What Is The Coherent Message and Who Is Leading "Occupy Wallstreet"?!

reply to post by jam321


aimlessly protesting autonomously in the streets sounds counterproductive to me. Saving ones energy for a well-organized protest sounds alot more efficient and goal-oriented.

In a free market, conditions are such that individuals through initiative and planning create success for themselves and others. In a Socialistic society the power is removed from the individual to a central planning and control government who claim to be able to guide the economy and us all. To keep that power, they must lay on more and more regulations and thereby reestablishing their existence over and over, thereby extinguishing growth in the actual economy. I think this is a type of boot camp.....This lets them gather their people on the streets. The REAL organizers are watching and studying the tactics of the police and how they respond to it. When the REAL organizers are ready they will give the marching orders and these mind numbed college drones will be sent out to riot and whatever else will disturb society and create chaos that Obama needs to pull off the larger plan. Martial Law to delay or cancel elections.

I've heard the sentiments expressed that the 'Leaders' of this movement are cowards for not wanting their identities known.
The reasoning for this is pretty clear and easy to understand.
A caged bird can not fly.
If that was not clear enough let me explain it like this:
If the leaders step out into the public eye and say "Here I am", they put themselves and their families and friends at risk of being hurt. This movement has enough 'Martyrs' already, ie: Rights, liberties, hope's for the future e.t.c

If I were asked to guess at who or what the leadership of this is my answer would probably be that it is some kind of council, comprising of several members that accepts input from anyone with something relevant to add. on top of this they probably take alot of input from opinions expressed through websites like this one.

If this is all being set up by the PTB then they are making a pretty large tactical error as this movement is primarily an idea or collection of ideas and ideas cannot be stopped or killed. They are like quicksand, the more you struggle against them the greater a hold and influence they have on you.
As stated above, it would be foolish for the PTB to organize this as they cannot step forward as the leadership which leaves the 'current' of this movement in the hands of the people who choose to get involved. This is one dog they won't be able to leash without showing their hand. If they show their hand then a big part of the struggle will be won which is in proving, undeniably, to the 'fence sitters' that their IS a problem beyond what they think and that it MUST be acted against if they (fence sitters ie: those not yet too badly affected by this) want a better future for themselves and their children.

Vote with your feet and your voice. vote for change (just not in the Obama way lol)

reply to post by vonholland

aimlessly protesting autonomously in the streets sounds counterproductive to me. Saving ones energy for a well-organized protest sounds alot more efficient and goal-oriented.

Do you feel this protest is well organized?

As with any protests, there are organisations that will try and leverage some power base to suit their own agendas... no doubt elements of capitalism, socialism, marxism, communism will be present...

What I believe, is that people, the world over have had enough. The current system of corporate greed and complete unregulation has got to stop - this current system goes against ALL political/social/religious ideals and people are united in their feelings against it.

Socialism is no more evil than communism, and both are no more evil than Capitalism, everyone has been brainwashed to believing one versus another, normally to suit a countries agenda. The evil comes in the twisting of these to suit agendas of political brainwashing.

Who is to blame for the current mess the world finds itself in... in short, everyone, and everyone has the power to change this without protesting, but they lack the foresight or guidance to be able to do anything. This protest is something they can do, something that can be a part of, and hopefully for them, they will gain better insight and knowledge into how things work. The more I think about it, the more and more the movie the matrix seems relevant to everything, take this quote:

The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

Is this not the pure definition of sheeple? People so blinded to what is happening that they would actually fight to defend the system that corrupts them so badly??? We, collectively have all contributed towards the current state of affairs, we have all joined that crazy me first, greed based, consumer led, debt based lifestyle that has rotted society to its core. We have bought into the system and essentially endorsed the system by doing so, we have followed the flashy lights, the glitzy politicians, the film and sports stars... we have drunk our kool aid, bought our fancy clothes and immersed ourselves in the religion of consumerism...

And now at the bottom of the consumer pit what do we have? Emptiness, rage, hatred, anger... we should be as angry with ourselves as we are at those in a position of power, because we have allowed them to hold such power whilst we remained distracted.

Another Morpheus Quote:

Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

How many of you have felt exactly the same way, in fact I would suggest its probably why so many of you here are on ATS now. We don't know exactly what is wrong, we cannot pin point what is wrong, but we know, collectively, that something is not right with the system. The system itself is the enemy, an enemy we have all created, an enemy with the face of debt, and the enemies supporters are those who work to create greater debt at the expense of those who are powerless to slay the debt.

It's easy to laugh at those protestors, its easy to pick out individual groups or ideals as being of a certain political idealogy, but the fact is, the ideals of any political idealogy are far from unregulated greed, and collectively those people have had enough of the greed that has corrupted the minds of the few at the massive expense of the many.

