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Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

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posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by schmae


ADOPTED BY MEDIA and can result in TRIAL BY MEDIA,,, but no legal definition.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


I think this is what we were discussing back quite a few pages. This whole thing turned into a media mess, I agree, makes one wonder.

IWOH




posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 11:41 AM
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reply to post by IwasOnceHappy
 

Whom was the first?


The police can choose to hold themselves to a higher standard, or they can jump down into the filth and wallow in it. At the moment the choice is theirs...



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by Dav1d
reply to post by IwasOnceHappy
 

Whom was the first?

The police can choose to hold themselves to a higher standard, or they can jump down into the filth and wallow in it. At the moment the choice is theirs...


Oh I agree with you about this video, as it is older. It still does not answer my questions earlier. The kids were interviewed and now the lawyers are all over the media, after stating they would not. Your chaos theory holds true to this.

As for a higher standard, I agree. My choice or words would not really been to wallow in the filth, but it could fit here. For the most part, we are getting information from the media, lawyers and other people. So I guess, in the choice listed above, by stating the parents were not cooperating with the police, the police did lower themselves to the media, lawyers and others.

IWOH
edit on 12-11-2011 by IwasOnceHappy because: Was going to edit. Decided to take out video link, no need for two.



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by IwasOnceHappy

reply to post by IwasOnceHappy

Oh I agree with you about this video, as it is older. It still does not answer my questions earlier. The kids were interviewed and now the lawyers are all over the media, after stating they would not. Your chaos theory holds true to this.

As for a higher standard, I agree. My choice or words would not really been to wallow in the filth, but it could fit here. For the most part, we are getting information from the media, lawyers and other people. So I guess, in the choice listed above, by stating the parents were not cooperating with the police, the police did lower themselves to the media, lawyers and others.

IWOH


Curious, I walk up to you and slap you? What is your reaction? As demonstrated on this thread, most people when they feel assaulted fight back. That's why this thread keeps having post removed. KCPD keeps assaulting the family, and naturally the family will fight back, the police are well aware of this reaction. The police choose to provoke, hoping to cause (I believe) a response that will be detrimently to the family. So far they have gotten what they want. The Police are very skilled at manipulation, at playing mind games, they have professionals working for them teaching them how to provoke. There are many examples throughout the country of the police provoking an incident into something more.

Funny how the police can hold a conference and point the finger at someone and it is accepted. A lawyer for the defense does the same thing, and there is outrage that the lawyer might be trying to create reasonable doubt!

At this point the police have made this a public trial for the family. They don't really have an option to sit back and do nothing. There is unequaled power here, and the police are turning up the pressure on this family, waiting for someone to go postal...



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by Dav1d

Originally posted by IwasOnceHappy

reply to post by IwasOnceHappy

Oh I agree with you about this video, as it is older. It still does not answer my questions earlier. The kids were interviewed and now the lawyers are all over the media, after stating they would not. Your chaos theory holds true to this.

As for a higher standard, I agree. My choice or words would not really been to wallow in the filth, but it could fit here. For the most part, we are getting information from the media, lawyers and other people. So I guess, in the choice listed above, by stating the parents were not cooperating with the police, the police did lower themselves to the media, lawyers and others.

IWOH



Curious, I walk up to you and slap you? What is your reaction? As demonstrated on this thread, most people when they feel assaulted fight back. That's why this thread keeps having post removed. KCPD keeps assaulting the family, and naturally the family will fight back, the police are well aware of this reaction. The police choose to provoke, hoping to cause (I believe) a response that will be detrimently to the family. So far they have gotten what they want. The Police are very skilled at manipulation, at playing mind games, they have professionals working for them teaching them how to provoke. There are many examples throughout the country of the police provoking an incident into something more.





I won't disagree about the police around the country provoking an incident into something more. As far as the "official" releases from the police on this case, you could be correct in meaning some might be playing mind games or manipulating, as far as assaulting, I don't know if I would use that term. We only go on what we have been fed or read, did you read somewhere that the police assaulted the family? I will go back over the news releases and video's to see just what the Official releases were from the police, besides the non cooperating.


