The Evil Servant Parable of Jesus, Who did He Have In Mind?

reply to post by jmdewey60


i was going to break down the whole chapter here, but while reading through the thread i found out what you're looking for..

I wanted to see if anyone could think of how this supposed parable could have already seen its fulfillment.

Keep in mind this entire chapter is about the quesiton his diciples asked him...

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

If you consider Jesus knew who he was, and where he came from... He was giving them the answer to this question... He discribes the end of the world.

Now even though there are famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places... And there has always been wars where nation rises against nation as he said... I do not beleive this or anytime soon will be the "end" of the world...

The last 7 verses you quoted in that chapter were Jesus explaining that "you should not betray who you say you follow" because a servant knows his master, and trusts him... And in failing to trust him you betray him... as he says...

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

and what happens when the master does return unexpectedly to the servant that betrays him...

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So, in fact the verse you've quoted happens alot, and has happened many times all thoughout history.

The question i have is are you looking to the bible for prohecy here?

Only because i don't believe it is even close to the "end of the world"... people are waking up to the reality of love, not dismissing it these days.

reply to post by Akragon

Now even though there are famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places... And there has always been wars where nation rises against nation as he said... I do not beleive this or anytime soon will be the "end" of the world...

Well, sure, Christ brought those things up, but careful study shows that those things are NOT signs of the end. The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel was the "sign" the people are to look for, then run out of Jerusalem.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Now even though there are famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places... And there has always been wars where nation rises against nation as he said... I do not beleive this or anytime soon will be the "end" of the world...

Well, sure, Christ brought those things up, but careful study shows that those things are NOT signs of the end. The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel was the "sign" the people are to look for, then run out of Jerusalem.

I know, as he said...

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

But the passage he quoted was him saying trust your master...don't listen to what everyone else is doing or saying. Don't assume your master is not comming when he said that he was... etc etc...

But the entire chapter is Jesus going on about the end of the world, which is not comming anytime soon...

reply to post by Akragon

The question i have is are you looking to the bible for prohecy here?

Only because i don't believe it is even close to the "end of the world"... people are waking up to the reality of love, not dismissing it these days.

I'm saying it was prophecy when Jesus said it. My question is like what you quoted from me, how would you say this was fulfilled (taking it as being already fulfilled and not something yet future).
The literal translation of what you are calling "the end of the world" is, completion of the age. The completion of their current age was the end of being under the old covenant, and the ushering in of the new covenant. That was the immediate end of an age they were facing when this discussion took place.

reply to post by pthena

This is an OT example of one steward being rejected for another. Notice how even the new steward is unable to keep from also being broken and crashing to the ground.

I think Jesus was especially warning his brother James, to whom the burden was passed. James was tossed down just a very few years before the destruction of Jerusalem

So, not a one-time event but an on-going principle based on human nature, that when one fails and is then replaced, the next is sure to also fail, eventually.
I did a look at the prophecies about the land of the Canaanites once and concluded that it was the land, itself, which corrupted everyone who lived on it, so that if the Canaanites became evil on the land, and were replaced by the "better" Israelites, they eventually became just as bad as the first, after spending time on that apparently cursed land.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

But the passage he quoted was him saying trust your master...don't listen to what everyone else is doing or saying. Don't assume your master is not comming when he said that he was... etc etc...
But the entire chapter is Jesus going on about the end of the world, which is not comming anytime soon...

What you might want to think about is there not being an end of the world, just the end of the world as we know it.
To quote your earlier post,

. . . people are waking up to the reality of love, not dismissing it these days. . .

Let's say that people 25 or 30 years ago began waking up to the reality of love, when would that awakening be able to take effect as to change the world? Lets say, 45 or 50 years, so you would end up having a generation of the final end time, to where at the end, the world is not dead, but fully alive.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

The question i have is are you looking to the bible for prohecy here?

Only because i don't believe it is even close to the "end of the world"... people are waking up to the reality of love, not dismissing it these days.

I'm saying it was prophecy when Jesus said it. My question is like what you quoted from me, how would you say this was fulfilled (taking it as being already fulfilled and not something yet future).
The literal translation of what you are calling "the end of the world" is, completion of the age. The completion of their current age was the end of being under the old covenant, and the ushering in of the new covenant. That was the immediate end of an age they were facing when this discussion took place.

So let me get this straight then...

What you're looking for is historical evidence for this "prophecy"?

Now if as you're saying it meant the "end of an age" ... and the NT replaces the old conenant, that would mean this event came to pass already...

but here... he say's all these things are yet to come, and are just the beginning

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Now looking at this chapter, you can see at the beginning he says...

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Prompting his diciples to ask him about his return, and the end of the world.

So this chapter being about the "end of the world" or the "end of an age" depends on if you believe Jesus has returned at some point already...

They asked him for a "sign of Thy comming" and the end of the world.

If this event that he spoke of in this chapter has already happened, Jesus also would have returned in some way/shape/form already at some point in the past.

reply to post by Akragon

What you're looking for is historical evidence for this "prophecy"?

