100,000 rally against austerity in Portugal — in pictures

College-age middle class white folks take note: THIS is what popular protests look like.

Originally posted by pause4thought

100,000 rally against austerity in Portugal — in pictures

roarmag.org

Tens of thousands of people rallied in Portugal Saturday against the government’s austerity measures... amid projections that the economic situation was far worse than expected.

Government and private sector workers demonstrated in Lisbon and Porto following a call by the country’s largest trade union federation to speak out against policies it says threaten “jobs, workers, pensions and social rights.”

Rally organisers claimed 130,000 people demonstrated in Lisbon & 50,000 turned out in Porto.

(visit the link for the full news article)

So what has failed in Portugal? Capitalism or socialism?

Socialism is the idea that you own other people's property and should be able to use it any way you want. It would seem that socialism is failing in Europe. Capitalism is only viewed as failing in the USA because people are so foolish as to think it actually exists in the USA. What exists in the USA is corporatism. Of course socialism is not as bad as corporatism, so the USA is even worse off than Europe. The USA will continue a path to 3rd world status for as long as it clings to corporatism, which is very much still in public support given that Perry or Romney have the best chance of getting elected as USA president next election despite that they are the most corporate candidates running for office.

reply to post by seachange

So what has failed in Portugal? Capitalism or socialism?

Is it really necessary to put it in terms of a political dichotomy? Surely it's basically down to poor governance of the economy & foolish management of the banks / financial system.

What's ultimately needed is competent leaders / managers who have genuine integrity. (No matter what their political bias.)

Originally posted by seachange


Socialism is the idea that you own other people's property and should be able to use it any way you want.

Err, what definition of Socialism are you referring to?

It would seem that socialism is failing in Europe. Capitalism is only viewed as failing in the USA because people are so foolish as to think it actually exists in the USA. .

"Socialism" exists in Europe as much as "Capitalism" exists in the USA.

Originally posted by seachange
So what has failed in Portugal? Capitalism or socialism?

Neither, as far as I know, as an economic system, Socialism isn't used in any European country.

Also, from what I have seen, many people from the US mix Socialism with Social State, but they are not the same thing; the first is an economic system in which the means of production are either commonly or state owned, while the second means a government with social responsibilities towards the citizens.

What happened in Portugal was the same thing that happened everywhere, the banks stopped lending money to the people because they were afraid of the worldwide consequences of the failure of some financial institutions, so the people start spending less, the government gathered less money in taxes, etc. That, coupled with bad management, resulted in this present situation, helped by the rating firms that decide how much a country is worth based on their own ideas.

Portugal is one place we have a military base that makes no sense. The local people every year attack our citizens walking around in their country. And never get punished for it. Portugal hates America.

They REALLY hate tall people. It's odd. Find a really tall American and take him to Portugal and walk the streets. Within 1 day he'll either be jumped and sucker punched or stabbed.

Why we waste our money have a military presence in Portugal is beyond me. They hate us.

Originally posted by marg6043
Sadly history tells another story, it is in the make over of nations for "revolution" to grow and flourish when the nations governments stop "servicing" the people and service "special interest", that is what is going right now no only in the US but globally, governments are convering their mistakes, using words like "stimulus and bailouts" to plunder future generations of their wealth, to support big interest.

Economies are dying, this will only affect the populations not the ones that hold the wealth, so it will be very silly to say that revolution will not happen eventually.

I'm well aware of the problems and their causes. Shoot, I'm one of the few who tries (normally in vain) to stop blind hatred of groups or people when the real cause is the government (illegal immigrants are an easy quick example).

Economies are like ecosystems, they can be controlled to a point, they spring into existence, they can be destroyed, and they always come back. So if they die, they will be reborn without assistance.

As to "revolution", I don't doubt that it will happen at some point, and I've been vocal about it happening in my lifetime. That said, I don't want it to happen for a wide range of reasons and am disgusted by those who actually desire it. I believe they are short-sighted, are naive, or overly optimistic and narrow view of the results from revolution happening (or a combination of any of those three).

And again, the crusade to "wake people up" is a fools errand, but one that will keep many people busy who might otherwise be making a difference doing something constructive (or destructive, as the situation requires).

Peace
KJ

Originally posted by Pervius
Portugal is one place we have a military base that makes no sense.

It made sense during World War II.

The local people every year attack our citizens walking around in their country. And never get punished for it. Portugal hates America.

Some people may attack some US citizens, but that doesn't mean that we hate America, in fact, the only people that are always talking about hate are mostly from North America. If we didn't hate the US when they had war ships with their guns pointing to our parliament, there is no reason to hate them now.

They REALLY hate tall people. It's odd. Find a really tall American and take him to Portugal and walk the streets. Within 1 day he'll either be jumped and sucker punched or stabbed.

Funny, it's the first time I read about that, but if it's true I'm sure you will be able to find several cases from several different places with several American (I suppose you mean US) citizens from different walks of live to support that information.

Why we waste our money have a military presence in Portugal is beyond me. They hate us.

We don't, but you are making it easier.

PS: Americans do not have the monopoly of tall people, they are on average taller than the Portuguese, just that.

reply to post by ArMaP


ArMap, I can't help wondering how much difference these enormous mass rallies are having in your country. From what you say the participants are pretty chilled out. Is it because they're partly there for the experience (i.e. not yet as passionate as in Greece, say) or is it perhaps because they believe someone is listening to their demands?

Originally posted by Unity_99

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by Erongaricuaro
FREE AND EQUAL.

Did you know this?

Although Canada has not endorsed the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, Europe has and is among the 146 states in support Indigenous peoples' rights.
www.newswire.ca...

Who is saying the US has a problem with equality?

reply to post by pause4thought


It's a little more than that.