Originally posted by Dav1d
Funny how the police can hold a conference and point the finger at someone and it is accepted. A lawyer for the defense does the same thing, and there is outrage that the lawyer might be trying to create reasonable doubt!


I find this funny also. Can you point me to where it is an outrage that the lawyer is trying to create reasonable doubt? I found none so far, only questions. This still did not answer the question, which only the key players in the case can answer. Why the media blitz all of a sudden. I asked before, I wonder what was said in the initial interviews and now with the specialist.


Originally posted by Dav1d
At this point the police have made this a public trial for the family. They don't really have an option to sit back and do nothing. There is unequaled power here, and the police are turning up the pressure on this family, waiting for someone to go postal...


I would agree with you that the police may have helped with their comments and actions about a public trial, I would be more inclined to look at the media on this about who is actually directing the public trial. You said yourself, in a few post back, was a media person putting a new spin on to already known information. I would believe the media wants their ratings and stardom, in which they will play this in any way to their advantage.

IWOH



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 01:12 PM
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You don't see, will not acknowledge that for some, the family's desire to have a lawyer is seen as guilt?
You don't see the posts in this thread, where it has been suggested, that the need to go outside Kansas city for a lawyer, a CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER is the same as/is as good as an admission of guilt?
I've been following this for sometime, now. I've been on other sites, been on other pages.
Everything was going along good (other than the KCPD wasn't taking the steps to find Lisa) until that video, KCPD through the first blow, with that video. They chose to use public shame, as a tool to get what they wanted. At that point they drew the line in the dirt. They cast the first stone.

So no I don't have an issue with the family lawyer using, or trying to use the media for their purpose. I don't think they will win this contest, and it is a diversion that I believe will delay the recovery of Lisa. But to sit quietly and let the bully beat you up? No I won't suggest that.



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by Dav1d
You don't see, will not acknowledge that for some, the family's desire to have a lawyer is seen as guilt?
You don't see the posts in this thread, where it has been suggested, that the need to go outside Kansas city for a lawyer, a CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER is the same as/is as good as an admission of guilt?
I've been following this for sometime, now. I've been on other sites, been on other pages.
Everything was going along good (other than the KCPD wasn't taking the steps to find Lisa) until that video, KCPD through the first blow, with that video. They chose to use public shame, as a tool to get what they wanted. At that point they drew the line in the dirt. They cast the first stone.

So no I don't have an issue with the family lawyer using, or trying to use the media for their purpose. I don't think they will win this contest, and it is a diversion that I believe will delay the recovery of Lisa. But to sit quietly and let the bully beat you up? No I won't suggest that.


I agree on not quietly letting a bully beat a person up. I see many of the items in your post that have happened and I have not debated them or do not deny they have been posted. I have also been following this story and thread since it happened (I have just not been as vocal about it, posting and otherwise).

I don't have any issue with the lawyers for the family speaking up and talking and getting the families side of this issue out to the media. Maybe they realized it was time to start defending them as the public and media trial was getting intense. I don't know. I am just asking questions about the timing of things that have happened.

I agree, it is could all be a diversion and will delay the recovery of baby Lisa. It seems to me, it is turning into more of a blame game than anything else. Who did what, where, why. The only ones that seem to not be taking much of heat are the media, they are eating it up.

IWOH
edit on 12-11-2011 by IwasOnceHappy because: Clarification

edit on 12-11-2011 by IwasOnceHappy because: Dang Parenthasis.



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by Dav1d

I don't think they will win this contest, and it is a diversion that I believe will delay the recovery of Lisa.


Now this on the other hand, is what I do have issues with and can see quite well. Not you or your posts or others, but the content of what I took out above. I agree with you totally on this statement. It is a shame that this has turned into a contest (in such words). Instead of pursuing a resolve at finding the baby, it turns into a frenzy of who can get what information to the media first to stay on top. *this is only my opinion*.

