Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

Originally posted by wildtimes
I'm thinking they probably don't hire high-profile sleazy attorneys who defended mobsters until the time the mobsters stopped using them; or who defend corrupt police; or defend men who make young women disappear; or who are tied to bribes, adultery with a client's wife, and keeping their own records artificially "clean" by calling in favors.

edit on 25-11-2011 by wildtimes because: to add link

Food for thought... The family has gone through a couple of lawyers, and the reasons given revolve around speaking to media and other issues.

People need to understand that when a lawyer is retained, they are subject to lawyer-client confidentiality. Its entirely possible that lawyers that were "let go" actually resigned on their own. If the Erwins disclosed facts to the lawyers that implicated themselves in the death of baby Lisa, its entirely possible the lawyers decided they dont want to represent the clients.

Because of the confidentiality though, the lawyers cannot disclose why they dont want to represent the family. They also want to avoid making any comments to media that would indicate the possibility of guilt or deception. The only way to do that is for the lawyers to be "fired". Any other action aside from the "Erwins firing the lawyers" would create a media frenzy and could jeopradize the investigation and any potential court actions.

Food for thought...

Originally posted by schmae
But while we're at it what's a good well known publicly used term for a mom who hasn't enough money to pay her cell phone bill but can afford a big box of wine to drink? Drinks it to the point of blacking out and admits to doing so a few times a week?

Suspect??

I just want to say one thing about all psychological evaluations in this thread and by anyone involved.

in my experience, people are nowhere as good at understanding psychology as they would like to be.
Many people in that field get people completely backwards in the end BECAUSE of trying so hard to set up and facilitate an understanding. People can be much more complex than what the field wants to make them out to be- a piece of cake for them.

almost like looking at a negative photograph.

this thing about rooting for the investigator regardless of how they are brow beating you? pffft

what if it has cultivated so much distrust in investigators that the person who honestly wants to find their child thinks that the investigation itself is going wrong, taking way too long and getting hung up when time is a definite factor.

that person could easily separate themselves from thinking these people are not the end all be all and give up on them completely, not just as professionals... but people.

Some cops are crooked and sorry and this is a fact. Not all innocent people will put their complete trust in an investigator.... especially a FAILING one.

reply to post by BlackSatinDancer


Valid points...

Not all parents of "kidnapping / abduction" incidents are innocent either.

As with law enforcement and being corrupt, final determination requires an investigation.

reply to post by Xcathdra

The urgency to find Lisa gone (if the family's actions are an indication) do you not think now comes the hard part?
By this I mean the hard part of waiting.
I also infer to this being the 'hardest time' for the 'Brad-Wins' - In my opinion.
It strikes me Deborah (especially) can 'pull herself together' in a public crisis. When people are 'watching'.
I don't know how she'll fare when the day after day after day of 'normalcy' sinks in.
I ask the same question of Jeremy.
How will they fare when endless days stretch before them? The stress of life. Etc?
If anything, I believe THAT will 'crack' them.
That is, if there is anything to 'crack'.

peace

reply to post by silo13

I don't know how she'll fare when the day after day after day of 'normalcy' sinks in. I ask the same question of Jeremy. How will they fare when endless days stretch before them? The stress of life. Etc? If anything, I believe THAT will 'crack' them. That is, if there is anything to 'crack'.

I'm assuming everyone deals with trauma like this in different ways as time goes on...

Perhaps there were some that were totally innocent, but as time wore on the deep seated trauma they have endured continues to bubble up, and watching events of another child abduction triggers an emotional breakdown.

I honestly don't think how they fare the endless days after are an indication of guilt or innocence.

I also think there could be other parents out there who have been guilty of harming their child or spouse, yet continue not to "crack"as time goes...lying to themselves, and hiding the truth, while they pretend still that they are victims.

Human psychology is much to complicated with every individual to say how they react much later on ,is an indication of guilt or innocence.