The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

Those people protesting may not be fully enlightened on the way of the world and the way the system works (doesn't work) but they have started their journeys and we can either point and laugh and help to make them a new enemy... or we can work with them, we can engage in an open mind, and EACH and EVERYONE of us can become leaders. We don't need to lead an army into war, or lead a country out of a crisis... we just need to lead people to the truth. A truth that cuts through everything... that truth is, the world needs to change, we are headed on a path of pure destruction that will go above and beyond consumerism, money and debt.

The thing that concerns me, is that there is a lot of anger in our country at the moment. The protests seem peaceful and non violent, and that is to be commended, but whether or not it will stay that way is another matter. Anyone who lived though 1968 knows how bad it can get, and the economy then was relatively many orders of magnitude better than it is right now. I am all for positive change, but these people need to really proceed with caution, there is a possibility that this could spiral out of control, and riots in our cities would accomplish nothing and are the last thing our country needs right now. There are plenty of people who could use the whole thing as an excuse to be violent and start looting, etc, and that is the real danger. Anarchy is not positive change. Neither is violence.

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by felonius
reply to post by jam321

 

Agreed.


I was also thinking....


Some of the greed was from the bottom up.

Buy a house for 250k and you can only afford 100k?

yeah.

Makes me think of the old sex pistols song "Anarchy in the UK".

"dont know what we want but we know how to get it!"

its all quite pathetic.

Wait...I will reply when I stop laughing....ouch my sides are splitting.

Whoa...That was a good one. Thanks!

Interesting fact is that 80% of those low income borrowers have managed to keep that home they could not really afford in the first place.
Any mortgage payment at all is 9 out of 10 times lower than the going rent rate in an area.

Only the poor can afford to eventually pay a 100 grand for a home somebody else gets to own and they can get booted out of and wind up with nothing.

The rich won't throw away their money like that. AND THEY ARE NOT FORCED TO

Funny huh?

What a hoot when those who made the loans get to reap the rewards of thier own greed ehhh?

Ha, Ha, Ha

Stupid is, stupid does

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
No one is leading. I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp. The older members will tell me I'm naive and have no clue what I am talking about; they will also start pulling random organizations out of their asses and start saying that the protests are controlled. No, the fact is these protests don't have coherent leadership. I've seen, sat in on, and have been around similar operations with some of these groups. These kids grew up doing random things on the internet in a organized fashion without leadership. Ideas are thrown in by everyone and a frenzy of flash debates begin, and a course of action is settled upon. In this scenario we have much of that, along with people being given the go ahead to do whatever they want as long as it's peaceful and legal.

Think of this like a flock of birds, or school of fish. Is there generally a leader? No, those creatures work in a weird way. I may explain it incorrectly, but you will understand what I am getting at. Flocks of birds and schools of fish have no leader or leaders. They move based on the actions of every other fish/bird around them. It's as if they are one autonomous being while retaining their individual movement and mind. These protests are similar. You may not accept it, and you may feel the need to inject conspiracy, but this protest is fully grass roots and without leadership...for now...maybe later the bankers and corporate heads will attempt to infiltrate, but it hasn't happened as of yet.

I completely agree. I have been around the people in this generation and this is how they work. This is the single most creepy thing I've read on this website.

*meh* at the mortgage thing. I count myself lucky that I happened to be properly caffinated when I went shopping for my house (first and only one, btw). Our "buyer's agent" was trying to convince us that we were seriously undervaluing the amount of house we could buy. This was 12 years ago and our household income was $45K with $10K in debt. This guy was trying to convince us to buy a $200K house! He even laughed in our faces when we said that was too much money.

Luckily I have always been a bit of a minimalist... I went for a $100K house and it has been ok. Others who are not as bright, educated, experienced, or caffinated can easily be swayed by someone who is only interested in a bigger commision.

I sympathise with homeowners who got bamboozled and will never sympathize with large banks. I have seen the industry from the consumer and the business side and that has pretty much solidified my views on it. Big banks will do anything they can to swindle consumers and then spin it to look like they are the innocent victims of lazy shmucks who don't want to pay their debts.

If you are in the business of acting in bad faith, then you should expect it to eventually blow up in your face.

These protests need to have decentralized leadership that rests on the shoulders of each individual protester. Create one leader and then that leader gets taken out say and the people lose resolve. This should be compared to a tsunami composed of a vast collection of water working together to effect change on something.

After more thought, I came to the conclusion that it is a good thing these people are protesting. Right now, they don't know exactly what they are protesting, but that should prompt some percentage of them to seek an answer to this vexing question. If they are open to discovering the truth, then they will find themselves protesting the exact same thing the TEA Party does!

