The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

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posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by alien
IF ones *intent* is to 'lead people to God' (and please, lets all just for a brief moment lay aside the usual circular debates around God, whose God, what God, or God/s) ...then my personal opinion is simple: Lead by example.



I'm all for that - - and respect that.

In my entire life - - I can count on one hand those I've met that I would say "truly walked in His footsteps".




posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by alien
IF ones *intent* is to 'lead people to God' (and please, lets all just for a brief moment lay aside the usual c
So...if your actions and approaches are causing people to revile you, to turn from you, to move AWAY and not TOWARD...then "check yo'self befo' yo' wreck yo'self"...


If it is God's Will that someone lead another to God, then God will choose the messenger, not man.

Otherwise he is leading people to himself.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


No, I lived in Canada, predominantly Catholic and Anglican/Presbyterian/United Church, not fundamentalists. However, Scottish Rite Masonry runs BC. And I don't call that Christian, its got a whole different polarity.
edit on 1-10-2011 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by Xtraeme
So by that token, if I were to extrapolate, you're suggesting people who aren't experts or well versed in a topic shouldn't talk about the subject matter?


No. I pointed out that information from ancient literature can contain falsehoods and disseminating it as helpful could have dire consequences.


I suppose you'd also agree then that people who know nothing about the geosciences shouldn't be involved in the climate debate?


I believe you've misinterpreted me.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
Heck - 50 years ago in Christian dominated suburbs of Los Angeles - - you could get fired for not being Christian.


This still happens in 21st century America bible belt. Being outed as an atheist in my region can invite ugly, hurtful people upon them.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by rschmfem

Originally posted by Frira
The flip side of the OP's question is one I have wondered about...
Is it moral to force someone to make a choice without first allowing the person to consider the whole of the faith?
 

Is it moral to force someone ...[insert anything here...]?
Always ... Always No. Forcing someone against their will sexually is rape. Forcing something physically against their will is abuse. Forcing something mentally against their will is mind control. Whatever it is... it's a form of control and is usually thought to be morally wrong.


Your post has nothing to do with mine; it ignores my points to make your own. Yet...

I wrote "force someone to make a choice without first..."

That is a significant and substantial qualifier in the word "choice"-- and hardly the equivalent of your claim of "rape." That sort of rhetoric is emotional hostility and intellectual violence on your part, not on mine. In your model, asking someone if they would want to have sex is equivocal to "raping them."

There are many imperative choices in life, and I am not willing to concede that what one does about matters of the soul is not an internal imperative which may recur in one's life, and certainly not conceding that for another to point it out is somehow immoral. Surely you are not saying that no choice is imperative?

Yet, you seem to be claiming that no one has the right to even ask anything of another, and if they do, then that is violence. Good luck with that-- you are going to need it.



But on the other hand, one might argue that to have morals one must have some kind of faith in something or standards in something. Something that would keep them from behaving in a forceful way towards another human being.

I could be way off on this, but that's my gist and my opinion. What do you think about the more generalized view of morality and being forced to do something against your will?


As in the (mostly false) claim that "You cannot legislate morality?"

Of course, all authorities do exactly that-- legislate morality-- or at least ethics. Taxes are an ethical matter since they are about the redistribution of wealth or property. Murder is an ethical matter, universally legislated against. The difference between ethics and morals is that the former is external and the latter is an internal matter of conscience.




Speaking of forcing, technically being Christian or choosing to be Christian is giving up your free will. A gift from a God that you believe in so that you can choose to follow him freely, but after you make that choice your free will is more than likely null and void due to the strict guidelines of maintaining Good Standing status with your God and your Faith and your Church, etc etc.


Really? I have not noticed free will or free choice diminished in the least-- I just have different choices (and perhaps a different will) than those who do not share the faith I hold as true.

"Good Standing?" That seems rather alien as to thought for me.

