Disbelief Is Not A Choice

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
in fact there is no choice in anything.

There's an interesting concept to explore!
I'll bet I could think of a few things.
But I digress, and perhaps we shouldn't divert the thread(?)

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


its weird how he *chose* to post about our inability to choose.

Originally posted by 547000

In other words have some humility and give the belief in God a fair shake, because only by believing in the possibility that He may exist will you be able to mean when you pray to Him to show you He exists. If you won't take the first step you will find squat. If after seeking for Him you don't find Him you lose nothing, but if the first step is necessary and you never take it you will lose everything.

Not only do I accept the possibility that there could be a God but I would also love it if there was one. The problem is that I'm not prepared to believe in something so ground breakingly amazing based on just a book written by man as a mind control tool. It's undeniable that we are dealing with mind control here, the psychological blackmail is rampant in religion. Believe in God or go to hell? That's the first little trap set by religion.

If there is a God (I'm using caps in 'God' in respect to other's beliefs) then I do doubt it would be what's described in the bible, punishing those who don't believe in him and all that stuff. If there was a God I very much doubt he would want to be worshipped too, I doubt a God would have an ego, if it did have an ego then God is petty and I doubt a being as advanced as that would be petty. If there was a God then surely all it would wish for is that people have lead a good life without hurting people, surely that would be enough for any Father of a species. The bible has given God a bad reputation, if he was real he'd probably look at it and think ''what a load of bollocks''

Originally posted by Hawkwind.
Hawkwind

Side note: I was Nik Turner's drummer when he toured in the States at various times in the 2000s. Fun!

Not only do I accept the possibility that there could be a God but I would also love it if there was one.

I'm not so sure I would love that, and I surely wouldn't if it were the biblical god.

reply to post by Neo_Serf


Truth. Truth is that which is justified and justifies. Life. Life is that which establishes and sustains. The Good Judge (also, The Way). The Good Judge is Orderly Charity and Charitable Order.

Because without Order, Charity falls into (explodes into) Chaos and without Charity, Order falls into (implodes into) Pride.

We exist at the crossroads, or the fulcrum of Life and Death.

Why does evil exist if God is good? Because we come from nothing, and are moving into Life. Why is decay being found in that process offensive or surprising? What is surprising is that we are dirt and that this dirt dances many different dances, and some of those dances express greater, eternal Life. Others will simply return back to the dirt.

For some, the Life planted in them will grow fruit and will be consumed by the Great Groundskeeper, and for others, they are dry wood, and they will be chopped down. In the end, all things serve Life.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


K This is so true Drum. There really are examples of what you are saying too. I don't believe for a second that
everyone is allowed to make a choice. The same way a psychopath is a remorseless human being because
they are born low on spiritualality. Possibly even minus a soul. As I believe the unexplained cause for being remorseless is.

Remorseless - Psychopaths - Born without a soul.

There are for the most part, those born who do not have any choice at all. They can't imagine why someone is in
disbelief.



Now don't make the mistake of assuming that I believe everyone who is an atheist is a psychopath or has no
remorse. But I absolutely believe that a psychopath is bound to the atheist view. Psychopaths do not believe in God. If you think about it, a person born with no remorse/a soul, could never believe there is a God. They're just
animated carbon compounds walking around only feeling the material experience ofd life. Pin pricks and such.
They never understand love because they can not see it of feel it.
There for they usually gravitate to places of power. Crushing or killing anything in there path if it is in the way.

I can absolutely make sense of what you are saying.

Originally posted by randyvs
There are for the most part, those born who do not have any choice at all.

That very well could be. But if that were the case wouldn't that idea be at odds with the concept of free will?

It's possible that for some Christians - those who emphasize the importance of free will - they could never understand that one is never a "chosen atheist".

Randy, I know you are a Christian... what are your thoughts on this? If some people don't have a choice then they couldn't have free will, could they?

Originally posted by randyvs
But I absolutely believe that a psychopath is bound to the atheist view. Psychopaths do not believe in God.

