The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

Originally posted by Frira
First...

Is there really a problem of Christians harassing some of you, demanding that you believe as they do?

There is a lot of rhetoric portraying that as how it really is, but I live in the infamous Bible Belt, and yet have never encountered anything that could be described that way.

There's a reason we Wiccans aren't very open about our religion down here. 30 years ago, saying you were Wiccan or running a Wiccan store could get your tires slashed and your car shot at. Frequently.

Originally posted by rschmfem

Originally posted by Frira


Speaking of forcing, technically being Christian or choosing to be Christian is giving up your free will. A gift from a God that you believe in so that you can choose to follow him freely, but after you make that choice your free will is more than likely null and void due to the strict guidelines of maintaining Good Standing status with your God and your Faith and your Church, etc etc.

It isn't so much you giving up freewill , (because you don't), it is acknowledging your faith that Christ's way is the best way for you to follow, and that you will live your life from his example, not your own.. This doesn't mean you will be perfect from now on , or that you have lost any freewill, but that you will actively be trying to be more like Christ in how you conduct the rest of your life, because you care about it.

Also, there is no such thing as maintaining strict behavior because you aren't saved by your good behavior or following any strict guidelines, because you will fail that way.. Noone can earn their way to salvation, unlike how many doctrines or whatever seem to advertise..

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I KNOW I'm going to regret getting into this conversation, but...

(There's always a "but", isn't there? )

The "morality" of the attempt itself isn't the problem - it's the morality of how it's done where the problems arise.

First, I don't think any christian is going to "save any one from hell". They ain't got that kind of power - that is properly the provenance of God. All they can do is inform or lead, not "save".

many of them go about it entirely wrong. They seem to think they can bully you into looking after yer soul, or whatever it is they're thinking of it as. Harass, harass, harass. It won't work that way. All that does is piss the target off further, push them further away from any attempts at "salvation", and perhaps earn the christian type a bloody nose, so they can run off and whine about what "martyrs" they are "in the way of the Lord", or whatever the phrase is. I'm nor entirely up to speed on the catch-phrases these days.

In the immortal words of 4chan, if you're doing it that way, "you're doing it WRONG".

I reckon it could be fairly said that I don't believe like the average christian does. It gets me in trouble with christians and atheists alike. I've got a peculiar belief that's neither common nor in vogue these days, and involves "predestination". That means that I can't save you, and you can't even save yourself. If God wants you, he'll eventually get you, and if he doesn't, it ain't my place to hammer you into the fold. In other words, salvation is in God's hands, and any efforts to save anyone on my part is just a pissing in the wind.

So I don't. I've got better things to do with my day. If you don't want to be "saved", then what you get right here on Earth is all you'll ever have, and who in the hell am I to mess THAT up by bugging you about it? Especially considering that it ain't going to do any good any way, and will just wind up with both of us pissed off? I'm content to let folks enjoy what they have - as long as they're not cutting into my world - and leave 'em be, because what they have now may be ALL they ever have, so get it while it's hot!

I think, for "christians" the best way to go about it is to live a "right life" and leave folks alone. If folks look, see you at peace, and want some of that, they'll ask about it. If they don't there's no logical point in haranguing them. Lead by example, not by the nose. If you can't demonstrate a desirable example, who the hell is going to want what you have any how?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


you have to put yourselves in our shoes. people are often angry to argue with a bible believer or any creationist,but it all comes down on how much do we(who ever is spreading the message to you) really believe the scriptures.people like me who take everything in the bible,and some things of the apocrypha seriously, so i feel a need to save at least one soul. i can get ridiculed by millions but if i can reach just one than that one might reach another. this is how it spread like fire world wide.now if you do reach some one who has a change of heart, one should not feel any batter than others for GOD chose him/her(like all believers)before he created the heavens and the earth,this is part of what it means to live your life for CHRIST

Originally posted by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

you have to put yourselves in our shoes. people are often angry to argue with a bible believer or any creationist,but it all comes down on how much do we(who ever is spreading the message to you) really believe the scriptures.people like me who take everything in the bible,and some things of the apocrypha seriously, so i feel a need to save at least one soul. i can get ridiculed by millions but if i can reach just one than that one might reach another. this is how it spread like fire world wide.now if you do reach some one who has a change of heart, one should not feel any batter than others for GOD chose him/her(like all believers)before he created the heavens and the earth,this is part of what it means to live your life for CHRIST

Sorry..but I am under the firm belief that if there is indeed a living God...it's his Holy Spirit alone that actually does the saving, and the teaching. Humans may very well be vessels for that.. but they never actually "save" someone.

I think Christians forget there might be a lot more power in prayer to a living God concerning the salvation of others, and much more power in loving action inspired by god.. then a lot of words.. and bible thumping.

just my opinion..

