Disbelief Is Not A Choice

Originally posted by seachange
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Originally posted by seachange
I believe the difference is scale. Atheists perceive either next to none or no evidence of God's existence. Agnostics perceive some evidence of God's existence but not enough for a positive affirmation. Theists perceive plentiful evidence of God's existence. That sounds right to me

Kind of, but not exactly. This is a common misconception: that agnostics are a kind of middle ground between atheism and theism.

Atheism and theism are matters of belief. Agnosticism and gnosticism are matters of knowledge.

Do you believe in god(s)? Yes - you are a theist, No - you are an atheist
Do you know that god(s) exist? Yes - you are gnostic, No - you are agnostic

So, one can be an agnostic atheist, or a gnostic theist or any combination of the above.

I believe I dont know. Thats my believe because I know its true.

Originally posted by 547000

Most atheist ask why they cannot find God. As an ex-atheist I can say most do not seek God. You have to seek Him with all your heart. I

In other words, believe hard enough and you will believe, like self brain washing. If you have to 'choose' to believe in something then that belief is not natural when it comes to these kinds of issues. It's not like choosing a favourite brand name either. The only true belief is belief that comes natural, choice should have nothing to do with it.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


If you can prove that belief in God or religion implies a contradiction then I'll bite on your choice argument. Otherwise, I'm inclined to think that both camps are taking a position (i.e. making a choice) on the basis of contingency.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I read what you have written and I still choose to believe that faith and belief are a choice!

We live in a world of myriad religions, philosophies, metaphysics, cultures, etc. We choose what want. We choose what best matches us as a faith or belief. If it was not a choice then what could it be? We either choose or we are forced to think, feel and act. That is the basics of it.

I CHOSE Christianity but I know that The LORD has to choose me, too. It is a "relationship", not just me involved; a two way process.

You, OP, did choose what you believe at this point in time. The only way your mind will change is if you decide it or someone else decides it for you (under force).

Originally posted by Kovenov
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

If you can prove that belief in God or religion implies a contradiction then I'll bite on your choice argument.

Implies a contradiction in what way?

Otherwise, I'm inclined to think that both camps are taking a position (i.e. making a choice) on the basis of contingency.

If that's the case then it's not a choice. Relying on contingencies to arrive at a decision is not a choice.

Originally posted by Revolution9
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

I read what you have written and I still choose to believe that faith and belief are a choice!

You, OP, did choose what you believe at this point in time.

No. My beliefs are not a matter of choice. I could no more choose to start believing in the existence of a deity tomorrow than I could choose to start believing in the existence leprechauns tomorrow.

I respectfully disagree that you have chosen Christianity. I'd wager the farm that external influence played such a role in steering you towards Christianity that there hardly was any other choice. You could be a convert to Christianity, though you had a pre-existent belief in deities and that also was probably not a choice.

reply to post by Revolution9


How is it a choice if the OP is not convinced? You were born an atheist were you not? Then you were taught theism and became convinced that was the truth, becoming a believer. The OP didn't become convinced, and does not believe as a result. Results are not chosen. Keep in mind, being convinced is somewhat of a choice though, as when one chooses to reason or question over the hope that your understanding or experience is not deceiving.

Originally posted by juveous
reply to post by Revolution9

 

How is it a choice if the OP is not convinced? You were born an atheist were you not? Then you were taught theism and became convinced that was the truth, becoming a believer. The OP didn't become convinced, and does not believe as a result. Results are not chosen. Keep in mind, being convinced is somewhat of a choice though, as when one chooses to reason or question over the hope that your understanding or experience is not deceiving.

I am starting to think that the only beliefs that we have that are choices are those things we choose to believe that we know are untrue. Such as is the case of being in a state of denial. One may have an abundance of evidence indicating a spouse is unfaithful though may still choose to believe their spouse would never be unfaithful to them.

Another factor to consider in these types of threads is what constitutes evidence. If we are claiming whether an idea is an actual belief, choice or combination of both we need to establish what evidence is available to determine this.

For Theists, the existence of a Holy Text (Bible, Torah, Quran) among other things are proof that God exists, and to disbelieve in these texts is seen as a rejection of belief. In their minds, evidence has been presented and people have chosen to discard the messages in these texts. This represents a choice.

For Atheists, Holy Texts do not constitute evidence of the existence of a deity, therefore they are not evidence that God exists and rejecting them are not beliefs. In their minds no evidence has been given that God exists and therefore not believing in God is not a choice.

I believe this is what the OP has been implying from the start and tend to agree.

Since I had a spiritual awakening I have proof for my self that there is something out there helping me. The proof was an opening crown chakra. That means i feel stuff on my head. Sometimes it's like the sun is radiating on the top my head and sometimes it feel's like something is touching my head. It is a very nice experiance except when the feeling goes towards my nose. Its a pain in the a** when it it's pinching above my nose .