I might have to respectfully disagree with you there. Some psychopaths may not believe in gods but I'm sure we could pull many psychopaths out of history to find that not only did they believe in god, but often validate their behavior through religious passages. Plus, how many times every year do we hear of someone killing others and claiming god told them to do it?

I'm just saying that I don't think there's any correlation between psychopathy and atheism, and in fact there may even be a negative correlation.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


read some of the replys to your posts. what i did, you can do. first I'm well educated in hard science and advanced mathematics. I blew off religion years ago, it served no purpose for me, still doesn't. but a few years back i read thru an old book about astral projection. i gave it some consideration. so, one afternoon when it was very quiet i laid down for a nap. I cleared all waking thoughts from my mind, simple form of meditation. then as i lay there i repeated over and over, peace and love. i fell asleep and began to dream, it quickly turned into an out of body experience where all senses are working. i found myself in an out doors area, never seen it or been there, there were large rocks/boulders and scrubby trees. i walked thru this area and noticed that there was water running thru the rocks, ifelt it on my feet. then a male figure appeared in front of me. he never spoke or turned to face me. i followed him and came to a rock wall, when i crossed over it I found myself in the tunnel so often described in the near death experience. it was black and gray, no sound. I saw the light at the end of the tunnel and said "Our Dear Lord". it was the i got scared, cause we've all done things which we are not proud of. at this point i withdrew back into my body. since then i have had many visions and visitations from Mary and once from God. so if you want proof you will have to do this and once you have made contact you will see it is true, God does exist. and you do not need any religions. it will be in you. life will change forever and for the better. the thing about all this is each who questions God etc... will have to seek the truth themselves, there will always be those who reject it.

Originally posted by skydog801
so if you want proof you will have to do this and once you have made contact you will see it is true, God does exist.

Thank you very much for your story and advice!

I have to say though that my standards of evidence are a bit different. Though I can try astral projection, the only problem is that even if it works it is a subjective experience. The standard of evidence that I employ requires objective evidence. Without it I'm forced to disbelieve claims about deities.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by randyvs
But I absolutely believe that a psychopath is bound to the atheist view. Psychopaths do not believe in God.

I might have to respectfully disagree with you there. Some psychopaths may not believe in gods but I'm sure we could pull many psychopaths out of history to find that not only did they believe in god, but often validate their behavior through religious passages. Plus, how many times every year do we hear of someone killing others and claiming god told them to do it?

I'm just saying that I don't think there's any correlation between psychopathy and atheism, and in fact there may even be a negative correlation.

edit on 2-10-2011 by traditionaldrummer because: itchy

K I'll reply here first, come back to the other and apologise for my delayed response time. Don't ever wait around for me to respond because, damn it, I'm slow most of the time. Also if you took any offense in any way to my reply. You can know I realise it and wouldn't post anything as such without better reason then to insult you. So respect right back at you drum.

There was a thread on ATS not long ago. If you didn't catch it I'll link it for you. The facts on psychopaths are that they are not murderers or even criminals at all. Most seem to gravitate to p[laces of power. So be careful not to confuse a psychopath as serial killer or even a maniac. Although they on rare occasion can be psychopathic.
The murderers as you have described are more often, as in the case of the " Son of Sam " for instance. He was really an undiagnosed schizophrenic. He believed his dog was telling him to murder people. So if a psychopath is steeped in a Christian upbringing being an intelligent person ? He will know and quote the Bibles wisdom well.
But he isn't capable of love remorse or belief in God. Because of his undiagnosed, mind you, psychopathy.
Very interesting thread if you havn't read it.

So being an Atheist is not to say one is a psychopath. At the same time if one were to make this false statement ? It may not be the insult that the person making the statement, or the one recieving the statement,
might think it is. As the definition of a psychopath is stereotypically incorrect. Most psychopaths are in places of authority. By some means.

Originally posted by randyvs

But I absolutely believe that a psychopath is bound to the atheist view. Psychopaths do not believe in God.

