The Dead Sea Scrolls, a few interesting things for ats members.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Just saying something is true does not make whatever you said, true.
Obviously what you are saying is not true and I can see no way where it could be true.
Have you killed anyone lately who you saw breaking the Sabbath?
If not, you are not keeping the OT Law.

reply to post by graphuto

YOUR POSITION DOESN'T MAKE BIBLICAL SENSE!

Of course the Old testament is going to support the OT Law, so what is the point of quoting from the OT?
If you are trying to show prophecies concerning the Law, that does not work because Jesus said that the prophecies were in affect up until the preaching of John the Baptist.

Dude, I quoted alot of NT also. When they were WRITING the NT, there WAS NO NT. You can't define the NT without the OT.

Of course, you didn't quote any scripture to back up what your position is, BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY.

Originally posted by graphuto
The pattern for righteousness has been the same since the beginning: FOLLOW GOD'S COMMANDMENTS!

Back in the day, way back in the time of mythology, following God's commandments had to do with a person named Moses who communicated with an angel who had great things to say about himself.
Now to follow God's commandment is to believe in Jesus, who says great things about his Father.

What is sin? Disobedience to God.

Don't see the relevance of this question.

Mark 7:9
He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

Jesus next brings up a subject which is mentioned in the ten commandments, and says, , ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ in order to show how important it is, then shows how their practice nullifies the spirit of that law which is to love the ones who gave you your very life. So, another example of how Jesus used the Law of Moses to demonstrate the fundamental laws which it was based on, which is the law we are promised that is the New Covenant, a spiritual law.

Mark 10:5
But Jesus said to them, “ Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
Mark 10:4-6

This points out the difference between the old, written Law, and the new, spiritual Law of the New Covenant. The spiritual law is more strict concerning the treatment of others, which is possible because it comes with the change of heart possible through the agency of Jesus to send the Holy Spirit to us.

Mark 10:19
You know the commandments, ‘ DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”

This is the story of the rich young man who came to Jesus, apparently wanting a list of things to do, and Jesus is essentially saying, “If you want a list, you already have a really big one you can look at, and then shows the young man that there is a fundamental law beyond that list which he needed to follow. Since he had not yet received the Holy Spirit which Jesus went to Heaven to send back to us, he was not ready to accept the spiritual law.

Mark 12:28
One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?”

Where Jesus is asked specifically about the Law of Moses and gives an answer from it but not one which we would normally think of as a commandment but a saying which Jesus saw as a written expression of what the spiritual law was all about. Then the person who asked the question responded to the answer in a way that showed he understood the concept of a fundamental law, Jesus said, You are not far from the Kingdom, which is the person was at that moment ready to step into the Kingdom of God which Jesus came to announce the presence of.

Mark 12:31
The second is this, ‘ YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Again, Jesus was asked specifically about what he thought was the important commandments in the Law of Moses, so he answered accordingly, in a manner which emphasized the fundamental spiritual law behind it.

Luke 1:6
They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

It mentions the commandments which back then would likely mean the Law of Moses, which was still in effect up to the time of Jesus' crucifixion. It also says, requirements, which seems to be something beyond just the commandments, which could mean that they were spiritual persons who had true love, and did not just act out the formalities.

Luke 18:20
You know the commandments, ‘ DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”

This is essentially the same story as the one in Mark 7, which I answered above.

Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

There is a place in the NT which describes the weight of all the stuff they had to use for the embalming, which would have caused a problem since there was a restriction on carrying burdens on the Sabbath.

John 10:18, John 12:49, John 12:50, John 13:34, John 14:15, John 14:21, John 15:10, John 15:12

These are just verses that have the word, commandment in them, but has nothing to do with the Law of Moses. Some are the commandments that Jesus gave which is what he meant when he said the this law will not pass away.

Romans 7:8
But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
Romans 7:10
and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
Romans 7:11
for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
Romans 7:12
So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Romans 7:13
Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Paul points out the Law of Moses gave death, which he summarizes by saying that it is good in that it makes you realize you need to find something better, so as not to die.

Romans 13:9
For this, “ YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “ YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

Paul is reiterating what Jesus had pointed out earlier.

Romans 16:26
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

This is just another verse that has the word, commandment in it but is not about the law of Moses.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

The new commandments of Jesus are important, not the old commandments from Moses.

Proverbs 6

23 For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching is light;
And reproofs for discipline are the way of life

John 14

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

So at the time when He actually said this, you know, they're all practicing "Jews." He was a living version of the Word! He followed all of the commandments. Then what did He say? "Take up your cross, and follow me!"

He even told us he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it, i.e, show us how it's done.

The new commandments from Jesus aren't new at all, they're just all encompassing... Frankly I don't see any important places where else we really disagree.