Sabrina Aisenberg vanished days before Thanksgiving. Her parents, Steve and Marlene, were indicted in 1999 on federal charges that they lied about their daughter's disappearance. Those charges were later dropped when a judge questioned the validity of wiretaps used to collect information on the Aisenbergs.

from >>www.cbsnews.com...

This case will be like that case..cold.

There must be dozens of these type of cases over the years. Its just to easy to get rid of a kid to figure these mysteries out sometimes.

And, of course Lawyers lots of Lawyers in the mix (basically the right of the accused to NOT TALK)

I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by gabby2011

 

The story of Deborah Bradley is certainly heart breaking. If we remove what we know or think we know of her in the last 7 weeks and just look at the life before, it's really sad. I like to think of people like her as a child. When you see a little child being neglected or abused and losing a parent early and whatever else may have happened, you KNOW they will struggle as an adult. Do they have the skills and presence of mind to say '' maybe i shouldnt' have kids before i get myself sorted out real good with counseling'' ? Of course not. I'm sure no one in her family thought , after her mom's death, that the kids needed some grief counseling at the LEAST. So while I cannot condone anything she's done , I can certainly understand how she came about. Wanting to drink to release herself from the prison of her mind a few times a week is likely the only way she could cope. It's a shame the way things have gone now for her and I am sure in her own mind , in the quiet times, she feels absolute despair. And for that , I am sad for her

Even if she harmed Lisa on accident I am sad for her. Her actions since have made her look guilty of WORSE than an accident but I don't think it's more than an accident.
Guess the holidays have me feeling a little extra sentimental. I do believe she needs justice absolutely for wahteve she's done and I do believe she is hiding KEY facts at this time. But I think the whole story of baby Lisa started with teh tragedy that happened to a baby Deborah many years ago

I agree she does have a very sad past..and it must be very difficult for a child to lose her mother at 15.. while she is the oldest.

I also agree that if she is responsible for lisa death , that it was an accident....and that is IF.

The sightings ..the fire in the dumpster..the story of the police throwing burnt clothes in front of her.. all seem to point elsewhere to me..

Debbie and Jeremy could also think that Lisa is dead.. because of evidence that has been shown ..such as the burnt clothes. Maybe they even had a spiritual contact with her in some way that makes them sure she has passed.

This would explain why they may not be so anxious on "finding" her.. , as well as the possibility that they have been told they will harm the investigation if they search.

Search underway this morning, as per previous info, based on the psychic's tips.
News vid re the psychic and planned search

After a tip from a Texas psychic, a group plans to search an area near a defunct Kansas City casino in hopes of finding clues about missing baby Lisa Irwin.

Supposedly they are on their way at this moment...without the police and without the psychic. However, it rained all night, and is overcast and blustery today. Nothing on the local news yet this morning that I've found (but just got started). The vid offers up the police's "reason" for not attending. I would prefer a statement by them, but oh well.

I haven't looked into the details on the psychic's blog yet. Has anyone been tracking that part of it? She appears to be sincerely interested in just doing the right thing; for the right reasons. It would be so great if she happened to have the clue to settle the issue. I myself am skeptical of psychics, but certainly believe there may well be some who are legit.
Here is a site listing a few that have (according to the article) good track records with police.
www.victorzammit.com...

PSYCHIC DETECTIVES
GIFTED PSYCHICS AND MEDIUMS WHO PRODUCE RELEVANT PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AND HELP THE POLICE SOLVE CRIME. WHAT SENIOR AND OTHER POLICE OFFICERS STATE ABOUT FORENSIC PSYCHICS:

True, only some very special and gifted 'Forensic Psychics' and mediums have the psychic accuracy skills, ability and the talent to help the police solve crimes.

What follows are what senior, highly experienced police officers themselves said about psychics - confirming that gifted 'psychics' - and 'mediums' produce physical evidence to help the police to close police files and cold cases - see below:

It is accepted there are some police who do not seek the assistance of gifted psychics and mediums - and are left with many unsolved crimes. The only reason why other more intelligent, more insightful and more open minded police officers seek the assistance of gifted psychics regularly is because these police officers have repeatedly been successful in obtaining phsysical evidence from gifted Forensic Psychics and mediums to solve crime.