My relationship with my Dad was not propelled by a desire to stay in "good standing" with him-- but choices sometimes brought such a thought to mind-- "would Dad be pleased or upset or neutral?" That was especially so as I was young and unfamiliar with the scale of effects of my choices on others and on my own self.

What propelled my thoughts and actions concerning my Dad was that I loved him and that I knew he loved me-- by his actions toward me. It was a relationship-- my Dad seeking to guide me, protect me, but let me live my life as fully as I was able-- choosing good, and not just for me, but for others when I was able to do so.

My Dad did not expect me to remain a child under his watchful eye-- he expected me to grow so that I could have watch over myself, become a man as he already was a man, join him in that fulfillment of becoming what is expected, but seemed so impossible when I was a child-- too far from what I was to really grasp that it not only could be, but would be so, with work and patience.

So you may see how the Christian Gospel, summarized in one statement sounds so very far-fetched and yet is so naturally embraceable: "God became man, so that man might become God." I am not a slave to God, I am His child, and so I try to act like it, through hard work, patience, and the wise guidance of others doing likewise-- to become far more than I am, to fulfill the promise of the Gospel. That promise is to ME-- and to all others.


****

I say You and mean people in general that have this faith, thought, view point. Yes, I'm biased. So please give me your 2 to 25 cents. I love learning new things from other people, and am always open to others opinion, as I'm constantly morphing my own as I learn and age and experience.


Good enough.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 04:18 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 



I completely agree:

While I tend not to like to use the Bible as reason for my opinion...

As 2 Corinthians 10:17 speaks of regarding 'authority':

But “he who glories, let him glory in the LORD.” For not he who commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 04:21 PM
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What about those Christians that try to have creationism taught as a science in schools, I understand that there are even some who would like nothing better than for TOE to be removed from the curriculum – this is forcing a belief on people

And parents that raise their children in a faith – and that’s certainly forcing a belief on people



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Frira
First...

Is there really a problem of Christians harassing some of you, demanding that you believe as they do?

There is a lot of rhetoric portraying that as how it really is, but I live in the infamous Bible Belt, and yet have never encountered anything that could be described that way.


There's a reason we Wiccans aren't very open about our religion down here. 30 years ago, saying you were Wiccan or running a Wiccan store could get your tires slashed and your car shot at. Frequently.


I try to lay low as a Christian (except here, anonymously) and I have been shot at and I have had my tires slashed. Now that you mention it, I wonder if it was done by Wiccans.

Still, I have lived here all but five years of my 51 years, know some Wiccans, and have not heard a report such as yours-- much less, "frequently.".



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by NeverSleepingEyes
is it moral to try to share a mental disease? I would say "no".
It . Is . Debated . Whether . There . Is . Such . Thing . As . A . Mental . Disorder . Directory of Mental Health Professionals who oppose involuntary psychiatric "treatment" I know some of this is derived (or is claimed to be derived) from a Christian view on demons, but not all of it is rooted in this.

Originally posted by Frira
Why?

Because the Christian faith is difficult. It demands discipline, self-sacrificing choices, endurance, and an unending striving for God and against the world, the flesh and the devil. Except for the fact that I believe Christianity to be true, I would not wish it on anyone.
Amen. Thank God for Grace, otherwise it would be hell.

Originally posted by rschmfem
Speaking of forcing, technically being Christian or choosing to be Christian is giving up your free will. A gift from a God that you believe in so that you can choose to follow him freely, but after you make that choice your free will is more than likely null and void due to the strict guidelines of maintaining Good Standing status with your God and your Faith and your Church, etc etc.
Yes and no. Some people present the argument that God doesn't have free will himself because he is limited by what is absolutely right in any given situation, so forget what humans have to do. The thing is that it's not about eliminating all of your choices, but getting rid of the ones that are unsound.
Take a business. There's only so much fail you can put into a business before it fails altogether, but some choices you make as a business has nothing to do with whether or not you're going to succeed. In the break-room, should we use paper or plastic? Innocuous.