My way of understanding people is that everybody is unique in their belief due to their experiances in life. I choose to belive somethings but i modify my belives as i get more information. My faith evolves. The thruth is that everybody have their own reality. The thing with orginized religon is that it is mostly building up ego. Our god is the right god. We have the right way to follow god. And then we have the powers of the churches that is manipulating the belivers. I belive in that All is One. That we are part like cells connected to an scentient body. I belive in karma and rebirth and that the life we live here is to learn something or help with something. I belive that all soul/spirits will be enlightened and that you will continue your journey until you get there. It is not a race. There is no throphy to be there first. I belive that hell is a state of mind that you can be in when you are afraid/hateful and that heaven is also a state of mind in witch you feel nice thought/compassion and love for your fellow man. I belive that all souls have the same value. There is no one above me or below me. I will not accept a god that bullies and will revolt against that with everything that I am. I also belive that you belive as you should right now in your development and if it is meant to change then you will change. You have the choice to be exactly what you want but you will also pay for the things you do that are bad. But I have understood that I will do bad things sometimes because I will not know any better. When I figure out that I have done something bad I will take responsability and try to fix it as good as I can.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


appologies but , i disagree with your entire premise

my world view is that i was born an atheist , in that i had no independant knowledge of godhood - but the notion was thrust upon me by society , [ this was aged 5 ~ 14 aprox ] -

for reasons beyond the scope of this reply , i questioned and challenged the beliefs and dogmas of protestant christianity , untill i had my ` epithany ` and realised that i rejected all the tennants of the anglican church

where did this leave me , with atheism - of course

and that was by choice , i was aware of other world faiths - but refused to embrace them for similar reasons that i rejected christianity

thus , in my mind - i am atheist by choice

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

appologies but , i disagree with your entire premise

my world view is that i was born an atheist , in that i had no independant knowledge of godhood - but the notion was thrust upon me by society , [ this was aged 5 ~ 14 aprox ] -

for reasons beyond the scope of this reply , i questioned and challenged the beliefs and dogmas of protestant christianity , untill i had my ` epithany ` and realised that i rejected all the tennants of the anglican church

where did this leave me , with atheism - of course

and that was by choice , i was aware of other world faiths - but refused to embrace them for similar reasons that i rejected christianity

thus , in my mind - i am atheist by choice

I still contend that you arrived at atheism because you had no choice.

Disbelief results from a claimant failing to meet the burden of proof for a given claim. If one disbelieves, it arrives from a condition in which choice is not a factor. Furthermore, if you've systematically ruled out other religious belief options you've whittled your options down to zero and there's nothing left to choose from.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


To the extent that regarding religion or God or gods as true is necessarily false. If it's necessarily false and you affirm that it is true then you are effectively affirming a contradiction. This, from my point of view at least, gets to the idea that either God(s) true or God(s) false must be a contingent truth unless it can necessarily be shown true or false. That is, if one or the other is necessarily true then you have no choice; otherwise, there is a choice in the matter because it's possible (but perhaps not probable) that the view you affirm may be false.

It's the "all possible worlds" idea first espoused by, I think, Leibniz. If in all possible worlds God or religion or gods cannot exist then this is a state that is necessarily true. If on all possible worlds God or religion or gods is only true for, say, only one world (or more) then it is a contingent truth. So omitting choice from this dialectic of possible worlds where it could be true just doesn't feel like the most natural choice.

In any case as a converse to youngsters being inculcated into the belief system of some particular religion, it is probably just as true that a child brought up in an environment where God or gods or religion is taught as false will greatly influence his or her long term perspectives as well. As for the Tooth Fairy ... I don't regard that as a particularly charitable line of argument. It was just subtle enough to equate belief in the Tooth Fairy with belief in gods or God or religion in general. I mean compare and contrast the impact on the lives of people who believe in a particular religion to those who believe and perhaps worship the Tooth Fairy. I mean come on, seriously?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Your point is valid in it's logic, but only if we assume free will is without bounds. However, anyone can see that all things are bound by many things in this realm.

You certainly form your understanding from your observations. And I am confidently a "mystic" or "gnostic" (not as literally defined in historical doctrine) as the inner working of many aspects of "logic" or "ideas" have been shown to me to observe and from that much faith (spiritual understanding, not "belief" as faith is commonly interpreted to mean) has come.

I can easily understand why, if these things are not shown to you, you would not understand.

reply to post by Dasher


I should also clarify. Where "accepting our bounds" should lead us is not to the conclusion that you didn't chose your atheism, but rather, that Life gifts spiritual understanding (faith). Faith is a gift, not a choice as many false believers claim. Carnal existence is also a gift. My sig below is there for a good reason.

Religious belief is so a choice....

I was raised Christian, I studied for myself and came to the conclusion that well.... Let's just say, I am agnostic now.

Being gay, is not a choice. Very true. It is something you are born with.You are not born with religion though. It is something you are taught and many people change their minds, choose to switch religions because they think that one makes more sense... etc....

Originally posted by Dasher
And I am confidently a "mystic" or "gnostic" (not as literally defined in historical doctrine) as the inner working of many aspects of "logic" or "ideas" have been shown to me to observe and from that much faith (spiritual understanding, not "belief" as faith is commonly interpreted to mean) has come.

I can easily understand why, if these things are not shown to you, you would not understand.

No offense, but you'll probably have to show me because I cannot understand it the way that you wrote it.

.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Yes, religion is a choice, spiritual understanding is not.

Being gay may or may not be a choice, but acting on it is. What we do know is sexuality is rarely a choice, but acting on it is. So, I care not what a person's basic instinct is and care more for what understanding they express and foster in the world?

Do they mate physically without mating spiritually? Do they mate emotionally, but lack the ability to actually mate with the person they are mating with? I take these things as obvious examples of chaos. Mating physically and not spiritually is simply mutual masturbation with penetration. Mating emotionally, but lacking the ability to normally conceive, well that's just simply pretending to be something your're not while masturbating with possible penetration. Chaos is very similar to liberty. It is also a form of destruction. So, be free if you will. However, Crowley's ideas might not be the best person to found your understanding on.

To each their own. But this is my own.

Then again, I've only ever had sex with my wife.

And I want to reiterate; To each their own. This is my own view and I do support gay rights. That does not mean I have to agree with their justifications/belief system.