Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

Originally posted by silo13
Something else to consider also.
How long does it take to walk/run a third of a mile and toss something into a river, and run back?

Yup - which is exactly why the police are trying to establish a solid and complete timeline of events. Nail down the time line we know when the child was last seen alive and by whom, as well as being able to determine any modes of travel (like you suggested).

Originally posted by silo13
On another point.

I've read many times the police do what they can - using the media as a tool - to put suspects at ease. Once at ease and as time passes and people become lax they tend to loosen up. To grow confident or at least complacent.

Is it my opinion that's what we're seeing? Yes.

Keeping this in mind - do you think from there the police would tap phones, etc, to get the information they suspect is out there?

Thank you,

I would say yes to wire taps if they have PC to believe more than one person might be involved, even if that other party doesnt realize it. Ms. Erwin calling up a family member or freind just to talk and revealing information as to what happened. If that party doesnt report the info, they could possibly be charged for it (withholding information relevant to the case).

The longer this drags on, resolution of the case keeps getting smaller and smaller. Eventually the police will hit a point in the investigation where the only way they can get new search or arrest warrants is if they provide fresh evidence that has not been submitted before. The system is designed in that manner to protect people from witch hunts / drumheads / unlawful prosecution. Its the responsibility of the state to make and prove their case, and the longer this goes their case against the erwins becomes less and less probable.

Reminds me of the phrase -
Hurry up and wait.

reply to post by Xcathdra

I dont need a half dozen pages to make any assumptions. All I needed to do was read a few of your posts to see that not only do you not understand what law enforcement is or how it works, you understand even less about the procedures and laws in place when an investigation is on going.

These are suggestions I made in some posts, and by far don't cover everything I have suggested on this thread..

But of course you have the right to read a few posts and make up your mind and assume.. hopefully police investigators don't work like that.. because they would be missing out on a lot of other info..

The theories and speculations on this thread have really been extreme, by many members.. without proof.... so I hardly think you calling me out on the blame game is fair.. and once again something I'm sure not all police do.

I agree the goal is to find the truth, regardless of whether or not we like what that truth may be. However, in the search for that truth we shouldnt continually step on the necks of the people we dont agree with or understand.

yes..the goal is to find the truth.. and we only have the system of law to rely on doing that for us.. For the sake of baby Lisa.. we must rely on them for finding the truth and presenting it properly through the legal channels.Lets hope that is enough for finding baby Lisa.

By the way ..from my first or second post

Here's hoping the truth is seriously sought out, and it results in finding the child...and what really happened...which ever the case may be.

Why are you siding with suspicions against the parents now?.. you seem to agree painting them with the same brush as others..yet you are so vehement that police are doing their jobs well, and should not be questioned..?

I have the right to question how police do their work, as well as motivations behind why they do things...!!!

Police have proven over and over again ..that they are not always great at getting to the truth..and there is proof out there that they cover things up . It's happened here where I live..so I assume it could happen in KC as well.

I am not saying with certainty this is the case... but any one with half a brain knows its a possibility. ..and I have a right to point out that possibility .

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Michelle129th

 

Jeremy was verified as being at work...on camera until 3:30 am. 15 min drive home puts us at 3:45am...past all of the phone calls made, so that rules him out completely

Unless they lied about the phones being stollen?

peace

edit on 21-11-2011 by silo13 because: (no reason given)

The other thing to look at is what time the first 911 call came in about the missing child. If I remember right it was about 4-4:30 am. It is entirely possible to have an alabis and still be involved in a crime. That situation goes back to the timelines, which we have discrepancies in. Just because a person states they last saw a child at such and such time, doesnt neccissarily mean they are being truthful.

There are to many discrepancies in the timeline, in my opinion, to take it seriously at this point, or to even rule the parents out as possible suspects.

We were talking specifically about JI using the phones....I also don't completely rule him out and have often wondered why LE havent given him a lie detector as they did the mom. BUT...in terms of the post you were replying to we were discussing the possibility of JI having made the phone calls. I do believe (but will have to go check) there was verification that dad was shown on camera at 3:30 am at his job...since all phone calls were made prior to that time and within the 1/3 mile radius of the home, that would rule him out as using the phones (IF indeed that was verified). However, that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't guilty of either knowing something or being directly involved.

