Children's Cave Art Dates Back 13,000 Years, page 1

Children's Cave Art Dates Back 13,000 Years, page

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Topic started on 2-10-2011 @ 12:45 AM by shauny

Archaeologists have discovered 13,000-year-old cave paintings that suggest prehistoric children were taught to draw by their parents. Prehistoric Cave Art Rauouffignac France There are many drawings throughout the caves Researchers at the University of Cambridge have been able to match the pictures of mammoths, horses and other animals to individual children based on the size of the markings. Line decorations, created by a technique called finger fluting, also appear throughout the five-mile cavern network in Rouffignac, France. Some of the flutings appear high up on the walls and ceilings, suggesting the children sat on their parents' shoulders as they drew.

news.sky.com...

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 01:00 AM by sir_slide

reply to post by shauny

That's pretty awesome. Nice find here.

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 01:16 AM by projectbane

reply to post by shauny

Firstly, is that the best pic of this artwork that there is.??

Secondly, maybe a dumb question, but how the hell can they tell the artwork is 13,000 years old. I can understand that the cave could be 13,000 years old but how do they know that the drawing is? IT could be 11,000 years old and they would have no real way of deducing the difference between 13,000 and 11,000 years when its in a cave. Its not like natural elements could play much of a part in the aging.

I have a dislike of the so called scientists today as I am sure most do not have a clue as too what they are doing. It seems to me that a lot of things like this are being "discovered" lately, making me really suspicious as too why in a time of recession so many discoveries are being made!!! Surely things like searching caves would be at the bottom of the priority list when tightening up on the spending.

edit on 2-10-2011 by projectbane because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 01:19 AM by kyred

I'll check this out.

I'm reminded of an historian who noted that there were footprints in a cave, that had paintings on the cave walls, and it appeared that a child was at one time in that cave and did what kids do......jumped into a puddle of water to make the puddle splash.

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 01:28 AM by Hanslune

Here is more information on the cave and how it was dated

The cave

According to André Leroi-Gourhan the style of the representations can be attributed to his style IV and belong therefore into the Middle Magdalenian, about 13. 000 years BP.

and a bit more info on the Middle Magdalenian

The mag

Attributing age by style can be iffy but I believe Byrd will have an expert opinion on this

edit on 2/10/11 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 01:33 AM by projectbane

Originally posted by Hanslune
Here is more information on the cave and how it was dated

The cave

That was interesting thanks. BUT, I still do not see how they can distinguish the date of the actual drawings. The CAVE yes, but the drawings NO. I would hazard a guess that many people inhabited those caves about 11,000 - 13,000 years ago and know which set of people left the drawing would be speculation. We are not even sure we are dating things correctly hence the recent debate about the Great Pyramid of Egypt and the fact it could be a lot er than first thought.

Its easier to date ice than certain structures like caves.

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 01:35 AM by Hanslune

Originally posted by projectbane

Originally posted by Hanslune
Here is more information on the cave and how it was dated

The cave

That was interesting thanks. BUT, I still do not see how they can distinguish the date of the actual drawings. The CAVE yes, but the drawings NO. I would hazard a guess that many people inhabited those caves about 11,000 - 13,000 years ago and know which set of people left the drawing would be speculation. We are not even sure we are dating things correctly hence the recent debate about the Great Pyramid of Egypt and the fact it could be a lot er than first thought.

Its easier to date ice than certain structures like caves.

I was adding more data went you posted. They appear to have dated the cave drawing by comparative style. I believe Byrd - one the regular posters here will have an informed opinion on this.

I'm surprized they don't have collaboration with ams dates

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 11:16 AM by shauny

Sorry my post was a little short, and without my thoughts, I was on my tablet and could only copy paste etc.

I agree, although a nice find, how do they know it was Children? I think this find, and the other one dating back 15,000 years recently show we know very little about who we are, where we are from and what we have become.

Cheers.
Shauny.

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 12:43 PM by Hanslune

Originally posted by shauny
Sorry my post was a little short, and without my thoughts, I was on my tablet and could only copy paste etc.

I agree, although a nice find, how do they know it was Children? I think this find, and the other one dating back 15,000 years recently show we know very little about who we are, where we are from and what we have become.

Cheers.
Shauny.

We know a great deal about our pass now than we did 200 years ago and even more than what we knew just 10 years ago - evidence keeps coming in as more and more research is done.

Kinda of a half empty versus half full ideology

edit on 2/10/11 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 03:06 PM by EnigmaAgent

Here is some better more detailed footage of the paintings from the BBC website.

www.bbc.co.uk...