The same thing happens in Christianity. I'm not the best reasoner in the world, but I can produce some pretty provocative conversations because my brain doesn't automatically come to the same conclusions as everyone else out there. (NOT saying I'm sooooo special. that's a silly thing to worry about.) But being in debates of any sort, like this, takes away time from my other talents. I sing, make music, cook, write, draw, fix displays, pretty much any craftwork out there, but I can't do that while debating something in here. I'm just not supposed to go around boasting about every little thing I can do out of arrogance--even if I can back them up. (Oh, so why did I say anything about what I do: Have you heard jack of all trades, master of none? I will NEVER be noticed for anything I do, if all I ever do is dabble in such a spastic manner as I do, with what talent I have.) but I get to meet everyone in all sorts of walks of life, and I get to be a character. I may not be able to sleep around, but I feel free to a lot of things that few around me ever get to do. Not that bad a trade, for me.

Originally posted by DenyStupidity
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


If there is such thing as God, why did he make me an atheist?

Funny, I thought decided to be one.

Originally posted by Annee
Uh huh - - - I was a believer for 50+ years.

I admitted to Atheist only the last 5.

When you are Atheist for 50+ years - - then admit you are a believer the last 5 - - - we might then have something interesting to talk about.

Christians have a serious persecution complex. I know. I was one for many years.
Yes, most do. That's because people fail to realise that they're in a group that's supposed to be giving up their rights.
(As in, how can you forgive if you insist on being hurt?) It doesn't change the fact that some Atheists do really persecute others for their beliefs. My frustrations fall on, where is the Joy we're supposed to have when this happens?



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by racasan
What about those Christians that try to have creationism taught as a science in schools, I understand that there are even some who would like nothing better than for TOE to be removed from the curriculum – this is forcing a belief on people


Indeed it is, as it is not knowledge (as is TOE) but an assertion unbacked by any evidence. This is the equivalent of demanding that astronomy be removed in order to teach astrology. Anti-science Christians tend to announce their clownish ignorance through their very existence.


And parents that raise their children in a faith – and that’s certainly forcing a belief on people


Indeed it is and is the source of lifelong psychological problems for a great number of people.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Christians have a serious persecution complex. I know. I was one for many years.
Yes, most do. That's because people fail to realise that they're in a group that's supposed to be giving up their rights.
(As in, how can you forgive if you insist on being hurt?) It doesn't change the fact that some Atheists do really persecute others for their beliefs. My frustrations fall on, where is the Joy we're supposed to have when this happens?



No one can be or feel responsible for the behavior/actions or interpretation of belief/non-belief individuals.

There are extremists and just plain wackos in every aspect of humanity.

However - - - as an organized group - - Christians have a persecution complex.

They think they are being attacked - - - even though they are the ones invading everyone else's space - - and think its their duty to do so.
edit on 1-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by Annee
I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.


This is the whole problem my friend. Everyone is fighting over silly titles to land NO ONE owns.



Those "silly titles" are attached to - - political power and money.

Taking power away from religion (specifically Christian) in this country is NOT a problem -- it is a NECESSITY.

And that is the main reason for Atheists organizing.



edit on 1-10-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)


Nature abhors a vacuum. I agree that many Christians (or at least, too many) use their faith like a weapon; but when you remove that power from them, someone will step in to fill the void.

Who you wish to fill the void may not be who you want-- unless it is you, of course.

Furthermore, those who would use their faith to influence others to bend to their own personal wills... that is absolutely the same as the atheists organizations acting to strip those Christians of any undue influence. Atheists organizations, like Christian organizations, use power to influence where they believe it is needed.

So, count yourself into the group of those who have become the very thing they hate.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


Then the other servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your gold coin; I kept it stored away in a handkerchief, for I was afraid of you, because you are a demanding person; you take up what you did not lay down and you harvest what you did not plant.’ He said to him, ‘With your own words I shall condemn you, you wicked servant. You knew I was a demanding person, taking up what I did not lay down and harvesting what I did not plant; why did you not put my money in a bank? Then on my return I would have collected it with interest.’