I'd just like for you to outline your position in a biblical manner.

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

If we're following Christ, and doing as he did, we're following the commandments, making a concious effort in everything we do to not sin.

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

If you're in the spirit of Christ, then you'll be following God's commandments. Thus, not under the law. And when you DO blunder, as we all assuredly do, you don't have to go to the high priest with a lamb to sacrifice for your disobedience.

reply to post by graphuto

He followed all of the commandments.

No, he actively broke the Sabbath commandments.
For Jesus to fulfill all the commandments, he would have had to have been also a woman, and the High Priest.

Obviously ALL of the commandments can't POSSIBLY nor are they MEANT to be followed by EVERYONE.

Some of them require you to be a woman. Others require you to be a priest.

funny, I could have sworn this was a thread about the Dead Sea Scrolls.

seriously guys, take your argument somewhere relevant. Nothing wrong with the arguments themselves, but why must you always take them to other people's threads? None of this has anything to do with the OP.

reply to post by graphuto
So obviously your claim is invalid even as a claim, so no proof is necessary, one way or another. You are just making things up about Jesus to fit your personal philosophy, irregardless of what the NT says or does not say.

You keep dodging by neglecting to outline your position with ANY scripture.

reply to post by graphuto
My position is that you ignore the existence of the New Covenant and insist on the old one still being in place.
Old system=everyone dies
New system=some live, based on a judgement where the criteria for pass / fail is Jesus

I don't deny the existence of the New Covenant. I'm saying that it doesn't give us free reign to break the 10 commandments.

Also, everyone DIDN'T die in the old system, thats just crazy...

Abraham,Isaac,Jacob,Solomon...Etc, etc...

Furthermore, I'd like for you to define "New Covenant" using the bible, not some philosophy or theology.

Originally posted by graphuto
I don't deny the existence of the New Covenant. I'm saying that it doesn't give us free reign to break the 10 commandments.

How did it all of a sudden switch from The Law of Moses, to the Ten Commandments?
Jesus did break the Sabbath commandment and gave examples of how it was normally broken, already, so he was not advocating following the letter of the Law, but was talking a bout a knowledge of God's will for us, through the Holy Spirit. I am not advocating "free grace" as in an instant first class ticket to heaven, guaranteed.
Faith is a term adopted by Paul as the substitute for the old, written Law, which is a free gift, which we follow if we want to wind up in the better place, where Jesus is. So, the belief, the faith, the guidance, the transformation of the personal will towards God's will, through the Spirit, is all things freely given to us through the agency of Jesus which he has acquired the right to give, through his own righteous acts and personal sacrifice.
If we decide that it is more important to sin, and have monetary gratification in place of the more permanent version, and cut off the connection so as to not have that bothering our conscience, then we remove ourselves from the company of Christ and our future is uncertain.

Eh, I was never really talking about the law of Moses. I am talking about the law of God as patterned from the beginning...

Adam-Obey me

Noah-Obey me

Abraham-Obey me

Etc, etc...

So what exactly do we disagree on?

Originally posted by graphuto
Eh, I was never really talking about the law of Moses. I am talking about the law of God as patterned from the beginning...
So what exactly do we disagree on?

This statement you made earlier,

Jmdewey, how can you just ignore all the proof that OT law is to be followed today?

I say, no. There was an OT law, patterned after, in part, a more basic spiritual principle, on which Jesus pointed out and we understand now, that Jesus became our representative in Heaven so that we can share in the good things of God, as in the Holy Spirit, though we are not holy in ourselves.

Originally posted by Jordan River

Originally posted by Amanda5
Hello - I am interested in your post because I need to learn more about the Bible. My understanding is that the Dead Sea Scrolls form the basis of what we know to be our Bible - albeit in many versions. Recently I have learned that the Bible had several sections removed/omitted such as the Book of Enoch.

Is what you present here part of the Bible we know or does it represent the omissions?

Thank you. Much Peace...

Many books were omitted due to hearsay (Gnostics mainly) and other stories were deemed fake/forged. The bible you have (the standard bible) this work was created through many early church farthers and other pious people. Do not let anyone tell you that the nicean council created the bible, that is a misconception. IT took a few centuries to create the New testament.

the truth of the matter is that the first official claiming of a complete New testmament was around 367 ce. from a powerful bishop of alexandria "athanasius. So you could probably guess sometime around 200 adish

Did you know that the Catholic bible have more books in it than a reformer?

That being said these claimed "forged and fake" books were omitted. But the books paint a great picture of Christ early years, and even a epic tale of Jesus going to hell for 3 days "before resurrection" Probably my favorite.
These are the christian apocrypha which I recommend reading first.

Is any books that are in the Catholic apocrypha in the dead sea scrolls?