First, they have experience of things like that, as this was organised by a trade union federation and most of the people came from several unions and are used not only to demonstrations and rallies like this one, they are also used to have talks with the management of the companies where they work and some even with the government (we have talks between the government and the unions every year, to discuss the application of the new budget).

Being backed by a party that has 16 representatives in the parliament and being a large part of the whole country's workforce, they know that they are being heard.

But, judging by their apparent ages, there are many people that witnessed the Carnation Revolution and that know that the people can really make changes, but that they must give something in return, it's not just protesting because the taxes are going up for the electricity and natural gas (from 12% to 23%) or because the electricity is going to become even more expensive or because we will have to pay more for a visit to the doctor (we pay some 2 Euros each time we go to a Social Security doctor, but that price is going to be raised according to the inflation), the best way is to provide an alternative, and that's where the unions are most active and their work more important.

Also, it's not the first time the IMF has come to Portugal, we had some bad times in the 70s and the beginning of the 80s, and many people remember that and know that, when this phase ends, things will be back to normal.

PS: the Portuguese are a strange mix between optimists and pessimists, we are always complaining but we always have hope that things will get better.

Originally posted by ARealandTrueAmerican

Originally posted by seachange


Socialism is the idea that you own other people's property and should be able to use it any way you want.

Err, what definition of Socialism are you referring to?

It would seem that socialism is failing in Europe. Capitalism is only viewed as failing in the USA because people are so foolish as to think it actually exists in the USA. .

"Socialism" exists in Europe as much as "Capitalism" exists in the USA.

Yes, there is a big difference. One can be a socialist, meaning they are concerned with social issues, and another could be Socialist according to Marxism. The USSR believed in the Marxist socialism and it failed greatly.

What Europe is experiencing is that a lot of immigrants into various European nations are expecting the wealth to be shared with them without understanding the wealth is not really there except among a small group of people. To believe the larger group of people have wealth is straining the system.

I can't expect my neighbor to share his wealth with me anyway, because my neighbor probably worked at a different job than I did and earned more money than I did. To the American mindset though, that does not make my neighbor better than me. And a lot of us who are middle-class have had at times open our doors to friends and relatives to keep them from being homeless.

How many times have you seen middle-class people see a homeless person and say "Why doesn't somebody do something for that person?" and not understanding that they have the power to do something. Instead, it gets passed off onto the government's shoulders to take care of the problem. We want rich people to share their wealth, and the rich already are sharing.

I have been in poverty, I grew up in it, and I have been middle-class, but I have to take advantage of the opportunities presented to me without allowing someone else to be better than me. Rich people are not better, they just have a more positive flow of income.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
What Europe is experiencing is that a lot of immigrants into various European nations are expecting the wealth to be shared with them without understanding the wealth is not really there except among a small group of people. To believe the larger group of people have wealth is straining the system.

That's just a very small part of the problem, and not on all of Europe.

A large part of misunderstanding could be that the US does not have union representatives in our government. What we do have are unions who endorse candidates they feel would represent them. We may hear a lot of talk from candidates about unions who endorse them, those same candidates usually have to do a lot of butt-kissing to keep the endorsement money coming in to fund their campaigns.

I think that is fundamentally the biggest difference between the US and European governments.

So the people want government spending and eventual bankruptcy to continue?

reply to post by daggyz


No, they want less government spending, but most of the government's ideas presented at the moment are about how to get more money from the people, they have only presented two (if I'm not mistaken) ways of reducing government spending.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by seachange
So what has failed in Portugal? Capitalism or socialism?

Neither, as far as I know, as an economic system, Socialism isn't used in any European country.

Also, from what I have seen, many people from the US mix Socialism with Social State, but they are not the same thing; the first is an economic system in which the means of production are either commonly or state owned, while the second means a government with social responsibilities towards the citizens.

What happened in Portugal was the same thing that happened everywhere, the banks stopped lending money to the people because they were afraid of the worldwide consequences of the failure of some financial institutions, so the people start spending less, the government gathered less money in taxes, etc. That, coupled with bad management, resulted in this present situation, helped by the rating firms that decide how much a country is worth based on their own ideas.

I'm pretty sure at this point I'll just stop using those terms socialism and capitalism altogether since so few people understand them. You are incorrect that the same thing happening in Portugal is the same thing happening everywhere. Generally, things are doing more badly where you have governments that have heavier control of their economy, and things doing less badly in places where governments have lighter control over their economy. Things are going well (and less poorly for the poor) in the one and only economy to be something close to a free-market economy: Hong Kong. Things are going fair in the six most free-market economies in the world as ranked by the Index of Economic Freedom. Things are going poorly in the middle of the pack. Both Portugal and the United States governments spend 45% to 50% of all money spent within their economies. Therefore, both have highly restricted consumers since ultimately that requires half of all consumer spending on average to be controlled by the government and therefore all production (and consequently ownership of production) to be controlled by the government.

Originally posted by seachangeGenerally, things are doing more badly where you have governments that have heavier control of their economy, and things doing less badly in places where governments have lighter control over their economy. Things are going well (and less poorly for the poor) in the one and only economy to be something close to a free-market economy: Hong Kong. Things are going fair in the six most free-market economies in the world as ranked by the Index of Economic Freedom. Things are going poorly in the middle of the pack. Both Portugal and the United States governments spend 45% to 50% of all money spent within their economies. Therefore, both have highly restricted consumers since ultimately that requires half of all consumer spending on average to be controlled by the government and therefore all production (and consequently ownership of production) to be controlled by the government.

I got a little confused with your answer, could you please rephrase it, while keeping in mind that my understanding of English is not that good and that my understand of how world economy works is more or less at the same level?

Thanks in advance.