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Why that war was necessary.

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posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 07:52 AM
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Dom, fair enough. maybe we have been lied to. But, being that we have have free press and 3 out of 4 of the nations largest news providers sympathize to the liberal side and would love nothing more than to prove this war isn't neccesary haven't suggested such things. See, the major networks over here really pulled against Bush in the election and when the constitution had to make the decision, they started wanting to change it. Thats fine with me but I think you have to change it before an election not make the rules after the game. But reguardless, Iraqi news is state controlled and what they have been broadcasting has been shown to be false. I would even venture to say that the big three networks here would like nothing more than to see their own country lose this war miserably and the economy fall apart. You see they are more for government control of everything ..or socialism. But they have to not sway too far from facts that they lose all credibilty, but they do put an anti Bush spin on everything if that helps ya. I swing more toward individual gain for individual effort. I think thats what leads to breakthroughs in medicine, science, and technology. Proof is in the the amount of new products and inovations we produce under such an environment. If we all made the same living no matter what our effort, there would really be no incentive to push the envelope would there? But I don't wanna get off on a tangent here. Thats just the view most of our news has so if its reported on the big three and its pro U.S., you can bet that with a republican pres., its just because it can't be skewed otherwise, they'de be telling us those terror camps were homeless shelters to make Bush look like "the monster he is". Plus, I am an amateur radio operator and avid ahortwave listener so I'm not limited by geography. I here most of it , if not all. I'm open minded and was a liberal until i decided that things could not be so one-sided so I did my own research instead of reciting what I was told to. See, I don't like being lied to either but, its unavoidable in the world we live in. The key is to sort through the haze. No hard feelings and I appreciate the stimulating conversation. be well.




posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 05:11 PM
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Dom

Jordan and Egypt were two of the countries that attacked Isreal, hence the need for the buffer zone. I don't mean to imply it is still needed, but just stating why the area was occupied to begin with since there are many who are not aware of it. I am also completely for seperate states, I don't think there is anything more that could be done to get closer to peace. On the other hand I still don't think it wil resolve the problem. I still think extremists will continue to try to interfere even after the fact. For a lot of them (extremists) the seperate state is an excuse for hate. If they get it, they will just look for another excuse to want to destroy isreal. I think those are the minority, but you know how the minority can ruin it for the majority. I am sure there will be just as many on the Isreaili side who will do the same.

Sadly I think the only thing that will bring true peace will be devistation. I hope I am wrong. If my statement seems biased tward one side over another, it is not intended.



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 06:45 PM
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ultra-phoenix ...

Your account on Germans killed during WW2 is wrong ... The military casualty was around 2 million during the war.

But there were 3 million German casualty after the war, and 12 million fugitives, along with many rapings, etc.... These ethnic cleansings of Germans were perpetrated by Czechs and Russians. Many POW's (around 500 000, but im not sure on that figure) died in american custody from thirst and hunger.

Germans are, nowadays, fervently opposed to fascism and bellicism .. that's why they're against the war.



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 07:08 PM
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But there were 3 million German casualty after the war, and 12 million fugitives, along with many rapings, etc.... These ethnic cleansings of Germans were perpetrated by Czechs and Russians. Posted by Moku

No kidding? Well, does it come as a surprise after they only killed 20 million Russians?

Germans are, nowadays, fervently opposed to fascism and bellicism Posted by Moku

Does that explain the current rise and popularity of neonazi groups in Germany, fervently militant against immigration into Germany?

that's why they're against the war. Posted by Moku
Actually, Germany is against the war for 2 reasons. One, Iraq is a good trading partner, and in times of hard economics, they dont want to see a good customer go away (at least not until they can pay off the estimated $65 billion debt that Iraq owes Germany).

Two, Germany, along with France, very much wants Iraq to stay in power long enough to force a vote in OPEC to swap the oil standard currency from the US dollar to the Euro. Sure, it will precipitate the worst economic disaster in the history of the planet, but Germany is the one standing to profit!



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 07:35 PM
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"Well, does it come as a surprise after they only killed 20 million Russians? "

These 20 million also encompass Stalin's killings, of which the exact numbers arent clear. Im talking about a genocide of 3 million German civilians after the war, due to antigermanic ideology, not soldiers dying through combat action...


"Does that explain the current rise and popularity of neonazi groups in Germany, fervently militant against immigration into Germany?"

There is no rise in right-wing ideologies in Germany today, there is a "nationalist" party under heavy surveillance of the security services, that probably has some nazi followers .. but they account for less than 2% of the votes and many of them are protest voters.

By the way .. the current GOP would probably be outlawed in Germany due to easy classification as right-wing. And this party is ruling in the US




[Edited on 9-4-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 07:46 PM
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These 20 million also encompass Stalin's killings, of which the exact numbers arent clear. Im talking about a genocide of 3 million German civilians after the war, due to antigermanic ideology, not soldiers dying through combat action... Posted by Moku

Incorrect.

Granted that Stalin did in fact kill millions of his own people, the number referring to the numbers killed by Germans is or very near to 20 million. These were not all soldiers killed in combat either. Germany persued a very comprehensive and vigorous campaign of genocide against the Russians (They were after all the "sub human species" to the germans).