No.
I am saying that I think that this was Jesus describing the interchange on a spiritual level, that happened at his crucifixion. The god of this world was condemned, but for some reason the god who was on display, so to speak, was the one struck. This is why I mentioned in one post that you need to consider where they went, afterwards. The one struck goes to heaven (after dying and being resurrected), while the one not struck goes to Hades (or, the Abyss), alive.

Now if as you're saying it meant the "end of an age" ... and the NT replaces the old conenant, that would mean this event came to pass already...

Right.

So this chapter being about the "end of the world" or the "end of an age" depends on if you believe Jesus has returned at some point already...

Apparently you missed my translations on the "Jesus is NEVER coming back in the flesh" thread. I can re-post some of it here.

Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."

One, it does not say where he is going, just that he is coming, which is what the Son of Man does, in the Daniel prophecy, he comes to the Ancient of Days on the clouds.
Two, It says, "from now on". This is him saying that nothing can stop what is going to happen, no matter how hard they try, or what they do.

Acts 1:11
and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.”

You can (according to the JM translation) read it so:

Ye men of Galilee, who you have stood looking up to (going into heaven), this very Jesus, who was taken up into heaven, away from you, into heaven, in this way, will go (in that manner that you saw him go) into heaven.

The angels say, You know how there is this prophecy about the Son of Man going up into heaven to meet the Ancient of Days? You remember how Jesus always called himself the Son of Man? Well, there he goes. You just saw him gathered up and supported, and carried away on clouds, just like the Son of Man prophecy in Daniel. That is what is going on, this same mode of transportation you witnessed taking him up in the sky, that will keep on pushing him along until there is no higher heaven to go to, and . . prophecy fulfilled! And you know it because you saw it, and we just explained it.

edit on 4-10-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by jmdewey60

No.
I am saying that I think that this was Jesus describing the interchange on a spiritual level, that happened at his crucifixion.

explain please?

My understanding of this from a christian POV, is that his dying sort of flicked a switch...changing what happens after death for every man. Correct me if im wrong...

The god of this world was condemned, but for some reason the god who was on display, so to speak, was the one struck.

What God was on display? Or are you using the small g God...

This is why I mentioned in one post that you need to consider where they went, afterwards. The one struck goes to heaven (after dying and being resurrected), while the one not struck goes to Hades (or, the Abyss), alive.

so are you saying theres two people or entities within Jesus?

And please define Heaven, and Hades please...

Im just trying to understand here

reply to post by Akragon

. . .so are you saying theres two people or entities within Jesus?

After posting that, and looking at it, it reminds me of the two goats in the day of judgement in type, as spelled out a bit in the OT. Two goats have lots cast and one gets killed and the other gets led out into the land version of an Abyss.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

. . .so are you saying theres two people or entities within Jesus?

After posting that, and looking at it, it reminds me of the two goats in the day of judgement in type, as spelled out a bit in the OT. Two goats have lots cast and one gets killed and the other gets led out into the land version of an Abyss.

haha, you lost me buddy

i've read that story before, but im not understanding where you're going with it... though i can see the association

reply to post by Akragon

My understanding of this from a christian POV, is that his dying sort of flicked a switch...changing what happens after death for every man. Correct me if im wrong...

It is a change in administration, as described in the Book of Hebrews. There was the old system administered by angels (such as the "I am" saying angel) which was replaced by a new system which is administered by Jesus, who is of a superior quality than any angel.
In practical terms for us, we go from following the Law of Moses which only pointed forward to this new thing which was to come about, to following the Holy Spirit which Jesus went to heaven to send back to us.

reply to post by Akragon

What God was on display? Or are you using the small g God...

Jesus said, 'If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me'.
So he was basically making himself a target, on purpose, and there is another verse in the NT saying that Jesus was put on display.
Two goats, two gods.
One of those gods being the "god of this world" and the "prince of this world" or "god of the air".
The other god in the scenario being Jesus, who was formerly a being slightly higher than an angel, but became a man in order to be able to die.
The actual God, as in the creator of the whole universe, sits afar off and acts as a sort of referee.

reply to post by jmdewey60

It is a change in administration, as described in the Book of Hebrews. There was the old system administered by angels (such as the "I am" saying angel) which was replaced by a new system which is administered by Jesus, who is of a superior quality than any angel.

Wasn't the old system the 10 commandments, administered by God himself on mount Sinai?

And how does this change the spirit?

In practical terms for us, we go from following the Law of Moses which only pointed forward to this new thing which was to come about, to following the Holy Spirit which Jesus went to heaven to send back to us.

so what about those who still follow the Law of Moses, or mohammed.. or Satan for that matter? Jesus didn't send whatever holy spirit back to them?