I still can't wrap my head around the phone calls and just wish we had some sort of information. It doesn't make sense for anyone involved to have been using those phones...even Deborah herself (IMO). I get that she may have been trying to check voicemail...but why check it, attempt access to the internet not once but 5 times and then check voicemail again. The only reasoning (IMO) would be that she was indeed drunk/drugged and was having trouble using the phone...but then that goes back to how on earth she would plan the "perfect" baby disappearing act without leaving some sort of trail.

Thank goodness I'm not a detective...my mind gets messed up too easily

Michelle

Here's something a bit scary. It could very well have nothing to do with this case, and doesn't have the same MO, but what craziness

Man Questioned In Area Abduction Attempts

KANSAS CITY, Kan. -- Police said a man arrested after an overnight chase is being questioned about his possible involvement in three attempted child abductions. Read more: www.kmbc.com...

He seems to be targeting older girls outside of their home so not exactly close to Lisa Irwin's situation. But does make you wonder. From the map provided it's not all that far from Lisa's home.

reply to post by Michelle129th


I would be surprised if the guy in custody for the attempted kidnapping has any involvement with baby lisa (possible, but I seriously doubt it). When it comes to kidnappings we start to move into the realm of behavioral analysis, psyche profiles etc.

If a person is targeting children chances are they will be similar in appearence, close to the same age etc etc etc. Usually there is a past history with the suspect as well. Its bad enough to have a child kidnapped, it gets worse when the person who did it has unresolved issues from their past.

An answer for your question about a lie detector test -
* - A person cannot be forced to take a lie detector test - its volunteer only.
* - Lie detector test results are not admissible in a court of law.
* - There are ways to answer questions with a lie and not have that lie show up / be detected.

reply to post by Xcathdra

When it comes to kidnappings we start to move into the realm of behavioral analysis, psyche profiles etc.

I'd love to see what a behavioral analyst would determine from the little we know in the Lisa case.
Take the parents out of it.
Who would do such a thing, what age, sex, etc.
All informed/learned assumption but interesting anyway I'm sure.

Thanks

reply to post by Michelle129th


I was thinking about the phones as well and came up with an alternative theory.

What if the phone calls are a distraction? The police have spent a lot of time on the phone issue, who had it, when, where, was it active or not etc etc etc. Since all of those questions (or the bulk anyways) remain unanswered, and we throw the possibility of multiple people using it, it creates a situation where the police are forced to look at multiple people. That becomes an issue since the phone calls would be used as possible evidence during any trial (hypothetical for the Erwins being involved).

The PA would submit and argue in court who is responsible for the phone. The PA would try to tie the phone, and subsequent calls, to the Erwins. Defense can counter that argument by saying there were multiple people coming and going so any person could have used the phone without the Erwins knowing.

The PA can argue Ms. Erwin made the call, and the defense can argue Ms. Erwin was asleep at that time. If they (police) cant explain the phone issue it will create doubt should a jury hear the information (again based on a hypothetical ith Ms. Erwin ).

thoughts?

reply to post by Xcathdra


HEY X , I agree with what you've posted here. BUT once in a blue moon these weirdo things happen.
I saw this show on Discovery ID a few weeks back and I've been thinking a lot about it since. It is almost impossible to think a stranger came in and took the baby for no apparent reason. If you are unfamiliar with this case, please read this abcnews.go.com...
Mom and son in home and son is killed violently with a knife and mom is alive and says a stranger came in and killed her son. Well no one believes her and honestly I think I would NOT either. It's unbelievable right?
Turns out a stranger, absolute no ties to the family whatsoever stranger, wandered in and killed her son. He's been doing it a lot with various age and sex victims.
So it CAN happen. It's very very very rare but it can happen.

reply to post by gabby2011


Gabby, have you ever heard of the Darlie Routier case in Texas? You should look into it and tell me what you think. Entire family at home, stranger breaks in and kills 2 of the three children while dad is upstairs asleep. Mom is in prison for it right now. I'd be interested in your take on it.

reply to post by schmae

Gabby, have you ever heard of the Darlie Routier case in Texas? You should look into it and tell me what you think. Entire family at home, stranger breaks in and kills 2 of the three children while dad is upstairs asleep. Mom is in prison for it right now. I'd be interested in your take on it.

Oh Schmae! Start a thread! I'd love to join it. I'm sure you'd do a bang-up job and it would be great to have a case like that to theorize over - something to really sink the old teeth into.

About Lisa =

I was thinking earlier - and horrified by the thought - what if this is the new 'thrill' of the week for teens? Go into a home where no one knows you, commit a crime for no other reason than the thrill of it. In my mind that would explain a lot - including the random weirdness of taking the phones.