IWOH



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 02:09 PM
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If we look at the family and the police, who has the power?
The Police.
So this war(at this point is very one sided).
Who wins in this war?
If we assume for a minute the family is innocent (something they are suppose to be entitled to)
This war doesn't get baby Lisa found.
If you look at it from KCPD side, and you take what they have stated as truth, (they don't have a clue)
It takes attention off of Lisa, and why she hasn't been found. (KCPD gains from that, they are not on the hot seat)
It places "blame" on the family ( taking the spotlight off KCPD for a while, giving them time ~ buying them time to develope a lead)
It makes the failure to recover Lisa more acceptable, by the concept of shared blame.
If they can't find the body, they can always try for a conviction based on circumstantial evidence.
If the KCPD can spread the word wide enough, then it will become an unaknowlaged fact in everyone mind. That makes any future trial of the family easier to win. You've already got your potential jurors primed with the knowledge that the family might be guilty.
There is limit time/space, the more of that time/space we focuse on the family, the less there is to ask why isn't Lisa found yet. What should KCPD do different.
The overall effect of this is to isolate the family
Emotional abuse generally starts with attempts to isolate a person, to cut them off from friends and families.
KCPD is suppose to protect society from abuse, it is disturbing to see them operating in ways that can be seen as coercion.



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by Dav1d
If we look at the family and the police, who has the power?
The Police.
So this war(at this point is very one sided).
Who wins in this war?
If we assume for a minute the family is innocent (something they are suppose to be entitled to)
This war doesn't get baby Lisa found.
If you look at it from KCPD side, and you take what they have stated as truth, (they don't have a clue)
It takes attention off of Lisa, and why she hasn't been found. (KCPD gains from that, they are not on the hot seat)
It places "blame" on the family ( taking the spotlight off KCPD for a while, giving them time ~ buying them time to develope a lead)
It makes the failure to recover Lisa more acceptable, by the concept of shared blame.
If they can't find the body, they can always try for a conviction based on circumstantial evidence.
If the KCPD can spread the word wide enough, then it will become an unaknowlaged fact in everyone mind. That makes any future trial of the family easier to win. You've already got your potential jurors primed with the knowledge that the family might be guilty.
There is limit time/space, the more of that time/space we focuse on the family, the less there is to ask why isn't Lisa found yet. What should KCPD do different.
The overall effect of this is to isolate the family


I would agree to some points. As far as power, the family took the power back by having a lawyer retained. I believe the police have much less power than is thought. The media is doing more of the talking and spreading more than the police are. I agree that this is not getting baby Lisa found. Both sides should be out looking rather than trying to answer to the media.

Do we know, for a fact, how the case is being handled and who is giving direction in it? The FBI is involved in it, which makes them more than support. Notice how the FBI is not commenting hardly at all? What if, after all we read, the family is not cooperating with the police, but is cooperating with the FBI? Wouldn't the police feel the need or duty to make sure the citizens feel they can still serve and protect?

Don't get me wrong. The police should be held accountable for their actions, but not all police are crooked. There are many more questions than answers to this case.


Originally posted by Dav1d
Emotional abuse generally starts with attempts to isolate a person, to cut them off from friends and families.


I believe I can be confident in stating that I am well aware of this, having lived through it and overcome it. The family has representation now, so I would believe it does ease some of the isolation a little (just a little). Maybe this is the answer to the question I have been asking about why the sudden change in talking to the media after the two kids were interviewed? I still question the timing, but maybe the lawyers know they need to compete in a media battle.

IWOH



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by Dav1d

There is limit time/space, the more of that time/space we focuse on the family, the less there is to ask why isn't Lisa found yet. What should KCPD do different.


I felt this deserved another look at. I agree, the more we focus on the family, the less time there is for baby Lisa. I couldn't say exactly what the police should do different as I do not know what information they can and cannot release due to the law.

In my personal opinion? I will state that personally, if the law permitted, the police should release the video and all transcripts of the initial interviews (including the the reactions from the police and family). If this turns into a big media circus (more than it is now), put it all on the table and say, here it is. Maybe the childrens interview can have the transcripts released, not the actual video with the kids.

If we want to hold the police accountable completely, I would have them show everything they have. Put it out there and then put out a public note (conference) stating that the search should continue. Let the family organize the search how they see it should be run, and have the police help within their jurisdiction. Hold everyone accountable.

This is all based on the question of what in my opinion should the police do different if it was possible and within the law.