God created man and gave him/her but one rule, and that was not to eat from the tree of life. Eve ate of the tree of life and caused that Adam would also eat of the apple. From that point the influence of evil entered the world. To stop the influence of evil, laws were later given, and ultimatly the Ten Commandments. From the time of the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, 'sin/evil/breaking the laws of God' escalated to the point that God destroyed the evil that had grown by use of the Great Flood. Moses and his family were all that were left. A new beginning started from there.

The whole point here, being that, as man sinned against God and hardened his heart, the cost of doing that, was utter destruction of the evil doers. Destruction of whole tribes was common as they worshiped other gods of their handiwork, idols or other devices that united the tribe and were used to control or keep in tow by the leaders or despots wishing to be in control. Many times these ritualistic tribes were conquered or obliterated by complete destruction, by the Faithful of God, and by God's instruction, and as an administration of Justice....Gods word and justice. It became the 'THEY' as in referring to the tribes breaking the laws of God. Also 'THEY' could, over time have become what we know as skin colors or facial features or bodily differenced, due to their isolation and inner tribal breeding. Possibly the populations were sufficient to have genetic viability, perhaps the smaller populations formed 'traits' which lent them to this 'THEY' , thus racial descriptions of tribes. It could have been color or facial structure or size or hair and eye color, it could have been just about anything distinguishable.

Thus racial slurs developed, describing whole tribes, which in time as the population grew, became Nations. The Nations that were not receptive to God were very often destroyed by Gods select peoples. This finally became Israel, Gods chosen, as they continued to honor and worship God. As those who battaled for the Lord God and were rewarded with the spoils sometimes, they were to become Gods favorites. Those wishing to corrupt these Laws and Tennants of God have invented a host of things to discredit God, thus you have the world as it is today, in the form of gays, femenists, evolutionists, vegans, drug culture, and all manner of human devised activities that are contrary to Gods Comandments and Laws. Yet they all try to validate their particular agenda by mocking the one impediment to their complete abandonment of God's laws, and that is the very existance of God. So if you find being politically correct, or liberal or any of a , If you want to have your way regardless, and God stands in your way, then simply remove God, surely no one's seen God in our lifetimes.... all the better to make the argument that He simply doesn't exist..... impediment remover, easy as that. So arises tools to further your clicks of like minds. Invent goblins, racial remarks, cultural remarks, anything to distance others with contrary agendas from you. And the tools often are just words. After a few generations it becomes ingrained. It's a concept as old as time. As for me....... Myself and my family choose to follow the Lord God. And your worldly tirades are meaningless.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I view it as unethical even though the person doing it is acting in a good-hearted manner.

If I find an ancient book from Greece that claims that eating huge amounts of honeydew will cure a particular type of cancer, I may be extremely eager to share this good news with a loved one afflicted with that cancer. I'd earnestly be trying to save a loved one but there's one problem: the claim has not been established as true. Eating honeydew instead of seeking treatment may hasten death.

Proliferating unestablished "truths" derived from ancient literature in this case would actually be harmful. It may also be harmful to inflict a fear of Hell into someone in order to "save" them from it, especially since all claims about Hell remain unestablished. Not only could this generate psychological issues but rob someone of a life they'd otherwise lead instead of adhering to ancient doctrine.

My 2 cents

edit on 30-9-2011 by traditionaldrummer because: (no reason given)

So by that token, if I were to extrapolate, you're suggesting people who aren't experts or well versed in a topic shouldn't talk about the subject matter? I suppose you'd also agree then that people who know nothing about the geosciences shouldn't be involved in the climate debate? While I'm all for seeing ignorance extracted and removed from topics where people know little to nothing. I also realize that no single person can claim to know everything about a topic.

All we can really do is try to encourage people to separate their beliefs from the known facts. I've found the best way to do this without coming across as confrontational and escalating the problem, is to ask incisive questions. "Why does your god allow suffering?" "How can a loving deity sentence people of other faiths, who are earnestly trying their best, to an eternal punishment?" Questions are often the best defense against those who promulgate belief as though it were fact.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Then the other servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your gold coin; I kept it stored away in a handkerchief, for I was afraid of you, because you are a demanding person; you take up what you did not lay down and you harvest what you did not plant.’ He said to him, ‘With your own words I shall condemn you, you wicked servant. You knew I was a demanding person, taking up what I did not lay down and harvesting what I did not plant; why did you not put my money in a bank? Then on my return I would have collected it with interest.’

Really? There were interest bearing banking systems? I thought Jesus frowned upon usary, taking interest on loaned money, and considered it sinful. Didn't he throw the money merchants out of the temple?

I just can't imagine that this is an accurate account of the teachings of Jesus, and I sure can't see how it relates to preaching to convert nonbelievers. This story sounds like a creation of Wall Street Christians.

Anyway, who does the saving, Christians or God or Jesus? Why do Christains think they can save anybody when Jesus already did the deed. What is the "word" that they are supposed to spread, that hell is at hand or Jesus already did the job, and it is done? That's good news right, that we are already saved? Isn't that what we need to have faith in......?