We see teens doing some awful weird stuff lately. Little girls sitting on and killing kittens while filming it for YouTube. The boy the other day breaking onto the zoo to feed some animals to other animals... See what I'm getting at?

Could Lisa's disappearance be part of a new FREAK/THRILL/RUSH for youths who have too much time on their hands?

Just thinking out-loud.

peace

Originally posted by gabby2011
But of course you have the right to read a few posts and make up your mind and assume.. hopefully police investigators don't work like that.. because they would be missing out on a lot of other info..

Once again an assumption on your part and again suggesting law enforcement cant do their job in a competent manner.

Originally posted by gabby2011
The theories and speculations on this thread have really been extreme, by many members.. without proof.... so I hardly think you calling me out on the blame game is fair.. and once again something I'm sure not all police do.

I am calling you out because you are continually making assumptions about the investigation and the methods being used by the Police without a basic understanding of those methods. Its one thing to question a method law enforcement uses. Its something else entirely when you assume without doing your due dilligence and at least trying to research the parts you have issues with to put police actions into focus.

Originally posted by gabby2011
yes..the goal is to find the truth.. and we only have the system of law to rely on doing that for us.. For the sake of baby Lisa.. we must rely on them for finding the truth and presenting it properly through the legal channels.Lets hope that is enough for finding baby Lisa.

Actually, in addition to relying on law enforcement, Law Enforcement has to rely on the information provided to them by the family. Without that cooperation the police will hit a road block, which is exactly what just happened with this case.

Originally posted by gabby2011
Why are you siding with suspicions against the parents now?.. you seem to agree painting them with the same brush as others..yet you are so vehement that police are doing their jobs well, and should not be questioned..?

Respectfully, if you have to ask the question, then no answer from me will suffice.

Originally posted by gabby2011
I have the right to question how police do their work, as well as motivations behind why they do things...!!!

Which is fine, however you need to understand the methods, laws and procedures the police use. If you dont have that understanding, how can you question the manner in which police do thier jobs?

Originally posted by gabby2011
Police have proven over and over again ..that they are not always great at getting to the truth..and there is proof out there that they cover things up . It's happened here where I live..so I assume it could happen in KC as well.

You really need to check your paranoia / conspiracy theories at the door. You seem to attribute negative qualities to anything you dont understand that is linked to law enforcement. During an active investigation, you wont get a lot of information or facts. Its not because the police are trying to hide anything / cover something up. Releasing detailed information can adversely affect any court proceedings.

Originally posted by gabby2011
I am not saying with certainty this is the case... but any one with half a brain knows its a possibility. ..and I have a right to point out that possibility .

Actually you are and have been saying / implying / accusing the police from the get go in this case, and you have pointed it out in your posts time and time again.

Just because you dont understand the ins and outs of a criminal investigation does not mean law enforcement is hiding / obfuscating / framing / lying / ushering in the appocalypse.

reply to post by silo13

We see teens doing some awful weird stuff lately. Little girls sitting on and killing kittens while filming it for YouTube. The boy the other day breaking onto the zoo to feed some animals to other animals... See what I'm getting at?

How UTTERLY sick and revolting. Ew. I hadn't seen those, and could've lived my entire life without even hearing about them. Psychotic, competely abhorrent.

Could Lisa's disappearance be part of a new FREAK/THRILL/RUSH for youths who have too much time on their hands?

This question reminds me of urban rumors / legends that have come and gone about gang-banger initiation or hazing things. Like they had to mug someone or rape someone before they could be a "member." Sick stuff.

Did anyone read this?? abcnews.go.com...

I'll repost to be redundant Just because it is possible for a stranger to show up. It seems SO unlikely in this case, but in that case it seemed unlikely too. I would TOTALLY think the mom did it . There's a segment of society who is absolute psychotic and we have no idea where these people are or if they are living next door to us. Then there's the group who everyone knows is psychotic and when they do something like MURDER , you wonder why didn't anyone get these folks some HELP before they became a danger to society.
Thank You Pharmaceuticals !!!!!!!!

Originally posted by schmae
Did anyone read this?? abcnews.go.com...