IWOH
edit on 12-11-2011 by IwasOnceHappy because: Clarification



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by IwasOnceHappy


I would agree to some points.

Cool

As far as power, the family took the power back by having a lawyer retained.

There is STILL a sigificant power embalance

I believe the police have much less power than is thought.

The media is well aware, this will run its course. The media knows that Capt. Steve Young will be there tomorrow and, next month, next year. The (local) media in this case will need to pump him for info in the future, there are real limits to what they can say, print and do if they wish to continue to be employed in the future. What some would call the good old boys network. That means the police are far more likely to dance on the line...

The media is doing more of the talking and spreading more than the police are.

My guess is the media are getting most of their data by that good old boys network... Certainly they will attempt to verify anything sigificant.

I agree that this is not getting baby Lisa found. Both sides should be out looking rather than trying to answer to the media.

Do we know, for a fact, how the case is being handled and who is giving direction in it?

Where does the buck stop? I am under the impression that the chief of police is responsible for his men? Certainly he can read the media, watch the media. And he has fed the media, off the record...

The FBI is involved in it, which makes them more than support.

I've posted my links about card, it clearly states they are support. You've stated this before, do you have a link that supports this?

Notice how the FBI is not commenting hardly at all? What if, after all we read, the family is not cooperating with the police, but is cooperating with the FBI?
You've suggested this before, my response is that KCPD is speaking for LE in this case. It is NOT acceptable to hide behind we are not aware of what they are doing with the FBI. That is not how most hear the KCPD message.

Wouldn't the police feel the need or duty to make sure the citizens feel they can still serve and protect?
So what that justifies the KCPD behavior now? They just got a new Police Chief, this will set the tone, it is unlikely to get better.


Don't get me wrong. The police should be held accountable for their actions, but not all police are crooked. There are many more questions than answers to this case.

I've never stated all police are crooked, there are many good people in LE.



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by IwasOnceHappy



This is all based on the question of what in my opinion should the police do different if it was possible and within the law.



I would suggest that at the most basic level, ALL communication between LE and the public, be truthful, should legally be required to be truthful. When you can no longer be truthful we need to find a new job...

If you don't have trust with the public, you can not be effective, in a positive way.



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 04:50 PM
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reply to post by schmae
 


well done. It is a med for anxiety/depression and just reading up on it now...
certainly not good to mix with alcohol and it can also affect memory:


Memory loss

In a study of 70 patients that compared the tolerability of venlafaxine at standard doses, ranging from 75 to 300 mg, against relatively high doses (rarely prescribed), ranging from 375 to 600 mg per day, for treating DSM-IV major depressive disorder, "failing memory" was reported in 44% of cases. The severity of venlafaxine-induced memory loss was also noted to increase with dose and length of treatment.

en.wikipedia.org...

this could explain the memory loss and she has stated that she was drinking alcohol.



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by Dav1d

My guess is the media are getting most of their data by that good old boys network... Certainly they will attempt to verify anything sigificant.


From some of the news articles I have seen posted (quoted offsite data and then provided the link) in this thread, It would seem the media is also getting much of their data from the lawyers and investigators working for the family. Also, as with the tweets, looks like the media is also getting their data from facebook friends. If we were to only say they were getting their information from a good ol boy network, there would be no discussion about the family being mistreated. I could be wrong on this, but have seen much more talking from the family, lawyers, others involved, PI's (or investigators helping the PI's) and such than the police.



I've posted my links about card, it clearly states they are support. You've stated this before, do you have a link that supports this?


You are correct, I will have to go looking for this information about cases in the past and if the FBI was assisting but were actually telling the local LE what to do. From my personal experience working with the government and federal officers, once they start investigating a case, they have much more input than support.

My first link is this thread (I will need to look it up, but it was just a few pages ago and we have been discussing it). Michelle linked an article, from the families lawyer, that stated that the FBI asked for the interviews to be delayed. Yet, as you pointed out, the police said the interviews were not going to happen. Then all of a sudden the interviews were happening and the FBI flew out their person. In my opinion, this sure looks like the FBI not talking to the police about what they are doing and leaving the police to field the media. Of course, there was a no comment from the police after that, would we expect anything else *if* they were taken by surprise like we were?