Originally posted by windword
I just can't imagine that this is an accurate account of the teachings of Jesus, and I sure can't see how it relates to preaching to convert nonbelievers. This story sounds like a creation of Wall Street Christians.

Nope. It's Biblical. The point of the story was that what was given should be shared so that it multiplies, not horded.

Anyway, who does the saving, Christians or God or Jesus? Why do Christains think they can save anybody when Jesus already did the deed. What is the "word" that they are supposed to spread, that hell is at hand or Jesus already did the job, and it is done? That's good news right, that we are already saved? Isn't that what we need to have faith in......?

Interesting idea there... God doesn't save but Jesus does, so anyone before Jesus is not saved?

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Frira
First...

Is there really a problem of Christians harassing some of you, demanding that you believe as they do?

There is a lot of rhetoric portraying that as how it really is, but I live in the infamous Bible Belt, and yet have never encountered anything that could be described that way.

There's a reason we Wiccans aren't very open about our religion down here. 30 years ago, saying you were Wiccan or running a Wiccan store could get your tires slashed and your car shot at. Frequently.

Heck - 50 years ago in Christian dominated suburbs of Los Angeles - - you could get fired for not being Christian.

Can't even imagine the bible belt - - - where the first question asked is "What church do you go to".

I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.

Wow, I seem to see the religious empire switch hinted at over and over wherever I go. Metaphor or real, Christ showed the way home. And I'm not that young myself, in the neighboring country to the North, yet never heard of faith being the thing that got you hired. Generally speaking it was knowing someone, and being outgoing, sort of all the things that still get people hired. What can be pointed out is the higher standard of living, human rights, and equality that exists in so called Christian, or should we say, free nations.

Originally posted by Annee
I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.

This is the whole problem my friend. Everyone is fighting over silly titles to land NO ONE owns.

It is an inheritance we receive at birth, and taken back at death.

Only to be given again until we learn to share it.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by DarkKnight76
Well, once I tell you I am not interested in your voodoo mumbojumbo, then it is time to shut up and let me burn.

I think that's the thing though, they refuse to stop. It's like you saying no is similar to a potential rapist or stalker being told no, they enjoy beavering away until they finally get their hands on you.

Even my girlfriend (who is Catholic) hates people who push their religion onto other people and try to convert them. There's one or two Jehoha's Witnesses that pretty much follow her to her house and workplace trying to get her to convert to their idiotic views.

I might even add the fastest way to get a job has never been being a "Christian" except for the low end and worker bee jobs. The gnostics reward their own.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by Annee
I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.

This is the whole problem my friend. Everyone is fighting over silly titles to land NO ONE owns.

Those "silly titles" are attached to - - political power and money.

Taking power away from religion (specifically Christian) in this country is NOT a problem -- it is a NECESSITY.

And that is the main reason for Atheists organizing.

Originally posted by Unity_99
I might even add the fastest way to get a job has never been being a "Christian" except for the low end and worker bee jobs. The gnostics reward their own.

Well - - then you didn't live in a Christian dominated suburb of Los Angeles in the 50s.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by Annee
I've watched the Christians lose their hold on society/politics for the last 50+ years. They really do think they OWN this country.

This is the whole problem my friend. Everyone is fighting over silly titles to land NO ONE owns.

Those "silly titles" are attached to - - political power and money.

Taking power away from religion (specifically Christian) in this country is NOT a problem -- it is a NECESSITY.

And that is the main reason for Atheists organizing.

Not for long.



With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by gabby2011


did you not understand what i said.GOD chose that individual before the creation of the heavens and the earth.it is him who has CHOSEN all that will ever be saved,this doesent mean you should just accept god and he will do all the work, with that immature thinking we will bring our own persecution. will you die for your believes?. i will,and hope i really die for something with a meaning. and of course i care about these people not burning in hell if, that was not the case i wouldn't be here making my point.

IF ones *intent* is to 'lead people to God' (and please, lets all just for a brief moment lay aside the usual circular debates around God, whose God, what God, or God/s) ...then my personal opinion is simple: Lead by example.


...there is no greater sin - in my opinion - than to turn someones face from God...


So...if your actions and approaches are causing people to revile you, to turn from you, to move AWAY and not TOWARD...then "check yo'self befo' yo' wreck yo'self"...

Id like to say that this thread is a really interesting discussion. Nice going all

I think its an important part of life to let people exercise their ability to choose. Every choice takes us further downward or upward. It is not my job to save anyone. I can make recommendations based on my way of seeing things...but what if my way of seeing things is wrong? What if my recommendations lead someone downwards instead of upwards? Thats why its good to give direction and advice to children, but once they are adults, they should be let free to make their own experiences and form their own views. Even bad experiences or "downward movement" can be a good lesson. Therefore, it is not my job to protect people from bad experiences. I will help only if they specifically request it.