I'll repost to be redundant

Just because it is possible for a stranger to show up. It seems SO unlikely in this case, but in that case it seemed unlikely too. I would TOTALLY think the mom did it . There's a segment of society who is absolute psychotic and we have no idea where these people are or if they are living next door to us. Then there's the group who everyone knows is psychotic and when they do something like MURDER , you wonder why didn't anyone get these folks some HELP before they became a danger to society.
Thank You Pharmaceuticals !!!!!!!!

reply to post by Michelle129th


And the exact randomness of this roving stranger coming into her house in the middle of the night is EXACTLY why he almost got away with it and mom would have been in jail forever. SO Deb looks totally almost certainly guilty of something in my book, but imagine if some similar type fellow just happened into that house while they were drinking out front? It CAN and DOES happen. Weird !

BTW Michelle, fascinating read you posted above. This guilty man in this link I showed is why I woudlnt' discount age being a factor in the link you showed. A true crazed killer is not interested in any specific age or group or sex. He's just looking for an opportunity to get at anyone. But if so, where is the baby

I hope somebody breaks soon....there is less and less being done in this case I understand there are other cases that need to be looked at too but how heartbreaking this is...

Kansas City police disband command post in Lisa Irwin case Read more: www.kansascity.com...

reply to post by Xcathdra

Once again an assumption on your part and again suggesting law enforcement cant do their job in a competent manner.

I think there is enough evidence in many cases to prove that law enforcement has not always done their jobs in a competent manner.

I am calling you out because you are continually making assumptions about the investigation and the methods being used by the Police without a basic understanding of those methods. Its one thing to question a method law enforcement uses. Its something else entirely when you assume without doing your due dilligence and at least trying to research the parts you have issues with to put police actions into focus.

How can I research information that isn't available to me.. I wasn't there when the Irwin's were questioned...

I only know that two eye witnesses saw a bald man carrying a baby in the early hours of the morning..that jersey was bald, and known to be around that area often, as well as had links to Meagan wright. He also was known to break into homes in this area. Now he is in jail ,and was supposedly shuttled from jail to jail according to Jim Spellman so that he could not be tracked down by reporters requesting an interview.

Until all the facts come out about why the police did what they did.. it isn't easy to come up with the research to prove incompetence. The police may have basic methods as to how they do things.. saying they followed these basic methods to a T, and did everything according to the book , is something that none of us know at this time.

We can research the "methods" all we want.. but it still doesn't prove they were followed. Thats like thinking anyone who is in the position to teach the bible and spread the word of god , actually behaves like God would want them to. Thats how so many parents were fooled onto thinking their child was safe with a priest.

Actually, in addition to relying on law enforcement, Law Enforcement has to rely on the information provided to them by the family. Without that cooperation the police will hit a road block, which is exactly what just happened with this case.

They questioned them for a total of 18 to 30 hours.. you telling me that law enforcement who is doing their job with diligence can't get enough info in that amount of time? Also.. from evidence of what their lawyer has said.. they were harassing the parents..not questioning them.
And you assume this is what happened in this case...that because the police could not continue with the harassment of the parents separately , thats why the police don't have the answers??

Maybe had the police looked into other very possible suspects more closely , we might have an answer to what happened to baby Lisa.

Which is fine, however you need to understand the methods, laws and procedures the police use. If you dont have that understanding, how can you question the manner in which police do thier jobs?

because I'm not there to see if they are indeed going by those procedures....I could have all the understanding of methods, laws, and procedures .... that still doesn't give me evidence that they have done their jobs effectively and correctly. They hold all the cards.. they get to divulge what they want..they get to lie in their questioning..and s we don't know. Only that someone who could very well have taken baby Lisa is in jail on some other crime.. and is considered not a suspect.

You really need to check your paranoia / conspiracy theories at the door. You seem to attribute negative qualities to anything you dont understand that is linked to law enforcement. During an active investigation, you wont get a lot of information or facts. Its not because the police are trying to hide anything / cover something up. Releasing detailed information can adversely affect any court proceedings.

I understand that, and have mentioned it before.. hoping it was an explanation for their actions. As far as checking my conspiracy theories and paranoia at the door.. I think that what I know....and am aware of as far as some police being involved in very shady police work,and tactics.. as well as the "secrets" they keep regarding their personal life is just plain common sense.

Anyone who is so blind to believe that all police officers are lawful abiding stand up citizens , and that none of them would actually work cases for benefit of their "secret societies", really needs a reality check.

That's like believing no catholic Bishop, or any one in the hierarchy of that church could ever be associated with serious sin.