You've suggested this before, my response is that KCPD is speaking for LE in this case. It is NOT acceptable to hide behind we are not aware of what they are doing with the FBI. That is not how most hear the KCPD message.


I can see many people hearing the message like that. Who would be hiding? As I referenced above, if the FBI pulled together the interview, without informing the police, I would think the no comment from the police afterwards would be a good idea until they talked with the FBI about it.

I agree, the Police are supposed to be speaking for this incident. They cannot control everything another agency does. I don't think I would personally use the word hiding, maybe not commenting because they were made to look worse by not knowing what the FBI and lawyers were talking about. I don't know though, like I said, I am only observing this from the outside and am not privy to the actual facts that are not being released.


So what that justifies the KCPD behavior now? They just got a new Police Chief, this will set the tone, it is unlikely to get better.


I hope it gets better. Maybe it will get better if the public opinion goes to a new low and they want change. For the officer that was chosen and offered the job, after this case was already happening, I can only image he would not be looking forward to it.

IWOH



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by Dav1d

Originally posted by IwasOnceHappy



This is all based on the question of what in my opinion should the police do different if it was possible and within the law.



I would suggest that at the most basic level, ALL communication between LE and the public, be truthful, should legally be required to be truthful. When you can no longer be truthful we need to find a new job...

If you don't have trust with the public, you can not be effective, in a positive way.


I agree with you entirely.

IWOH



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by Thurisaz
reply to post by schmae
 


well done. It is a med for anxiety/depression and just reading up on it now...
certainly not good to mix with alcohol and it can also affect memory:


Memory loss

In a study of 70 patients that compared the tolerability of venlafaxine at standard doses, ranging from 75 to 300 mg, against relatively high doses (rarely prescribed), ranging from 375 to 600 mg per day, for treating DSM-IV major depressive disorder, "failing memory" was reported in 44% of cases. The severity of venlafaxine-induced memory loss was also noted to increase with dose and length of treatment.

en.wikipedia.org...

this could explain the memory loss and she has stated that she was drinking alcohol.



Wow. Good find to both of you. It would certainly explain only drinking multiple glasses of wine and mixing it with the medication.

IWOH



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Dav1d

I've posted my links about card, it clearly states they are support. You've stated this before, do you have a link that supports this?


I wanted to get this back to you quickly as I did not want to sound like I was just trying to be argumentative. I will add to this if I find more, from the FBI's info page on the card team it states:

FBI CARD Team


Where are the teams located and where have they been deployed? We’ve created ten regional teams nationwide: two each in the northeast, southeast, north central, south central, and west. With the whole nation covered, we can send a team anywhere in the U.S. within hours. In addition to their unique expertise, CARD teams can quickly establish an on-site command post to centralize investigative efforts and operations. Other assets they bring to the table include a new mapping tool to identify and locate registered sex offenders in the area, national and international lead coverage, and the Child Abduction Response Plan to guide investigative efforts.


and within it also:


Our special agents join local law enforcement in coordinating and conducting comprehensive investigations. Our Evidence Response Team personnel may conduct the forensic investigation of the abduction site, while a Rapid Start Team may immediately be deployed to coordinate and track investigative leads, which often number in the thousands.


It could be a discussion on how the words are said in the explanations, but by putting up a command post and also coordinating and tracking investigations, it would look like a little more than support. You could be correct and they could be support only. I am just trying to add more options to what can be going on.

IWOH
edit on 12-11-2011 by IwasOnceHappy because: Clarification



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 06:47 PM
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Curious, you are surprised by the media, they inform you that your partner is having lunch later next week with a very famous media personality. Would your first response really be No he/she isn't? Or would your first response be to check with your partner? Or say a friend is throwing a party, and makes it clear it is a couple event, would you accept for you and your partner, without being aware of your partners plans?

I really see this is a very basic kind of deal. KCPD were told the boys were meeting with police later in the week, that fact, did not require an immediate response, such that they couldn't verify that the FBI was not talking to them. Do you really wish to suggest that KCPD doesn't know how to contact the lawyers in this case? Hasn't been in contact with the lawyers? My world is not based on showing how much smarter I am than everyone around me. If I was given this info, at the very least I would of contacted the lawyers and asked, who are they scheduling this with, it's not about making the other side look dumb.