Do I Know What I'm Talking About? It Is Possible That I Do Not. There's An Area Where Allegorical Poetry Gains A Mystical Influx On Metaphysical Certainly That Is No Different From The Theoretical Physics Where Theory Is Just Another Word For Things We Don't Want To Accept As ... Inevitable.

Originally posted by Afterthought
WHO is leading Occupy Wall Street is not the question.
The proper question is WHAT is leading Occupy Wall Street.

Anger.
Faceless, nameless, and undetainable.
It is within everyone who is protesting. It is their constant companion.

Fed up and angry, people are being led by their emotions.
Anger needs no leader and will not rest until it is satisfied.

What the world's governments and banking cartels have done has caused Anger to come knocking at each person's door. Awakening them from their slumber.

The banks and the governments have only themselves to blame for Anger coming to town.

Well said!

Those who are fed-up with what is happening are out there protesting, even if the individual reasons for being fed-up may be different They are so fed-up they are not really worried which way the change occurs, but change it must.

On the other hand, those who don't find it unbearable would keep arguing about what the protesters could do differently or how their goals are not "acceptable". If certain goals are standing out amongst the protesters, it is probably because only they seem to be angry enough to be out there. If people seeking different goals, but equally angry with what is happening get out and join them, we would start hearing their goals too.

reply to post by vonholland


This, folks, is war. We saw this in Vietnam. A group united in a rigid form with a rigid leadership structure is easily identified and dealt with. Autonomous individuals with varied degrees of radical commitment to various causes all vying for the dystopian dream are very very hard to track and deal with. Anarchists, Tea partiers, Communists, Taoists, New Agers, Socialists, Radical Republicans, Libertarians....all working toward cessation of governmental oversight and abuse. That's powerful. When a situation becomes so oppressive that it galvanizes diverse groups to action under the banner of a single cause and reaches across unfathomable demographics to form a collective movement...watch out. How are they going to track this kind of civil disobedience?

This is going to hurt them in a way they have not even begun to realize. It is going to liberate us and we will, when the dust clears, find ourselves in something better. There will be no free ride for anyone when this happens. No lone rangers. Survival will depend on group participation and real, hard work instead of entitlement and exploitation ofthe workforce. It is possible. It is happening. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but this is the beginning of change. Embrace it and get familiar with it.

Life outside this paradigm, known as Babylon to many, is not as bad as you imagine. Come take a look.

reply to post by butcherguy
The article was actually on ForexTV.com and the original story can be found here... www.forextv.com...

reply to post by ForexTV
Thanks for the link.
I was looking in the wrong place!

reply to post by PapaKrok
Interesting indeed. So tell me, when the establishment is dismantled and the infrastructure comes to a grinding halt...where do you get life's necessities? Not one person here could tell me where they would get an egg, a bar of soap, a glass of milk, a coffee bean, no less a pizza! 95% of the world is dependent on the global supply chain, which is kept in motion by banks who lend money to the shippers, farmers, processors, distributors and shop owners. What a pathetic vision this is. This is why I call this movement the Romper Room Revolution...it is a distraction for small-minded people who only think in gamer-think, here and now with absolutely no forethought of consequences. This is a weak-minded generation who has been conditioned into lowered expectations of themselves and their peers by a liberal education system. The past century gave us heros and innovators whose inspirations saved whole societies. The last century gave us: Einstein, Edison, Eisenhower, Salk...the list goes on. Who are the heros of this generation and this century? Snooky? Mark Zuckerberg? Kanye West? What a pathetic start to this century, and this generation's legacy in history.

This will be the generation known as the generation that was too stupid and too lazy to defend the Republic and everything that people like Jefferson stood for...there are no mentors and no connection with an older, or wiser generation...when the youth of a nation turns its back on the wisdom of its elders, it is doomed to fail. The generation of video game addicts that we have become does not stand a chance against the Chinese culture at any level. Culturally, academically, economically we have become fat and soft on liberal values.

There is a plan that will lift America from the cesspool it has become...it is called the Dutemple Doctrine and it can be read here: www.forextv.com...

Originally posted by Raivan31
If the leaders step out into the public eye and say "Here I am", they put themselves and their families and friends at risk of being hurt.

I was thinking along similar lines. I've heard reporters in OWS vids asking repeatedly "who's the leader?". It seems obvious to me that they're just looking for a name to smear. Anyone who steps forward as a leader will be researched and scrutinized to a ridiculous extent, to find whatever skeletons might be in their closet, so they can drown the airwaves with it and discredit the whole movement, by proxy, by discrediting the "leader".

They say to kill the snake, you cut off the head.
If there is no head, it's that much harder to kill.