An interesting side note: Germans would *generally* (not always) respect the Geneva Convention regarding American and UK POWs, assuming said POWs appeared to be largely of Arayan stock. However, Russian/Slavic/Eastern European POWs were generally herded in with the Jews for mass extermination.

Hitler was very interested in totally wiping out the Russian people and taking over Russias vast natural resources as a source to fuel his ever increasing war machine. All the various methods and techniques used by the Nazis later in the war in the "final solution for the Jewish problem" were experimented and perfected in Russia.



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 07:56 PM
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excuse me, what are your sources ? american history books ?



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 08:04 PM
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Moku, you are so full of crap it makes me want to bounce my head off of a telephone poll.



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 09:18 PM
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Muko or whatever your name is, you are DEAD wrong.

Germany's extremist groups are on the rise, their "leftists" and "rightists" are battling it out in the streets more and more each year (been steadily rising ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall).



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 09:19 PM
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Yup and oh, look....



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 09:24 PM
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I don't see any Extremists in the streets in the USA.

The two main parties are SO similar, their only difference is the Democrats want less Federalism, and the Republicans want more, and that is the ONLY difference.

The Communists spend more time fighting the KKK (an unpolitical group now), and the Nazis here spend more time fighting black peoples, there really isn't much leftist vs. rightist fights going on here.

You got peace knicks who don't know anything, but also do nothing but get arrested.

Nothing like Germany, where the police are constantly having to pull the two sides apart.

There were in the year 2002 80 Nazi or That far Right, marches alone, and most were tallied by the German antifas peoples whom constantly got into fights.



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 09:30 PM
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Ok, so the gestopo are not here. But I still see them getting closer. Somebody tell me I'm seeing things...




Oh, never mind its just Bush and the DHLS, everything ok.

"cough" bullchit



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
Dom, fair enough. maybe we have been lied to. But, being that we have have free press and 3 out of 4 of the nations largest news providers sympathize to the liberal side and would love nothing more than to prove this war isn't neccesary haven't suggested such things.




You really think that the press is liberal? Is that why Clearnet is lobbying the government to be able to monopolize most of the news in America. This company has told networks that show anti-war protests will loose sponsors.
Ask yourself, why is it that the only commentators and guests the networks have on the air are either military, ex-military, or right wing politicians, most of whom have financial interests in the rebuilding of Iraq? Why don't you see representatives of peace groups, church groups, or other liberal speakers like Ralph Nader or Noam Chomsky?
It is because the idea of the press as being "liberal" is a fostered myth by the huge right wing media corporations who own them. It is a brilliant scam I'll give them that. They are able to spout whatever facist dogma they want and still have the room to go even further right.
It is sad that the press is not free in America.
In this time it is more important than ever to hear all sides so people can make their own minds up.
In Canada on the CBC, at least they have open debates about the war. Even on the BBC, an ally in the war, they allow debate from all sides to take place, as opposed to this constant cheerleading on all the stations in the US.



posted on Apr, 8 2003 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
Dom, fair enough. maybe we have been lied to. But, being that we have have free press and 3 out of 4 of the nations largest news providers sympathize to the liberal side and would love nothing more than to prove this war isn't neccesary haven't suggested such things.




You really think that the press is liberal? Is that why Clearnet is lobbying the government to be able to monopolize most of the news in America. This company has told networks that show anti-war protests will loose sponsors.
Ask yourself, why is it that the only commentators and guests the networks have on the air are either military, ex-military, or right wing politicians, most of whom have financial interests in the rebuilding of Iraq? Why don't you see representatives of peace groups, church groups, or other liberal speakers like Ralph Nader or Noam Chomsky?
It is because the idea of the press as being "liberal" is a fostered myth by the huge right wing media corporations who own them. It is a brilliant scam I'll give them that. They are able to spout whatever facist dogma they want and still have the room to go even further right.
It is sad that the press is not free in America.
In this time it is more important than ever to hear all sides so people can make their own minds up.
In Canada on the CBC, at least they have open debates about the war. Even on the BBC, an ally in the war, they allow debate from all sides to take place, as opposed to this constant cheerleading on all the stations in the US.



posted on Apr, 9 2003 @ 03:36 AM
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Ultra Phoenix,

You don't understand me and I think you never will.
What do you think democracy is ?

You don't know anything about the world or about life. To understand the porblems of today, you'll have to open minded and not narrow minded, limited to certain standards. Look at the situation on a scientific way. And also you must know a lot about history, more than WW2 only.

At all time remember this ! Those who are in control (the governments) of course want to stay in power.. the way to do that is to educate the citizen what they believe is right. You have to understand the art of control.

Like I've said before, "liberating" the Iraqi people is BS. Once Saddam is gone America will rule. Even if te Iraqi's want them to leave they won't leave, they will sell the oil and make sure their companies will get the money to rebuild Iraq. After all American companies will get better from it. not the Iraqi people. Oh yeah democracy is cool isn't it ? For the leaders of course.. the population ? that remains to be seen.