But in my opinion, KCPD is out to make this family look criminal, and bad, look at the last media event the family had scheduled near the end of October. That was the day and the hour, that the KCPD does a search of a pond? Do you really think, that morning the family wasn't told of that search? If they go on with their event, it would have been played as them being uncaring, about the search. If they cancel the event, it is played that once again they changed their plans at the last moment. The family is unreliable....

You go to the major sites, that cover Baby Lisa, and at each one I've been to there is someone very Pro police, who claims to be connected in someway. Perhaps a parole officer, perhaps a psychologist but they are there being vocal, that the family is guilty.... One doesn't need to many people hitting media sites, to make an impression. Most LE encourages its officers not to post as an officer, even my little backwater town. You know the best shills aren't even aware of being one, they simply get fed info, knowing it will be passed on. How many rumors have their origin at KCPD? It's all about manipulation, and steering public opinion is old hat for people involved in propaganda. There are just way to many coincidences in this case.



posted on Nov, 12 2011 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by Dav1d

Originally posted by Michelle129th
Good find OneIsOne, thanks for the link. Here's a quick idea of what the 1.3m would look like with the Irwin house at center

1.3 mile radius from Irwin House

Michelle


Shouldn't that be 0.33 and NOT 1.3 miles?


My goodness you're right, sorry about that. When I read it the first time I was sure it was 1.3...need more sleep. Here's an updated map...just to give an idea of the area it covers. A bit less daunting than the first.

1/3mile radius from Lisa Irwin's house

To Schmae: I also wasn't sure what exactly electronic Surveillance meant. I googled it and funny enough I found an old Wanted Ad for the exact same position with sprint at the same location. here is the job description.


Electronic Surveillance Technician,
Sprint | OVERLAND PARK, Kansas
Work Type Full time
Job Description In this critical role of an Electronic Surveillance Technician, you will be responsible for ensuring compliance in this area, which includes 7x24 Law Enforcement Agency (LEA) hotlines used by LEAs for emergencies involving hostage situations, kidnappings and national emergencies. You will coordinate the receipt, processing and response to legal demands received from LEAs and courts for customer records, pen registers and wiretaps.

Your responsibilities will include analyzing law enforcement-generated court orders to determine completeness, assess validity and determine the nature and scope of the request. You will also assist in the implementation and maintenance of court ordered electronic surveillance (i.e. wiretap, pen-register, and trap and trace), handset location tracking a customer requested malicious call trace. You will provide appropriate data for billing law enforcement the cost of providing electronic surveillance. You may be required to provide after-hours call screening by handling non-emergency call requests as well as coordinate switch translation initiation for establishing electronic surveillance. You will report to a Supervisor. ? High school diploma or equivalent

? Experience in security, law or surveillance Sprint is a great place to work for people who want to make a difference. We're at the center of a challenging and changing industry where every day is a growth opportunity. Diverse thought and backgrounds are highly valued. If you're up for a challenge, Sprint is the place to build your career and your character. Sprint is an Equal Opportunity Employer and has been recognized for its commitment to diversity and creating an inclusive workplace where all employees' backgrounds, talents and contributions are valued.

We are proud to be a drug free employer.


Also: you inquired about the new info from Ron Rugen about Dane "huddled" in a corner with Megan wright's cell phone. This has been quite the mystery in and of itself. It was first posted to his blog with the name "kelly" as the roomate. Several people got the screen capture. He then pulled it quickly and replaced "kelly" with "pat". Many more people got that screen capture. He then pulled the entire thing and said this: (couldn't find exact quote so im paraphrasing)

"I decided I need to check out the information and make sure it's not a vengeance interview"

He then a few hours later put the article back up but took out the "huddled in the corner" bit....so I guess that part was a complete lie from the housemate, or couldn't be verified, or he felt it was not quite true I don't know. Here's the link to his reposted article. If you want the original i believe I have a screenshot of it somewhere but i wont post it here, I will send it to you through u2u if you want it.

Ron Rugen

Michelle



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