The author opens by "implying" that police who don't seek their assistance are "less intelligent, less insightful, and more open-minded" with his backhanded praise for those that do makes me wonder about his credibility. Slanted from the get-go to portray skeptic police as "lesser than".

Agent X, can you provide us some insight into how the Missouri police in general view psychics? And by way of comparison, how they view sniffer dogs?

And one other facet came to mind...the fact that the wealthy benefactor offered the $100,000 reward and Stanton's fees, if not also Joe's...where they certainly had the OPTION of hiring a psychic forensic expert INSTEAD, or in conjunction.

Just wondering what thought patterns prompt people making generous gifts whening choosing the "type" of gift to give, when there are multiple options.

No need to attack!! Here are my answers FOR THE TIME BEING: Might I believe otherwise later? Yes. Absolutely.
EDIT TO ADD PRE-EMPTIVE INFO RE MY OWN OPINIONS:
Yes, I believe psychics do exist and a few may be highly skilled and accurate.
Yes, I believe sniffer dogs can and do prove their abilities when trained and handled by experts.
Yes, I believe some police officers are more open-minded than others.
and;
Yes, I think it's an odd choice to hire two "infamous" characters when one could have hired anyone of their "fame" status.

reply to post by wildtimes

Just wondering what thought patterns prompt people making generous gifts whening choosing the "type" of gift to give, when there are multiple options.

Who's to say they haven't used other options?

more assumptions..

Also curious as to why agent "X" would know about the internal goings on of the missouri police, and if they use psychics.. is this where he works?

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Just wondering what thought patterns prompt people making generous gifts whening choosing the "type" of gift to give, when there are multiple options.

Who's to say they haven't used other options?

I didn't say that. Have they? Do you know?

more assumptions..

Knock it off, gabby.

Also curious as to why agent "X" would know about the internal goings on of the missouri police, and if they use psychics.. is this where he works?

Yes, but I am done doing your homework.
Go back and read through his posts again. My answers would just be ammo for you.

reply to post by wildtimes


knock it off? why? because it seemed that you were making assumptions by statements such as these?

And one other facet came to mind...the fact that the wealthy benefactor offered the $100,000 reward and Stanton's fees, if not also Joe's...where they certainly had the OPTION of hiring a psychic forensic expert INSTEAD, or in conjunction.

Just wondering what thought patterns prompt people making generous gifts whening choosing the "type" of gift to give, when there are multiple options.

Seems to me fairly clear what you were implying.. but forgive me if I read into it incorrectly..

what exactly were you implying?

Yes, but I am done doing your homework.

I have never asked you to do my homework..and as far as I can see you have added nothing of significance that others haven't already added...so forget the you've done my homework BS..

On the justice for lisa fb page, ( i know he's a weirdo and who knows what's true there etc, ) they listed a connection between the wealthy female benefactor / wild bill/ joe t . I glossed over it but didn't put much into it because I assume it was speculation. It's interesting but without knowing whether it 's true or not, it's hard to care too much. On that page he 'accuses' kristi schiller of being that benefactor. I use ACCUSE because it may have a 50% chance of being true. But I will say he sussed Dane's name before it was public, so I'm not sure where he gets his info.

reply to post by silo13


The lack of leads, lack of credible evidence, lack of credible stories, changing time lines, wanting evrything to go back to normal.

What I think -
Something occured to the child, and mom knows about it.
She is trying to cover it up, and doing a bad job of it.
She did not expect all the media attention, and this is a fact since tohers have made the comments about other missing children not making the news.
Her comments about wanting things to go back to normal is designed to deflect attention, even though it actually will increase the microscope she is under.

To date, there is no evidence to support her version of events.


This leads to one road with multiple possibilities -
She keeps quiet and continues on, without charges due to lack of evidence - child never found
She keeps quiet but cracks, body is found, mother and others charged with a crime.

these are the only 2 plausible scenarios I see coming out of this mess.

reply to post by gabby2011


An accidental death revolves around the responsible party owning up to what occured.