Really? There were interest bearing banking systems? I thought Jesus frowned upon usary, taking interest on loaned money, and considered it sinful. Didn't he throw the money merchants out of the temple?
1. It's a parable. Sort of like more modern fables: the boy who cried wolf. The analogy can only go so far. 2. The money changers were there because: Roman coins had their Roman God AKA whatever Caesar was in power. The Jewish Zealots (which the Pharisees are often related to) did not want the coin of another god in their temple, so they made Jewish coins that did not have anything to do with Rome. Since you could only get the coins from the Temple, they could set the trade ratio for the same weight/quality gold coin in their favour, thereby turning a profit over something that could have been done in a more equitable manner, thereby robbing the people, and showing much more interest in profit than in worshipping God. (Also, a certain value of coin was a traditional donation to the temple, and you were buying sacrifices as well, with temple money. Nothing to do with Tithing, that's a different thing.)

I just can't imagine that this is an accurate account of the teachings of Jesus, and I sure can't see how it relates to preaching to convert nonbelievers. This story sounds like a creation of Wall Street Christians.
It's Matthew 25:14-30. It's in a group of parables surrounding the future-to-that-point razing of the temple, which is in what 70 AD? It was directed at the Apostles. It could be debated that it doesn't have to do with directly anything that any modern Christian has to deal with. There was a lot of urgency because there's only 40 years, roughly before the SHTF, and not verey long before Christ's death.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
Interesting idea there... God doesn't save but Jesus does, so anyone before Jesus is not saved?
Enough out there about God not being bound by time to make the point that Christ's death and resurrection is not forced in 1 direction because He is not a man.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Annee
Heck - 50 years ago in Christian dominated suburbs of Los Angeles - - you could get fired for not being Christian.


This still happens in 21st century America bible belt. Being outed as an atheist in my region can invite ugly, hurtful people upon them.


Oh! come on people! These little anecdotes!

On the one hand, Christians have a "persecution complex," on the other hand, atheists out of "NECESSITY" must stop Christians from having power!

On the one hand, Christian parents raising the children to believe as they do is causing psychological problems, but on the other hand, atheists teaching their children to be atheists is fine!

On the one hand, being outed as an atheist can cost you your job, and on the other hand, being outed as a Christian cost me my own!

Out of which orifice are you speaking?

But I haven't brought up my experience to whine and to blame and paint all atheists as hateful-- although the jerk who did it to me was an atheist-- and he did it to me because he could and he did it to me because he hated my faith-- which I did not bring up.

The Christian faith is every bit as subject to being abused when mixed with power and influence as the atheists have proven to be when they have power and influence.

Historical Truth, but a petty point: The Earliest Christians were called "pagans" by the polytheists and persecuted for it. The Earliest Muslims were persecuted by the animists and atheists (only finding protection with the Christians in Ethiopia). So stop the absurdity of claiming your atheism makes you a superior being-- you are just self-indulgently hate-mongering-- like many humans do (regardless of their faith).



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 05:25 PM
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I am genuinely trying to help someone to get out of the darkness and ascend with me to 5D, I don't want to leave her behind in 3D but she doesn't believe it, she thinks I'm a mad man, so I let her go, I can't save her from herself, shes a negatively charged human being.
edit on 1-10-2011 by jyze420 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 05:39 PM
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I make it a general rule not to discuss religion with anyone. But I also can’t expect someone not to try to talk to me about their faith and personal beliefs. Sometimes a person’s faith and personal beliefs is all they have. So, Can I put someone down because they trying to save my immortal soul? No. Most of the time, they do it because that’s the way they were raised. Or that’s the way that their religion has taught them to bring other people into their faith. Or on a more basic level, they just simply care about you. Do I think less of them for trying? No.
Personally I would never try to tell someone my personal beliefs or my thoughts on how we got here. Or try to bring them around to my way of thinking (trust me, it’s out there).
For centuries wars have been fought in the name of gods. Blood has been shed in the name of all sorts of religions. If we could have learned much earlier in history to be more tolerant of others beliefs and not try to force them on one another. The world would be a better place today.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Frira

On the one hand, Christian parents raising the children to believe as they do is causing psychological problems, but on the other hand, atheists teaching their children to be atheists is fine!