I laughed when I read that. It's just that I've read about psychos killing because they heard the voice of 'God' telling them to, they don't just believe in God, they hear his voice, some of them that is. So I reckon that theory of yours about people not believing in God because they no soul is debunked.

Also, that's got to be a very unhealthy way to think.

Let me ask this, if a person was somehow raised by monkeys from birth (heh, like Tarzan) are they going to hell because they don't know about God? I hope someone can answer that because if the answer is ''yes they would go to hell'' then God can swivel because that's just out of order.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Side note: I was Nik Turner's drummer when he toured in the States at various times in the 2000s. Fun!

Man, you musta had a great time. I love Nik Turners voice, unique, love him on Chronicles.

reply to post by Hawkwind.


Read the response above yours again and get back to me.

reply to post by randyvs


I'm interested in your take on this post:

THIS post by traditionaldrummer

Okay, that does explain your thoughts better, fair enough. Moving on, I'm sincerely interested on what you think of my question below.

Originally posted by Hawkwind.

Let me ask this, if a person was somehow raised by monkeys from birth (heh, like Tarzan) are they going to hell because they don't know about God? I hope someone can answer that because if the answer is ''yes they would go to hell'' then God can swivel because that's just out of order.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by randyvs
There are for the most part, those born who do not have any choice at all.

That very well could be. But if that were the case wouldn't that idea be at odds with the concept of free will?

It's possible that for some Christians - those who emphasize the importance of free will - they could never understand that one is never a "chosen atheist".

Randy, I know you are a Christian... what are your thoughts on this? If some people don't have a choice then they couldn't have free will, could they?

They may be blessed with the knowledge of God. How could that mean they don't have free will ?
Akiana can reject God at any time. She has the free will to do so, no matter how unlikely that may be.

Drum

I'm interested in your take on this post:

Ok so what do you want to do about that ?

Originally posted by Hawkwind.
Okay, that does explain your thoughts better, fair enough. Moving on, I'm sincerely interested on what you think of my question below.

Originally posted by Hawkwind.

Let me ask this, if a person was somehow raised by monkeys from birth (heh, like Tarzan) are they going to hell because they don't know about God? I hope someone can answer that because if the answer is ''yes they would go to hell'' then God can swivel because that's just out of order.

Well I think that like Tarzan. The person would sooner or later realise he needs to mate.
Then of course finding that hard to do with monkeys. Would sooner or later seek out his own kind and the varibles from there would employ themselves. I'm laughing with you hopefully.

Originally posted by randyvs

I'm laughing with you hopefully.

Hehe, you are

Really though, there are many that say if a person does not believe in God then they will face eternal damnation, I doubt any intelligent being such as a/the God would allow such a thing to happen, I find it impossible to believe. If I ever found myself believing in God I'm almost certain it would not be the bible's depiction of God that I would feel.

reply to post by Hawkwind.


What you shoould be doing at this point in our conversation. This is IMO and according to my train of thought.
Not yours, as everyone has different ways of thinking, about everything there is to think about and that being a good thing we don't want to change that.

What I would be wondering from your perspective is how I can believe that God is exactly the one you wouldn't
choose to believe in ? When I know the same things that you do ? Yet I do believe it is belief in Christ that is the absolute truth. The gospels are the truth of good news. So how is that ? Well guess what ? There really is no choice to belief in God. It's really a fact that can't be denied because the evidence is everything and all of us.
You can choose not to accept this as evidence, but you lie to yourself when you make that choice.
God has only made the choice not to believe in him an available choice. He encourages no one to believe he doesn't exist. Eternal damnation to you means suffering by fire forever. God wouldn't be anything merciful if this were true, so it isn't true at all. Eternal damnatrion is just a second death that erases you from existence.
Which is actually what atheism has already accepted. So what I believe is that atheism after a quick look at what the truth is. Will also be correct. I don't think they will be happy with there choice not to believe in God and
Christ tho. I believe it will suck to see a glimpse of what they easily could have had. You reap what you sow.

I don't mean to distract, and will accept whatever you do, but it would be nice to hear your thoughts on what I posted previously.