And for your information, I've been around the world, have seen many places, talked to many peoples, you know what's funny ? In eastern Europe countries for example where they had communism for a long time peoples are desperate, many say they were better off in the communistic time, they had everything. Now they have nothing, they need money to do something, and all the money goes to the rich peoples. Poverty is rising fast in those countries. There are no jobs, high bills every months etc. Yes go and talk to them and learn a bit of democracy.

Those things is what I worry about, maybe you sit in your home and "safe" country giving comments on everybody and everything, you never go and talk to them to know how they feel...

I call it being selfish. Say things without know the real situation.



posted on Apr, 9 2003 @ 04:55 AM
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Tiger

that may be your opinion, but you cannot say that is what will happen. I don't personally agree with what you say, but I won't rule it out as a possibility (a bad one). Just so long as we all acknowledge it's just personal speculation and not remotely factual. It's easy to make such accusations, but is there anything to really back that up? Is there some evidnce that proves the US will take control over Iraq and not let them run it as promised? Sure there will be some US companies to profit, but someone has to do the work and no one regardless of where they are from is going to do it for free. You almost seem to (but not nesc) imply that the US wants to just come in and rape them. But the oil is going back to rebuilding their country. I think the fact that Haliburton is out of the picture is a pretty good sign as well.

I guess basically you are accusing many of being liars and I wonder if there is something to back up those accusations. I'm not trying to attack you, just asking for a little more to back up what you are saying.



posted on Apr, 9 2003 @ 05:04 AM
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just one thing to say more,

I strongly recommend to read this article...

www.guardian.co.uk...



The world is smoking gun that is loaded, soon is gonna blow you away...

[Edited on 9-4-2003 by CoLD aNGeR]



posted on Apr, 9 2003 @ 05:22 AM
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Originally posted by 5POF
Muko or whatever your name is, you are DEAD wrong.

Germany's extremist groups are on the rise, their "leftists" and "rightists" are battling it out in the streets more and more each year (been steadily rising ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall).


You are right in that there is a strong antiimperialist/antiglobalization movement in Germany. But why should the Germans be singled out, when this movement is growing everywhere and has nothing to do with nazism ?

Countries that currently really deserve to be singled out because of apartheid or blunt racism are the United States and Israel for anti-islamic and anti-palestinian policies.



posted on Apr, 9 2003 @ 07:51 AM
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I stopped reading replies to the main topic of this thread after I reached the fifth post. Perhaps it was boredom, or rather, it may have very well been disgust. Either way, I would like to boil this argument down to the bottom of the pot, so to speak:

Many Pro-War conservatives like to throw the "Saddam is evil, why can't you Anti-War people see that" mantra at our faces...but the truth is, it only shows their lack of intelligence.

This is a P.O.V. argument. To call Saddam evil while ignoring the bigger threat present in Saudi Arabia and Egypt (Where do you think all the 9/11 hijackers were from?) is pure lunacy.

Not to mention that P.O.V. (That is point-of-view, for you less-educated men) arguments are something no real debater would use as a foundation.

As for the argument that Saddam is an Evil that must be expunged, who was the wise man who once said, "One man's mud puddle is another man's bathtub"?

Saddam is Evil, there is no doubt about that. However, he is an Iraqi, and the Iraqi people respect him and trust him...more so then any westerner or exiled Iraqi politician that we might place on Saddam's vacant throne. They may fear him and his wrath, but they also know he is of their same bloodand born from their homeland. To these once nomadic peoplethis means quite a bit.

I recall seeing an Iraqi on MSNBC who, when interviewed said, and I quote,

"We don't care if you remove Saddam, but your people cannot stay here or they will all die."

And that, dear friends, is the truth.

Evil or not, it is better to be led by one of your own kin then by a foreigner who knows nothing of your people's ways.

(Swearing he would never come back to this place)

Goodbye children, enjoy the America you have created! This man will not dirty his hands on this website again.



posted on Apr, 9 2003 @ 08:13 AM
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"Goodbye children, enjoy the America you have created! This man will not dirty his hands on this website again. "

I guess he wants all opinions but his banned from being aired.

I have no further argument to show that American media is motsly left wing. Just watch them. They have had the US defeated more times than Iraqi TV has.

Moku, I really can't argue with you either. Your views are so skewed that I feel i could list no arguments or facts you would even consider. Its apparent that you have been taught to believe what you are saying reguardless of any other facts that may be presented. BTW, I just walked by the local Islamic Center on the way to work. I don't think there is that much intolerence for Islam in the US, I just think that there is also tolerence for Judaism as well. Thats where the trouble is, its not whether your religion is tolerated or not, it that others are also isn't it? As for Israelis view of Palastinians, not my fight but what i here is very different than what you say. I saw Arafat get offered everything he demanded when the Clinton Admin worked a deal and he refused it. How can you remain a viable interest when you won't except everything you've demanded when its offered? I think we all know really what its about. Genocide of that race and religion. If the Isaeli state was at the North Freaking pole, there they would be outside trying to destroy it. It was always meant to be that way and and will end that way.




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