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 06:26 PM by Byrd

Originally posted by projectbane
Secondly, maybe a dumb question, but how the hell can they tell the artwork is 13,000 years old. I can understand that the cave could be 13,000 years old but how do they know that the drawing is?

The cave is much older than that, actually.

Drawing styles are actually pretty distinctive -- here in the Southwest, we date rock art by style differences that the ordinary person would miss but that leap out at someone who studies them -- it's like seeing the words "the old" and "ye olde" written -- you'd say the first one was modern but the second ("ye olde") was Elizabethan English.

Well, art changes that much within a few hundred years.

You can't date one site, but you can date multiple sites. Sometimes important places were used and reused so you have layer after layer of different styles (which tells us which style came first, what came second, and so forth.)

I have a dislike of the so called scientists today as I am sure most do not have a clue as too what they are doing.

I hope you'll take the time to do some reading up on rock art in your area. You'd be surprised how many clues there are that the average person doesn't bother to look up!

It seems to me that a lot of things like this are being "discovered" lately, making me really suspicious as too why in a time of recession so many discoveries are being made!!!

1) it's in France, not in the US.
2) it's a known site, and known sites are researched constantly. You may think that here in the US, people know everything about Hondo, Texas... and that'd be wrong. The Texas Archaeological Society Field school conducted research dig there this summer There's always something new to discover when you go back with new tools and new ways of researching.

In rock art, some of the most recent research has been done by digital color photography (enhancing the faint red pigments... and it really works!) There's new discoveries there because nobody's had that tool available before.

I doubt we'll ever fully research any ancient site... there's too much new to do -- from analyzing ancient soils to mapping signs of human habitation from satellite imagery and ancient trade routes by the "out of place rocks" (rocks brought in from another area) that they find.

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 06:29 PM by Byrd

...that said, I'm not at all convinced that "children" are the only answer. It could be a drawing tool that was used (branches bound together or some other technique.) HOWEVER... I haven't read the papers on the site yet or found out why they think it was done by fingers.

I'd love to go there myself -- anyone want to fund a freelance anthropologist?

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 08:31 PM by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by projectbane
I have a dislike of the so called scientists today as I am sure most do not have a clue as too what they are doing. It seems to me that a lot of things like this are being "discovered" lately, making me really suspicious as too why in a time of recession so many discoveries are being made!!! Surely things like searching caves would be at the bottom of the priority list when tightening up on the spending.

Since you seem to have a pretty solid opinion on the subject, I would challenge you to do a Google search and find the closest expert and convey just that to him/her. Make an appointment and sit down and chat.

Really...it's a challenge, because talk is cheap and you have the wherewithal to talk to an expert...if you have the guts/strength of your convictions. Even an email. I have been amazed at the specialists who have kindly responded to my inquiries (ask me about the Norse silver some time).

But the fact is that you can muddle around being aggressively ignorant...or you can talk to a pro. Just check out your closest university and select the right individual. In fact...give me your general area and I'll find the right person for you.

If you have the stones.

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 10:01 PM by bigfatfurrytexan

reply to post by Byrd

All I need to know about Hondo, TX: The wife has relatives from there that I hope don't make any more trips to my house.

RE: the OP in general...I am always intrigued by cave paintings. I live in a pretty historical area, formerly covered with buffalo and Comanche indians. We have several carvings of various indian origin, as well as some from Depression era gringo's doing Roosevelt work in the 30's and 40's. There are many, many caves in the area, but I haven't been to any of them. Most are on private and secured land (or public and secured land). There are stories of some lost gold in one of them, and that fueled lots of searching (and deaths) back in the old days. Now it is mostly frowned upon.

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 10:38 PM by gort51

Theres that Connection again....Spain (Europe) and Australia.

I'll keep saying it.....I believe the Australian Early man is the DIRECT CONNECTION Descendant of
CroMagnon/Neanderthal/Modern Man..... people who left Europe and travelled East seeking warmer clims (Possibly), as the Ice age was still in force.......Anywhere between 100,000+ years to 50,000+ years ago, maybe earlier?.

I think the Geneticists claim that we all come from an Ethiopian Woman, 66000 years ago is flawed.

Not mentioning the Alien possible interrference......But we all know that Hominids already existed in Europe and Asia for 100s of 1000s of years before "African Modern Man", not to mention the Neanderthals that are up to 250,000 years old.

There were already people in the Northern Continents, way before that Ethiopian woman existed.

Most of these "scientists" are still guessing...What if it was the other way around..modern man started in Europe/Asia and moved into Africa and displaced/mixed with the primitive man...After all, Africa has more diverse versions of Man and culture, than any other place on Earth.
The "Out of Africa", is still ONLY a theory.

reply posted on 3-10-2011 @ 08:05 AM by JohnnyCanuck