Nobody has to teach children atheism.



Out of which orifice are you speaking?


Likewise


So stop the absurdity of claiming your atheism makes you a superior being-- you are just self-indulgently hate-mongering-- like many humans do (regardless of their faith).


Nobody claimed any such thing. It seems you referred to some atheist that angered you. Please don't take your anger for others out on us.



posted on Oct, 1 2011 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by Annee
I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.


This is the whole problem my friend. Everyone is fighting over silly titles to land NO ONE owns.



Those "silly titles" are attached to - - political power and money.

Taking power away from religion (specifically Christian) in this country is NOT a problem -- it is a NECESSITY.

And that is the main reason for Atheists organizing.
Sometimes I think Christianity would be better proven if we'd allow this. Christianity has not died under real persecution, it has flourished.

Originally posted by alien
IF ones *intent* is to 'lead people to God' (and please, lets all just for a brief moment lay aside the usual circular debates around God, whose God, what God, or God/s) ...then my personal opinion is simple: Lead by example.
Catchphrase in the more "liberal end" of my group is, "Lead like a Shepard, not a Cattle Driver."

Originally posted by AnneeI'm all for that - - and respect that.

In my entire life - - I can count on one hand those I've met that I would say "truly walked in His footsteps".
What is sad is that there is another category, that is still close and attempting to the truly walking, that DOES NOT express themselves in a manner as to be easily understood. These are the folks who attempt to own their failures, publically. It's not something I find easy to do, so I see myself as one of them consistent failures. These types require heavy involvement to prove where they are at, spiritually.

My mom gave me the example of what happens now at work, for her. She's the only one not bickering and squabbling over every nitpicky thing, nor is she going around vindictively against everyone. She's worked there for 2-3 years, and now people have started to come to her, for perspective over who is right. My mom's response is "It's not because I'm so right! It's because I don't have the energy to fight over every single thing! Why do they think they'll get a better sense of justice by coming to me?"

Originally posted by alien
While I tend not to like to use the Bible as reason for my opinion...
In a public setting, that's a good practice to have, otherwise you're bogged down in proving the Bible, right then and there, and for most discussions, the authority of the Bible is way too wide a scope.

Originally posted by racasan
What about those Christians that try to have creationism taught as a science in schools, I understand that there are even some who would like nothing better than for TOE to be removed from the curriculum – this is forcing a belief on people
Most people who would teach anything on it would botch it. Look up Ken Ham and his reaction to the drive to put Creationism in School. He's VERY against it, and is a Creationist.

My personal disgust is that we teach things as fact and don't tend to teach how we arrived at our conclusion. Or even print known fabrications in textbooks as fact. I'm not even talking about the things we debate over, I'm talking about hoaxes exposed sometimes even 100 years ago, at this point. And there are a few. But this is going to go off topic, so if you want to talk, IM me.

Originally posted by Annee
No one can be or feel responsible for the behavior/actions or interpretation of belief/non-belief individuals.

There are extremists and just plain wackos in every aspect of humanity.

However - - - as an organized group - - Christians have a persecution complex.

They think they are being attacked - - - even though they are the ones invading everyone else's space - - and think its their duty to do so.
This in no way disagrees with anything I stated: I agree, wholeheartedly. I've had your Crisis of faith, about 5 years ago, as well. The big difference is that I stuck with Christianity, while you did not. I see flaws pretty much all the way down to the foundations of the faith.

But it is like the phrase "It's not paranoid if the world is really out to get me." Some Christians do get to plumb the depth of persecution, and often have a different reaction from all the martyr wannabes. Corrie Ten Boom is a great example. Being tested like this is one hell of a thing.





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