You can call me paranoid all you want .. I call it having my eyes opened .. because the corruption exists..and most of us are aware of it

reply to post by Xcathdra

Actually you are and have been saying / implying / accusing the police from the get go in this case, and you have pointed it out in your posts time and time again. Just because you dont understand the ins and outs of a criminal investigation does not mean law enforcement is hiding / obfuscating / framing / lying / ushering in the appocalypse.

You're wrong about me implying the police from the get go.. but it doesn't surprise me that you have your blinders on ..

and just because I don't understand the methods , etc... doesn't mean the police aren't missing something..or hiding something..

As far as the appocalypse goes, now you want to add exaggerations to your list.

Does it bother you that much when people don't kiss the ground the police walk on?.. .. is your cop ego so badly bruised by that?

Originally posted by Michelle129th
I hope somebody breaks soon....there is less and less being done in this case

I understand there are other cases that need to be looked at too but how heartbreaking this is...

Kansas City police disband command post in Lisa Irwin case Read more: www.kansascity.com...

I just saw this news Michelle and I agree it is heartbreaking. I understand the decision though.

Thanks for posting the article.

OiO

Originally posted by gabby2011
I think there is enough evidence in many cases to prove that law enforcement has not always done their jobs in a competent manner.

No kidding - The problem you seem to be having is you apply that view to all law enforcement. Look back through your posts for examples of that.

Originally posted by gabby2011
How can I research information that isn't available to me.. I wasn't there when the Irwin's were questioned...

Then how can you assume the police didnt do their job correctly?

Originally posted by gabby2011
I only know that two eye witnesses saw a bald man carrying a

Journalists arent allowed free access to people in jail, so im not sure where you get the moving him around because of media. Secondly, you again assume the police havent properly done their job with following up on that lead. Again, as you stated, you dont have all the info which means your assuming.

Originally posted by gabby2011
Until all the facts come out about why..

Yet any chance you get you accuse them of not doing their job correctly, and again I am pointing out that due to your lack of background and experience dealing with law, you are drawing the wrong conclusions. Whats worse is you dont appear to even care about that.

Originally posted by gabby2011
We can research the "methods" all we want.. but it still doesn't prove they were followed. Thats like thinking anyone who is in the position to teach the bible and spread the word of god , actually behaves like God would want them to. Thats how so many parents were fooled onto thinking their child was safe with a priest.

Again you are assuming the police arent doing their job simply because you dont understand something.

Originally posted by gabby2011

They questioned them for a total ...

Yet they refuse to allow thir children to be interviewed and refuse to be interviewed seperately. Length of questioning has nothing to do with police harrasment. Again, you assume improper action by the police because you dont understand.

Originally posted by gabby2011
And you assume this is what ..:

Nice deflection... Again, learn how the process works before opening your mouth.

Originally posted by gabby2011
Maybe had the police looked into other very possible suspects more closely , we might have an answer to what happened to baby Lisa.

So a few lines up you state you dont have all the facts, and now apparently you do. Once again you contradict yourself in your post. Again, you make assumptions about police activities when you have no clue how it works.

Originally posted by gabby2011
because I'm not there to see if..

and again.... another reversal and contradicition on your part. Since you have no experience about law enforcement, your assumption about their abilities are based on nothing more than your ignorance. By all means though feel free to continue with your arguments - they are entertaining.

Originally posted by gabby2011
I understand that, and have mentioned it before.. hoping it was an explanation for their actions. As far as checking my conspiracy theories and paranoia at the door.. I think that what I know....and am aware of as far as some police being involved in very shady police work,and tactics.. as well as the "secrets" they keep regarding their personal life is just plain common sense.

Apparently I forgot to mention ignorance and denial as well...

Originally posted by gabby2011
Anyone who is so blind to believe that all police officers are lawful abiding stand up citizens , and that none of them would actually work cases for benefit of their "secret societies", really needs a reality check.

Says the law enforcement and legal expert. When I need to learn what not to do with investigations, dont worry - you will be my first call.

Originally posted by gabby2011
That's like believing no catholic Bishop, or any one in the hierarchy of that church could ever be associated with serious sin.

It would also be like believing all civilians are incompetent, ignorant and incapable of forming an intelligent thought because of your posts in this thread.

Originally posted by gabby2011
You can call me paranoid all you want .. I call it having my eyes opened .. because the corruption exists..and most of us are aware of it

Again, attacking the police with no evidence or proof. I think you set a new record in your post with the number of times you contradicted yourself.. I agree your eyes are open, however you seem to be suffering from tunnel vision.

Please cite all of the corruption that exists in this case, since you continually invoke it.