Even before Jesus existed... what happened to people when they died? Was it still only the two options Heaven or Hell?

reply to post by Akragon

i've read that story before, but im not understanding where you're going with it... though i can see the association

There is nowhere to go with it, being just a symbol, but one you can use to visualize what I am talking about. This goes back to my "heretical" background of being a Seventh Day Adventist, where they are accused of being a false theology because they don't (supposedly) believe in a finished restoration or whatever, at the cross, which the followers of Luther may believe in, which is the all-sufficiency of the cross. Obviously there is no such thing because the world is still a big mess and looks to be still run by Satan.
Back to SDA eschatology, the atonement (according to this theory) is a two part thing, where you have a sort of cleansing which starts out through the life and death of Jesus, which is a preparation for sainthood, but to make the world a livable place for the saints, then all the guilt of the world which Jesus bore, is placed on the one who is to blame as being the instigator of all the sin. This is just use of logic, in the face of reality, to explain why the world is the way it is, despite everything Jesus did.
So, back to my current theory, Jesus is the good servant who is killed while acting as the de facto servant who was in charge, while the de jure head servant of the household survives while lying drunk, in the wine cellar. The master being gone so long forgets who he left in charge, sees the horrible state of affairs, sees one playing the role of the head servant, and kills him while not realizing he had killed the wrong person, while the real culprit sobers up, realizes his danger, and sneaks off to hide in a dark place.

reply to post by Akragon

Wasn't the old system the 10 commandments, administered by God himself on mount Sinai?

The OT as we have it today, ends up saying something which sounds like it could mean that.
The NT says it was angels.
I am claiming that the "god of this world" and this sort of representation of God displayed at Sinai, are one in the same.

reply to post by Akragon

And how does this change the spirit?
so what about those who still follow the Law of Moses, or mohammed.. or Satan for that matter? Jesus didn't send whatever holy spirit back to them?
Even before Jesus existed... what happened to people when they died? Was it still only the two options Heaven or Hell?

The Spirit, being holy, has an aversion to unholy things, or persons, such as ourselves being tainted by this sinful world we live in.
Jesus being able to live in this world and come out untainted, sits in heaven as the representative of mankind, so as through his merits, we can receive that holy thing, which on our own, we do not deserve.
I believe that this spirit is available to every person on earth. Having the good news serves as a motivation to want to be good through the spirit, so as to be found worthy for eternal life.

reply to post by jmdewey60

So, back to my current theory, Jesus is the good servant who is killed while acting as the de facto servant who was in charge, while the de jure head servant of the household survives while lying drunk, in the wine cellar. The master being gone so long forgets who he left in charge, sees the horrible state of affairs, sees one playing the role of the head servant, and kills him while not realizing he had killed the wrong person, while the real culprit sobers up, realizes his danger, and sneaks off to hide in a dark place.

So that means when Jesus was alive he was in charge, God took a vacation, came back to find Jesus messed up. So God "kills" him.... so to speak. Then realizes he killed the wrong guy...

So this God is a moron?

The OT as we have it today, ends up saying something which sounds like it could mean that.
The NT says it was angels.

Passages please...

I am claiming that the "god of this world" and this sort of representation of God displayed at Sinai, are one in the same

Some say the "god of this world" is satan... So was he on Sinai?

Jesus being able to live in this world and come out untainted, sits in heaven as the representative of mankind, so as through his merits, we can receive that holy thing, which on our own, we do not deserve.

Something we didn't have prior to his death... correct? So as i've said, it was like the flick of a switch?

I believe that this spirit is available to every person on earth. Having the good news serves as a motivation to want to be good through the spirit, so as to be found worthy for eternal life.

What happened to all the people in the past that may be been deemed "unworthy"... are they in Hell?

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Now even though there are famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places... And there has always been wars where nation rises against nation as he said... I do not beleive this or anytime soon will be the "end" of the world...

Well, sure, Christ brought those things up, but careful study shows that those things are NOT signs of the end. The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel was the "sign" the people are to look for, then run out of Jerusalem.

I know, as he said...

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

But the passage he quoted was him saying trust your master...don't listen to what everyone else is doing or saying. Don't assume your master is not comming when he said that he was... etc etc...

But the entire chapter is Jesus going on about the end of the world, which is not comming anytime soon...

Christ never tells His apostles the end of the world is approaching, they asked Him for the signs for the end of the "age".

reply to post by Akragon

So that means when Jesus was alive he was in charge, God took a vacation, came back to find Jesus messed up. So God "kills" him.... so to speak. Then realizes he killed the wrong guy...

So this God is a moron?

No. The future Satan, or the god left in charge of this world, is a person, maybe someone who could be brought to mind by considering an angel who slaughters the Egyptians to bring out a family, then slaughters half of them right away and the rest, lets die in the desert. Then takes the children of the original people who came out of Egypt, and uses them to kill off several other peoples, in order to occupy their land. Then they end up in turn getting slaughtered by empires this god raises up for that purpose. Not a good steward.
Meanwhile, another god shows up who becomes a person but one who has powers given him by God. He finds this situation where the one who is in charge is not doing his job, so he starts doing the things that other god should have been doing. How he ends up being the one killed is not exactly the way I used an analogy to explain.