defendant whose life is in the balance. If defense requests a delay, it should be granted (within reason).

The defendant knows full well any delay will mean sitting in custody for a longer time, and since the defendant is aware and concurs then there is no speedy trial / due process issues.

reply to post by wildtimes


Wow the number of things wrong in that case are mind boggling. For starters I find it weird family services would be conducting an interrogation instead of the police (granted Ill might allow for that, here in MO though its a no go since guilt seeking questions are being asked which requires Miranda.

Secondly doing the orphanage thing in order to sway the parents is tantamount to coercion. It would be like telling a mother that unless you tell me where your husband is, i'm taking your child. Forcing information under duress / coercion is a huge nono and is an excellent way to get evidence / testimony thrown out and destroy a case.

This is another reason you dont see the police constantly at the parents house or dragging them in for questioning. Its possible for the police to get hit with harassment complaints when we go a bit overboard on contact with persons of interest.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by wildtimes

 

The Fort B story just makes this case the ultimate in weird doesn't it.
Talk about casting doubt!

I keep hoping to find some news, any new news about Lisa or the custody case and I've yet to hear a peep either way.

Maybe we'll learn something more today!?

peace

I'm going to say that unless someone comes forward, chances are she wont be found until spring thaw when it begins to heat up outside. Usually the heat will support the process of decomp which means a smell / animal (assuming she is no longer with us) will locate if she is anywhere they have access.

Sorry not trying to be morbid. Just pointing that out for those who might be hoping for a quick resolution. The other issue is the size and age of the person we are talking about. Smaller, not completely formed which allows a greater breakdown by nature.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Hey there, X, I was just wondering if we'd see you again! Thank you for your feedback on the items above. The question remains, though....
when cases get bungled, such as the one in Illinois, does it generally result in tweaking protocol, overhauling procedures, etc.?

I would think that like any trade, art, or profession, mistakes are used as opportunities to improve technique and knowledge...I'm guessing it's not a blanket nation-wide type thing, but more of a localized evolution or morphing of departments. Although eventually things might become so widely recognized as viable that they DO go into national "best practice" packages. The things that get taught at conferences and the like, to professionals.

Oh, and that's a good question, too!! Do LEOs have mandatory ongoing training (in-service) like teachers and social service professionals? Or is it more like at corporations, where you might get approval to go to a confernce or class being offered, or you might not. Totally your boss's whim.

While this article does not contain any new information on Baby Lisa it does show people are paying attention. With that said I want to follow with... This poor family!!!! They have had to prove five times their baby is their own.

Family of similar child is caught in baby Lisa nightmare

Shortly after baby Lisa Irwin disappeared in October, Amy noticed other shoppers looking at her and her 10-month-old baby, Lucy, in the supermarket.

“I saw people peering down the aisles at me,” the Overland Park mother said. “But I convinced myself that they were probably just looking for a can of green beans or something.”

Then three older women surrounded her.

“How old is your baby?” they asked. One of them pulled down Lucy’s blanket and lifted the baby’s dress to inspect her legs.

Other shoppers whispered and pointed Amy’s way.

“They think this is baby Lisa,” she realized. The woman was checking Lucy’s leg for the birthmark on Lisa Irwin’s right thigh.

The incident — one of hundreds of potential baby Lisa sightings reported to police — ended with Overland Park officers following Amy home and leaving only after she presented Lucy’s vaccination records and insurance card.

“At that point, I was glad people were paying attention,” said Amy, who didn’t want her last name published because of fears for her baby’s safety. “I would want that if my baby were missing.

“I just thought, ‘Wow. What a day. It’s a fluke.’ ”

But then it happened again. And again. Five times in all, Amy and her husband, David, have had to prove to law enforcement officers that they are indeed Lucy’s parents.

And that doesn’t count the times shoppers have cast dirty looks. Amy worries that someone is always watching her, judging her. She’s afraid to let anyone baby-sit Lucy because they might not be able to prove their relationship with her. She wonders how the negative attention is affecting her three other children.

The family is not convinced it’s over. Police visited their home last week in an incident that Amy ranks as the “worst of all.”

“I can’t tell you how emotionally this has affected me,” she said. “It’s to the point where I’m afraid of going out. It’s very upsetting.”

More of each reporting and interaction with the police is at the link: kansascity.com

Like I stated before, this poor family! It's weird to me to think about the police being in so much contact with this family, yet Baby Lisa's parents get to enjoy a police free life.

OiO

On BLIU fb page, the talk is of "carolers" planning or threatening to stand outside Irwin's house every day for 12 days and sing Christmas Carols.

The debate is whether it is a spiteful and nasty reminder that they won't have Lisa there, or that it is "supportive" and since it's not a "vigil" it might be nice for the boys....

I personally find it in VERY poor taste, and it reeks of "mean girl" snark tactics...I'm not sure where they got the info, apparently somewhere (maybe on another LI fb page?) though it is being posted that the police are aware of it, and advising the family/community. I don't know for sure. I'll keep looking and check back to see if you guys know where that came from...

EDIT: Sorry, the link goes to the Updates FB page. I'll c/p the picture. To me it's terrorism.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Hey there, X, I was just ...

Heya... Ive been around, just laying low. Trying to get some real life stuff taken care of. As far as something getting bungled it will depend on what was bungled and what the outcome is. Usually speaking if the defense / prosecution / judge bungle something its corrected at the appeals level in one regard. Depending on which offical bungled it and what got bungled -
The PA - Prosecutorial misconduct / ethics violation / possible civil rights violation / disbarred
The defense - Misconduct resulting in an ethics complaint / obstruction / civil rights violation / disbarred
The Judge - Ethics complaint filed with the judiciary branch / if they hold a law license possible disbarment / civil rights violation.

The laws that govern our judicial / law enforcement system are the result of hundreds of years of law and case law going back to Britain and France (Louisiana uses Napolenoic code instead of English common law).

Originally posted by wildtimes
I would think that like any trade, art, or profession, mistakes are used as opportunities to improve technique and knowledge...I'm guessing it's not a b...

Mistakes dealing with application of law are "fixed" through the appeals process. First at the local / county level, then state appeals, then state Supreme Court. From there it can go to federal appeals and then US Supreme Court. The appeals process is based on errors made during the trial by any party. People dont realize they have to have grounds for an appeal if found guilty. In terms of affect, a ruling in state appeals and state supreme only affect the counties in the appeals district and entire state if supreme court rules on it. Once it hits the federal appeals level, any ruling will affect any state withing thatfederal appeals circuit. A US Supreme Court ruling will affect all states and Us commonwealths (Peurto Rico / Guam / etc).

Originally posted by wildtimes
Oh, and that's a good question, too!! Do LEOs have mandatory ongoing training (in-service) like teachers and social service professionals? Or is it more like at corporations, where you might get approval to go to a confernce or class being offered, or you might not. Totally your boss's whim.

We are, but it depends on which state you are post certified in since they establish their own continuing education. Here in Missouri our "base continuing education" is 40 hours a year. That is divided into:

•Legal Studies-Training focuses on updates or familiarization concerning federal, state and local criminal law or legal issues;
•Interpersonal Perspectives-Training focuses on communication skills such as cultural diversity training, ethics, conflict management, victim sensitivity and stress management;
•Technical Studies-Training focuses on specialized studies or activities which directly relate to the job description, including first aid and CPR training; and
•Skill Development- Training focuses on activities that develop physical skill proficiency such as defensive tactics, firearms driver training, first aid and CPR training. A minimum of four (4) hours of some type of Firearms Skill Development training must be completed every three (3) year reporting period

The above does not include mandated continuing education for the department. Depending on size of the department an officer can go through as much as the basic 40 hours or as much as a couple hundred hours, depending on needs, specialization, use etc.

For instance in missouiri if a Police Agency wishes to conduct a DWI checkpoint there must be at least one officer present who is a state certified DWI checkpoint supervisor to ensure all actions taken by all officers present are withing Federal / State / Local guidelines / law as well as departmental policy. Weapons proficiency is another big area. The state requires weapons qualifications once a year. Most departments ive dealt with do it quarterly to bu annually.

I would say the bulk of the updates we get deal with law changes via state or federal appeals / rulings. Since each county (or combination of 2 or 3 counties) are their own circuit here in Missouri, its possible to have one circuit make a ruling that makes case law for only those 3 counties.

My old city fell into 3 counties. Of the 3, 1 of those counties had an issue with a Police drug recognition expert. the result of the judges ruling essentially made any DRE in that county invalid, since their testimony would not be allowed as a drug recognition expert.

For those who arent familiar it is possible to be able to recignize the affects of certain types of drugs in the system. Like a DWI stop, there are certain tests e can perform that will indicate if a drug other than alcohol is present in a persons system.

Hope this helps.

reply to post by Xcathdra


It does help, but I'm wondering also if, say the Chief can decide that his unit(s) should examine a case in detail, and put into their own "best practice" protocols that will prevent the same errors from occurring in his particular Dept. Without "court" or "law" having to make them.

More of a quiet , "Okay, team, we as a unit are NEVER going to do this thing that the unit in Chicago did."

The FB poster claiming he is Uncle Johnny says this morning:www.facebook.com...

Wheres all the people hiding behind fake names and pages on here ? Are you afraid of everybody knowing who you really are ? That allows you to criticize others when you yourself have all kinds of dirt in your closet. Come on coward , make up some more crap about me. This is about a missing baby and you wanna talk about me because you have ulterior motives. You already said too much and they are working diligently to identify you thru your isp. Show me what you got. I have no secrets but you do. Cowards. Cyberbullies. The worse thing I ever did was a burglary 9 years ago. I never killed a baby. Why would you be against me for helping Lisa ? I know why and so does the Police.

A few moments ago. If you read through the posts/comments, you'll see one that many people are contributing to, and how they are all noticing the ABSENCE of certain posters who he (Johnny) has called out as being "fake names" and actually family members or Deborah and Jeremy themselves.

Interesting.

reply to post by OneisOne


For those people residing in missouri who pull crap like that, be forewarned the action of unwanted physical contact in that nature can qualify as an assault on another person.

If you have suspicions, be a good witness and DO NOT get invoved physically. Only Law Enforcement has the ability to lawfully detain a person. A private citizen can detain for a crime, but they must be 100 percent a crime took place, and when it comes to baby identification, good luck proving that in court.

Secondly, being approached by a group of people who surround you, and confront you while another gets physical with a child, depending on the agressiveness of the situation, could possibly justify a deadly use of force in defending yourself and the baby.

Please - THINK before taking ANY action. The ability of law enforcement to do their jov is not conveyed on the people as they are covered by different laws. DO NOT get invovled in the manner described in the article. You are not only asking for trouble, but possible criminal charges. Preventing a person from leaving an area, depending on the actions invovled, could also fall under the kidnapping statute. In Missouri Kidnapping is depriving an individual of his or her freedom, so simply "detaining" a person because you think they stolse a child could fall in that category.

Be a good WITNESS and observe as much as you can - Personal descriptions -
Male / Female
White Black Asian Latin etc. If person is not white, pay attention to skin color tone (dark, light, mocha, etc).
Distinguishing characteristics (scars / tattoos / abnormalities (missing an arm, one arm / leg smaller than the other, deformitiy in the fingers etc).
Clothing, from head to toe and try to look for layers of clothing - including hats (color, writing on it)

For Vehicle - Use CYMBALS

C - color

Y - year

M - make

B - body

A - additional descriptive features

L - license

S - state

Pay close attention to the plate number, as well as looking for distinguishing characteristics on the vehicle -
Bumper sticker
dings / damage etc

Also keep in mind -
If by the person you are "detaining" is an abductor, the person should be considered armed and dangerous. They have already demonstrated the ability to take a small child, and if its a parentlal kidnapping situation the person very well may be unstable.

Criminals who are caught, when facing the possibility of 25 to life with no parole, wont always "go quietly". The mindset is usually survival or death, which ever he can get away with first.

Confronting an individual like the articel decribed also places every single perosn in tat store in danger, since its not out of the realm that the "abductor" could take additional hostages.

I can keep going but you guys get the idea...

Always always always be a good witness and dont ever place yourself into a situation that exposes you or others to danger.

Remember there are always exceptions to the rule, but the rule is in place for a very good reason. Do civilians get invovled? They do, sometime with heroic outcomes and sometime with tragic consequences. Think before acting. If the person is grocery shopping, then call the police and keep a safe distance and observe the individual.

Think before you act.

Originally posted by wildtimes
On BLIU fb page, the talk is of "carolers" planning or threatening to stand outside Irwin's house every day for 12 days and sing Christmas Carols.

The debate is whether it is a spiteful and nasty reminder that they won't have Lisa there, or that it is "supportive" and since it's not a "vigil" it might be nice for the boys....

I personally find it in VERY poor taste, and it reeks of "mean girl" snark tactics...I'm not sure where they got the info, apparently somewhere (maybe on another LI fb page?) though it is being posted that the police are aware of it, and advising the family/community. I don't know for sure. I'll keep looking and check back to see if you guys know where that came from...

EDIT: Sorry, the link goes to the Updates FB page. I'll c/p the picture. To me it's terrorism.

edit on 10-12-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-12-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

not only is it in poor taste, they are going to be breaking the law as well. Even if the carolers stand in the street and sing, they are still creating a noise disturbance. Any person on that block can call the police and sign a citation for peace disturbance (Missouri Police cant have their peace disturbed). Depending on their actions its possible to meet harassment charges as well.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

It does help, but I'm wondering also if, say the Chief can decide that his unit(s) should examine a case in detail, and put into their own "best practice" protocols that will prevent the same errors from occurring in his particular Dept. Without "court" or "law" having to make them.

More of a quiet , "Okay, team, we as a unit are NEVER going to do this thing that the unit in Chicago did."

Absolutely - Departmental policies and procedures cover those circumstances, provided its something policy and procedure can adequately and legally address. Since the laws in Illinois are different from those in Missouri, its entirely possible that the action in Illinois is illegal while in Missouri its legal.

In the end though, when something major happens like tha,t departments will go back and look at their procedures to see if they are worded in a manner that could allow a similar situation is possible for them.

As an example - There are 2 larger police agencies near me that, by policy, does not allow their officers to discharge their weapon from a moving vehicle. However, during their yearly training, they do spend time on the tactical gun range and they do practice situations where the officer will fire his weapon from not only in the car, but also across the front seat out the passenger side window.

*** Let me correct something - The departments use the term standard operating guideline, with guidelines being the optimal word, instead of policies and procedures.***

Just because the department doesnt allow it, doesnt mean the officer wont ever be in a situaiton where discharging their firearm in the vehicle while moving is required.

Its one of the main reasons an officers use of force / deadly force, per the US Supreme Court, can only be viewed from the position of what the officer perceived at the exact moment they used force. Meaning its incumbent on the officer to justify their actions based on what they perceived.

Hindsight 20/20 is not allowed, since a split second decision to discharge your duty weapon into a person to end a perceived threat is not done in hindsight. We all can look back and say yes or no, but unless your the person who was present, all you see is the aftermath, and not the mental decision process involved.

policies and procedures are constantly reviewed and updated when needed, either by law or incident gone wrong..

Poll???

Do you think Lisa will ever be found? alive or as an angel?
If she is found, will it be in time for any evidence to "CLEARLY" point to the person responsible ?


I think No and No.
I am hopeful and prayerful that I am wrong.
Remember Caylee Anthony, by the time her body was found, evidence was so far deteriorated
that there was no real way to determine cause of death and/or WHOM was responsible.

reply to post by schmae


No, I don't think she'll be found. But I honestly don't know whether I think she is alive or not. Too much points to previous cases where the child was eventually found to be NOT alive. But there are also reasons to believe she may have been stolen or sold. It does happen.

If it DID happen, I hope it was for a desperate family unable to have a child, and very wealthy so they could keep her out of the public eye for awhile. Not like the mom in Florida who was gonna sell her same-age son for $7000.

Yikes.

I don't know schmae. I just really don't know.

Just looking at some questions about the 911 call. The 911 /dispatch to LE part has been released. But the ACTUAL 911 portion of Jeremy calling for help is not. Generally speaking within a few days to a week, these sort of 911 calls are released and media airs them. Why the delay this time? It makes me think that there is something peculiar on that tape . Right? If they release 911 calls all the time in high profile cases, but NOT this time, then doesnt' that point to something odd? Perhaps its a MAJOR piece of evidence they plan to use at trial and don't want it out now swaying jurors?

Originally posted by schmae
Poll???

Do you think Lisa will ever be found? alive or as an angel?
If she is found, will it be in time for any evidence to "CLEARLY" point to the person responsible ?


I think No and No.

I am hopeful and prayerful that I am wrong.
Remember Caylee Anthony, by the time her body was found, evidence was so far deteriorated
that there was no real way to determine cause of death and/or WHOM was responsible.

I think maybe one day she will be found, I cannot say if it will be alive or not. As I said many pages back, (If she is alive) I just hope she ended up with a family that loves her and that would treat her as their own.

IWOH

Originally posted by schmae
Just looking at some questions about the 911 call. The 911 /dispatch to LE part has been released. But the ACTUAL 911 portion of Jeremy calling for help is not. Generally speaking within a few days to a week, these sort of 911 calls are released and media airs them. Why the delay this time? It makes me think that there is something peculiar on that tape . Right? If they release 911 calls all the time in high profile cases, but NOT this time, then doesnt' that point to something odd? Perhaps its a MAJOR piece of evidence they plan to use at trial and don't want it out now swaying jurors?

Its an ongoing investigation. If there is specific material in the 911 call that could jeopardize an investigation then its usually withheld. 911 calls are covered by FOIA but it has some stipulations / restrictions, especially when it comes down to guilt or innocence, or at least the perception of.

The other issue is when police are forced to release information during the investigation it presents the very real possibility that people may take things into their own hands and dole out some vigilante justice. In this case about 911, context is king.

The other reason I am of the same mindset comes from the 911 police dispatch audio. At one point the officer is asked to call dispatch for more info. The times ive have that done to me was so dispatch could give me information thats not meant for the public to hear. As an example ive had dispatchers relay their feeling on the call and caller itself. Dispatchers dont usually put their personal opinions about a call they just received over the air. Again, reason being context is king.

Also, as we found out, someone who was scanning and recording KCPD dispatch channel to officers, people who arent law enforcement listen. People have taken advantage of the fact that they can listen to the dispatch, which could accidentally give information to anyone listening that could be used against law enforcement (evidence disposal / amush / setup / etc.

reply to post by IwasOnceHappy


I just watched your signature vid. Holy crap! Yeah, wouldn't that be nice? If we ALL had that superpower against the bad guys??

Also, I love your avatar. Great shot. Does the dog have a tin foil hat??
(Not that s/he'd need it -- criminy, if looks could kill!!)

reply to post by wildtimes


Thank you. I think I could try to put a tin foil hat in there, but would probably look stupid (meaning I am not that good).

Okay, ladies and gents.

Here's another "poll".

If you are following the two FB pages, Baby Lisa Irwin Updates, and Justice for Lisa Irwin, you will have seen Johnny Chi..there, who claims to be Lisa's great-uncle (Deborah's uncle). Now, I would like to know if you think he is ACTUALLY who he says he is?

I am thinking that if he is NOT, then the "real" Johnny Chivalette would certainly have been alerted to this person masquerading as him, and got the fraudulent Johnny banned.

There is also mention of the Justice FB page being HIM. Whoever has it has been asked this, and has neither confirmed nor denied it.

Do you have any thoughts on this? Regardless of the fact that he makes some outlandish and unseemly claims, if he really is NOT Deborah's uncle, it seems he'd have been banned by Facebook itself.

Also, do you think any of the posters on there are actually family members, as Johnny C has claimed?

Those two pages are really mixing up my brain. There are also folks on there who sound VERY MUCH like some of the people who have come and gone on this thread of silo13's.

Thoughts?