Trying to claim an accidental death after a coverup doesnt work out all that well, especially since accidental requires no premeditation to cover it up.

New search near Sams Town casino.

www.kmbc.com...

Jersey was in a casino that night? Or was that ever confirmed? Hmmmmmmmmmm
Same casino?

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Just wondering what thought patterns prompt people making generous gifts whening choosing the "type" of gift to give, when there are multiple options.

Who's to say they haven't used other options?

more assumptions..

Also curious as to why agent "X" would know about the internal goings on of the missouri police, and if they use psychics.. is this where he works?

edit on 26-11-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

If you spent more time reading posts and less time trying to obfuscate and walk back your comments while making assinine comments about people / events without knowing the facts, you would know I am a police officer and that I am one in the state of missouri (Class A), as I have already explained, in addition to being certified in a second state.

As far as psychics go there is no set standard for their use, which means law enforcement can determine on their own if they wish to use one or not.

On the other side of the fence the case law at the local / state level in missouri requires more than psychic visions in order to be accepeted as admissable in court. They can be used as a "tip" though, allowing law enforcement to investigate the tip and to establish cause based on that "tip" and subsequent investigation using established and accepted law enforcement standards for the collection and processing of evidence. This guarantees the evidence / information meets minimum standards to be used in and accepted by the court.

Why bother to ask these questions now, since you have made it very clear you are right and everyone else is wrong.

Originally posted by schmae
New search near Sams Town casino.

www.kmbc.com...

Jersey was in a casino that night? Or was that ever confirmed? Hmmmmmmmmmm
Same casino?

from my understanding the Casino is closed down and no longer in use. The boat was removed after being sold so all that remains are the parking deck and some buildings. There should be no reason for an individual to be at the property unless they are employed by the owners to keep an eye on things, and to my knowledge thats not the case with Jersey.

usually Casinos have a very decent surveillance system in place. Im not sure if its present or in use though since the property is not in operation. However, its another place to follow leads up with.

The question is why would jersey need to be at that location and for what purpose?

reply to post by Xcathdra


''''An accidental death revolves around the responsible party owning up to what occured.

Trying to claim an accidental death after a coverup doesnt work out all that well, especially since accidental requires no premeditation to cover it up. '''

Totally agreed. I do believe it was an accident, but I think at this point TODAY if she were to fess up, it would look so UNaccidental due to all that's happened since.

reply to post by Xcathdra


From another forum I was reading today, a local states that the one-time Sam's Club casino has been put to reuse by Cerner Corporation, which is HQ here (its a global health-IT firm). It's a huge employer here, and has its own campus.
Also, the member who stated knowledge of it said the entire casino grounds and parking have been absorbed by Cerner and put to other use. This is a well-known truth in the KC area, and the member questioned the motive of the local media to deliberately leave the impression that it is an abandoned facility, rather than clarifying that its at least partially in use on a daily business basis.

I believe Jersey was spotted at a currently operative casino -- possibly Harrah's?? I'd have to check again.

Thanks for the insight into psychics and their "standing" with LEO in Missouri. On that note, someone else pondered somewhere (not here) whether or not, should her tips turn out to be accurate, she might even become a suspect herself. Can you comment on the veracity of that?

Do you think they would already have "vetted" her when she first piped up? Interviewed? Or will she now be quietly marked down as a person for possible interest? I've no idea. Seeing a she's a school security officer, and has apparently been correct in one other investigation where she had some sudden insights, though, perhaps she has established credibility already among LEOs where she is known.

Is it likely that KCPD would have contacted her local LE in Texas to inquire about her; and/or the unit with which she previously provided valid insights?

And as for the benefector -- does the KCPD have access to knowing who it is? What are the ground-rules for including or excluding each player in a case like this?? I know the defense team is entitled to "discovery" where the police are required to show their hand well in advance of any court proceedings or filings, or at least before hearings. But, am I correctly understanding that the defense is under no obligation to divulge tips they may have acquired independently and/or investgated?