The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by kimish

 

What, do missionaries go raping and killing? How exactly are they "forcing' it? If hell is real you have to warn them. And Jesus did say He was the only way, so they can't say don't abandon your idols.

He did say he was the only way,
No, the missionaries are persistent on one believing what they do and manipulate them into believing what they believe in by telling them of hell or how great Heaven is and they won't ever get their unless they believe in Christ and he was the only Son, etc,etc. and what that essentially does is create a fear amongst a people so if they don't believe or obide by certain such and such they will face an excruciating demise and life there on after. I would be frightened to if I were in those peoples shoes (ie. indigenous tribes, etc.).

And Jesus did say that he say he was the only way (or however it is said in the gospels 'which weren't even written by any of the apostles' ) in those exact words? We can never know because the earliest gospel was written at least 50 years after Christ Jesus crucifixion and not by the Apostles, also, the the Holy Cannon has been translated soo many times and passed through so many hands prior to mass production we can only surmise that was "basically" what he was saying. So, like I stated before, when he said that he was the only way, who's to say that what he literally meant was listening to him was the right path into the Kingdom of the Father?

Christ Jesus taught us how to live in order to "live" (after death is life) and that was the only way in which you could reach heaven.

reply to post by kimish


The scriptures do say those who have the Son have everlasting life, and those who do not have the wrath of God. If they preached anything else they would be lying.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
There is nothing moral about trying to tell someone what to believe or to try and change what they believe.

This is too absolute. We tell KKK members that they're wrong for their beliefs all the time, and never think about whether it is right or wrong for them to believe as they wish.

No it isnt too absolute. Every single person on this earth has a right to believe anything and everything they want, and it is no one elses place to try and change their mind.

You are confusing beliefs with actions. We tell the KKK their actions are wrong. They have every right to believe that whites are the chosen race. Its when they ACT, infringing the rights of others, that it becomes wrong.

But you act because of your beliefs, so this is still a problem.

Originally posted by Kingalbrect79

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
There is nothing moral about trying to tell someone what to believe or to try and change what they believe.

This is too absolute. We tell KKK members that they're wrong for their beliefs all the time, and never think about whether it is right or wrong for them to believe as they wish.

Members of the christian church, or the KKK have the freedom in this country to believe whatever they wish and it is protected by our constitution. However, in regards to both groups, when their beliefs cross the line into persecution, oppression and violence, then it becomes a problem of everyone.

The KKK isn't a problem when they hold their little meetings and rallies, but when they attack gays, jews or any other individual in order to force their beliefs on you, then they are in the wrong and must be corrected. The same thing can go for christians, islamist and any other religious belief. When they practice in the church each week no one has a problem, but when they openly force their beliefs on you and me (WBC is a good example), then they must be confronted and corrected as to proper social behavior.

Social behavior and culture acceptance of beliefs differs from region to region, so even this is up for debate, but no one has the right to force you to change your beliefs, but they do have the right to defend themselves from it.

King

This hopefully isn't about forcing someone to change their beliefs. It ought to be about reasoning with them. You cannot change anyone's mind by force, and it's up to them to change anyway.

Originally posted by kimish
reply to post by Klassified

 

Agreed. Share their faith but don't push their faith onto someone. In your opinion would you say missionaries push their faith or just "spread" it?

Some share. Some push. There's no cookie cutter for this.

Originally posted by kimish
I can agree but, going to a nation with virtually no crime where everyone cares for another, basically living the life that Christ Jesus tried to teach us to live, and trying to spread the "gospel" is wrong in my eyes because they already have it "right" to begin with.

It's more complicated than lifestyle. It's internal behaviour change and a "proposal of marriage".

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by alienreality

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
There is nothing moral about trying to tell someone what to believe or to try and change what they believe.

Ahh, I see... So then, the guy that I talked out of believing his life wasn't worth living and that he really should not jump from a 16 story balcony, because I believe his life IS worth while, So I should have just agreed with him and watched him jump?....

edit on 30-9-2011 by alienreality because: (no reason given)

You are confusing emotions with a belief. Someone in a depressed state is not a comparison to how someone views their spirituality and eternity.

That assumes no one looks at their future without emotions which is definitely untrue. Even those who insist on being soly logical often have an emotional component in their decisions.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Missionary work is simply theological fascism. I find it insidious to exploit the people and problems in faraway communities to promote your unproven beliefs (especially when derived from a book making many claims we now know are untrue). It would be far more humanitarian to bring such people education, vocation and critical thinking skills - with a prejudice against superstition. Just my opinion.

Missionaries' goals were to subjugate the people, confiscate their land, put the native poplulation to work in the plantations and mines, and make them abandon their culture and language, or else die at the hands of the church and their henchmen.

How many Christian slave drivers were there in Christian history. When did the Roman Catholic Church condemn slavery? When did Christian missionaries ever do anything other than assault humanity?

youtu.be...

And the other side of that coin is the movie "Amazing Grace". "Christianity" was far more divided by slavery than any other subject, and to only point out one side is lacking.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Are those people in your life who try to convert you to save you from Hell moral and correct in their actions?

If one sincerely believes in Hell and cares about you enough to try to save you from it, they must be a moral and caring person acting in the right, otherwise to let you perish would make them an amoral sociopath.

However, the more someone tries to save you, the more of an undesirable creep they are perceived to be. Religious conversion is often unwanted.

Is the attempt to save others from Hell a moral action or is it an unethical action?

I need 20 posts so I will reply to this ridiculous thread.

If you are religious and study the bedtime stories, the bible, the Koran etc, you will notice that they all have one thing in common. The people in those books lead boring lives and everything that makes life worth living is frowned upon.

So that would draw the conclusion that in Hell, the opposite is quite possibly the case. So hedonism and smoking and drinking and partying are the norm.

Its religion that make Hell out to be a torturous place to stop people enjoying their lives. All lies.

Give me a one way ticket to hell any day.

If you look at all the people who are going to hell, then I would prefer them. Hookers, loose women, the girls from Hugh Hefners place, Cheerleaders for not wearing enough cloths etc. Plus you could pick Hilters brain and find out what he was really planning for the world if he succeeded and if he had technology that was far beyond what was around then.

Think outside the box people!!! Hell would be a marvelous place to spend eternity if you are even slightly curious.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by kimish

 

Excuse me but....."balony!"

Missionaries were the first wave in a planned and insidious attack on native peoples all over the world, for the purpose of colonization out greed and power. TPTB wanted the land and the resources, and the people there were resources as well. Churches were rich. