Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

Originally posted by gabby2011
Sad that you have made up your mind on the guilt part, and deciding the whys and hows already.

Like how you have done with law enforcement and any person who doesn't see it your way?

Thinking a person guilty and actually proving someone is guilty are mutually exclusive of each other. Guilt or innocence is determined in the court room.

Outside the courtroom guilt or innocence is an opinion.

You need to learn the difference.

Also I'm curious to your response to these two I asked earlier...... I know there's a lot to read some days so I'm sure you just overlooked it. ( i write way too much so probably no one reads half what i say now )


Do you agree when a woman is beaten senseless by her spouse and she drops charges that she should be able to? Or that the state should pick up the charges?
Do you believ ethat when a mother beats a child and the child still cries with outstretched arms for his mother that the child should still go to foster care?
yes or no to both of those questions would be great ...............

Question for all of you who have been following this case closely:

Will this ever be solved?

reply to post by antar


My personal bet.......NO !

reply to post by Xcathdra

Like how you have done with law enforcement and any person who doesn't see it your way?

Nope.. just because I may not agree with some of the tactics of LE doesn't mean I'm against them..

I have not said that Debbie is innocent.. But I think she may be innocent.. considering other evidence.

Thinking a person guilty and actually proving someone is guilty are mutually exclusive of each other. Guilt or innocence is determined in the court room.

Actually it doesn't.. as in the cases of those who went to prison for killing their child that in fact had not..

Outside the courtroom guilt or innocence is an opinion. You need to learn the difference.

Obviously in the court room it is still an opinion as well.. as indicted by those who have been convicted of crimes..that at a later date.. were proven to be innocent of..

I'm afraid you need to know the difference of guilty and innocent.. it is not based on the laws opinion..and in fact is based on the reality..at times that reality is not made known , or not seen by the courts.

hate to break it to you X, but the law and our court system is hardly the be all and end to truth and justice..

reply to post by schmae


My final assessment on this will be in total truth of my gut instinct. I feel that there are some who do know a small portion of this and are not telling because of frighting threats. It is probable that little Baby Lisa fell prey to a child abduction scheme which without going into detail would find the little girl dead within a period of time.

Think about all of the child porn rings worldwide, and how desperate people without conscience can be.

Originally posted by antar
reply to post by schmae

 

My final assessment on this will be in total truth of my gut instinct. I feel that there are some who do know a small portion of this and are not telling because of frighting threats. It is probable that little Baby Lisa fell prey to a child abduction scheme which without going into detail would find the little girl dead within a period of time.

Think about all of the child porn rings worldwide, and how desperate people without conscience can be.

Thank you for your thoughts antar..My gut feeling is someone took that child..possibly the neighbor husband or jeremy the handyman.. what happened to it from there..I'm not sure.. but if did indeed go into some sort of child ring.. there would be people in key positions hiding that info.

reply to post by schmae

As for Jeremy , for some reason, I still do not think he's involved, not even in the cover up phase. I think he may know NOW what happened, but on the night in question I think he was at work being a diligent husband and dad and came home and BELIEVED whatever was told to him.

I don't think he is either - I'm just setting about looking at all scenarios - and making no conclusions as to guilt regardless of what some hypocrites want to think.

And yes, I do believe he was doing what he needed to do that night being a diligent responsible father - and yes, believing what he was told. He wouldn't have much choice.

Honestly though - I don't think he's stupid. Maybe a little slow, but not stupid. And if he 'turned' on the mother of his one son to make sure he got sole custody of Blake? I have no doubt he'll 'turn' on anyone else he believes (in time) is responsible for Lisa's disappearance - and who threatens his family... No matter who he believes that person is. Give him time.

peace

reply to post by antar

Question for all of you who have been following this case closely:

Will this ever be solved?

If by solved you mean we find out (with a reasonable amount of truth) what took place the night of the 4th? Yes. Will justice be done? I doubt it.

Have a Wonderful Holidays Antar.

reply to post by silo13

If by solved you mean we find out (with a reasonable amount of truth) what took place the night of the 4th? Yes. Will justice be done? I doubt it.

yes..and unfortunately that same scenario stands ..if the Irwins are innocent of this disappearance. Only problem is they have to deal with the scrutiny of the public for it..while the guilty party/parties don't have to pay the price..not only of justice being served.. but the stigma that the public attaches to people like this and their families.

reply to post by silo13

I don't think he is either - I'm just setting about looking at all scenarios - and making no conclusions as to guilt regardless of what some hypocrites want to think.

Your posts speak for themselves silo..

concerning this case you have not once said Jersey the handyman could have done it.. or the neighbors husband who was picked out of a photo,as well as a lineup by an eye witness.

nope.. you have consistently brought your focus back on the family..and tried to discredit those who were eye witnesses.

Anyone who has read most of this thread..can clearly see what side of the fence you are on.. to the point of questioning good info.. and evidence that points away from the parents.

Interesting questions - sad also.

What must the step-brothers think of this most recent development? It seems like vigils on their lawn would be the least of their worries. We know that five and eight year old children register fear, have nightmares and are totally dependent on their parents for their survival.

So I have to wonder what Jeremy and Deborah are telling them about the disappearance of their little sister.

I also wonder if they have asked, “What would you do if I was kidnapped?”

source

How would you like Jeremy and Deborah to be your parents? It would be like hovering off the edge of a cliff with a severe case of vertigo and no one to hold onto.

I truly hope the Custody Judge orders counseling for the whole family - maybe they're getting it already? I would hope so. For all their sakes.

peace

There's some confirmed yet unconfirmed (by MSM) sources LE has been at the River today mapping, checking, etc.

I'll bring more as I hear more - for now there's some info on FB but that's all so far.

If nothing else it gives (me) a sense the police have not given up and that's such a good sign all the way around! Though I hope they don't find any remains - it's still good to know they're out there looking!

peace

reply to post by silo13

How would you like Jeremy and Deborah to be your parents? It would be like hovering off the edge of a cliff with a severe case of vertigo and no one to hold onto.

oh..I could think of far worse parents to have than Lisa and Jeremy.. but once again the post is proof of the biased stuff that you post.

Nope.. There are far worse parents in my opinion.. some who have much more education.. and put on a fine show for the public.. but behind closed doors.. ewwww.

reply to post by silo13

Affecting Reality

Kindergartners may be clear about what is real or pretend, but they still use magical thinking to explain what they see as reactions to their own behavior. They might believe that their desires have an effect on others. For example, "My brother fell off the swing set because I was angry." Or, that actions can actually affect the world in magical ways, as in "Step on a crack, you'll break your mother's back." The danger here is that sometimes children will use magical thinking to blame themselves for things that happen in their family lives. A child at this stage might blame herself for a parent's illness, thinking that it happened because she was "bad." And often, a 5-year-old will keep this kind of magical thinking to herself. In cases such as these, it's important to tell a child that there was nothing anybody "did" that caused this particular event to happen.

Exploring Cause and Effect

Kindergartners can use magical thinking to explain cause and effect. They might offer what seem like illogical explanations of how the natural world works. But often their thinking, while not totally accurate, is based on some experience or observation. It is as if they are putting two and two together and not necessarily getting four, but are still using important thinking skills. When a group of children observed a rainbow outside the classroom window, one little girl said she thought "rainbows are in the sky because the trees blow."

From www.scholastic.com...

Not really much I can add to the above, except to point out that the 5-turned-6 half brother, Deborah's other son, is at the age where he is very vulnerable to suggestion, and if at any time recently he felt jealous or angry at Lisa, and wished she would go away and let him be his mom's darling again (a very normal thing for kids who've just recently 'acquired' another sibling), what has happened to her now is quite possibly creating in his mind that he is guilty, simply for feeling those things, and wishing that thing.

This is why it really disturbs me that the parents did not "ask" the boys how the interview went. I am confident that the specialist did a fine job in not leading the boys' answers, not adding further trauma; or she would not have been there. Child interaction and "play therapy" and "narrative therapy" are very powerful tools for assisting little kids with understanding chaos and dealing with trauma in their lives.

If I could make an appointment and have a private meeting with ANY of the persons affected by Lisa's disappearance, it would be those two boys. So that I could validate their feelings, facilitate their processing of their little sister's disappearance, answer their questions, let them know that they are going to be protected and loved no matter what, listen to their fears and reactions, and assure them that adults can care, and can understand how they feel, and will care for them nonetheless.

(Of course, I would have to believe those things were actually going to take place in ther lives before I would suggest them, so as not to give them false hope....and I certainly hope and pray that those things WILL happen for them.)

(Mini) Update to date - Almost 2 months Later!

- Police do not believe an 'intruder' came into the home through the 'window'.

- Jersey has been ruled out (along with the rest of the flop-house-gang).

- ALL eyewitnesses have been ruled out.

- As for the neighbors husband picked out of photos and lineups by eyewitnesses? The 'witness' was reported to have been tainted by many on this thread though not confirmed by LE. Regardless ALL eyewitness have been ruled as unsubstantial or leads that did not ‘pan out’

‘Eyewitness’ - eyewitness to what? Nothing but conflicting statements that change and have changed repeatedly over time.

So, there's really no 'good' or new info - other than what points to an 'inside' job, or a very lucky 'someone' who abducted a baby by walking in the front door, turning on the lights (or leaving them on) stealing cell phones, making calls, yadda yadda, and all that other info that, well, doesn't make it look to good for the family. Who by the way have not talked to the police for (around) 50 days now and 'cause they're 'getting back to normal life'.

So, we're right back to square one again or so it seems.

Maybe the police will find something in their checking on the River - if so I'll add links and updates when I find them.

Speaking of links: I've posted this disclaimer before but it's been a while and people tend to be forgetful so here goes again, it's been a while so I might as well --------->

Concerning the links, videos, pictures and information I bring to the thread.

I post what’s 'out there'. That’s what a host of a thread does. Do not assume just because I post information I either agree or disagree to the content of links I include here. It’s not for me to censor the information coming into this thread. I’m no-one's ‘Nanny’. I post what I find regardless of my opinion of the contents. Period.

Now that that's out of the way for another few pages? I like to remember one thing and I keep it in my mind and heart for Lisa. Time heals all things they say. Time also doles out the rope for people to hang themselves - so, I'm on the side of time. All that means is we're back to 'wait and see'

peace

reply to post by silo13

Wow Silo, thank you for posting that. What a scathing assessment from someone who understands the terror behind a child's kidnapping.

The part that got me was:

How normal can life be if your home has been broken into, your infant has been kidnapped and remains missing and your other children are left to believe that an evil boogeyman who has already stolen your sister remains at large?

Source

I'm with you, I do hope the members of this family are receiving counseling (and not just from lawyers).

And thank you for the post about the search at the river.

OiO

reply to post by wildtimes

If I could make an appointment and have a private meeting with ANY of the persons affected by Lisa's disappearance, it would be those two boys.

I would love to talk to them as well.. to let them know that many people will say hurtful things about their parents, and this will continue on for a long time.. but that they should remain strong.. and not everyone is out to paint their mom or dad as criminals...or terrible parents.

I'm sure Debbie and Jeremy have shown them that they are still loved and cared for...and there could be a very good reason the Irwins did not question the boys. But to imply that they did not let those boys know that despite what went on in the interview that they are loved and cherished is again more assumption based on facts we do not have.

reply to post by wildtimes

what has happened to her now is quite possibly creating in his mind that he is guilty, simply for feeling those things, and wishing that thing.

I continue to hope and pray the family is getting counseling - if not for all of them than at the very least for the two boys. If they're not in counseling now it's unspeakably neglectful of the parents - IMO - and I could give a rats arse if the lawyers like it or not. I so hope they are!!! Those boys need to be talking to someone and if the parents are not providing a trained professional for them to open up to - I hope the Judge will insist on it!!!

Thanks for the info.

reply to post by silo13

reported to have been tainted by many on this thread

Wait. What?? He was tainted by ..... OH! I get it. Not that he was reading this thread and decided to become an "eyewitness"....that he has been, by many on this thread, discredited.
Right?

Just to clarify.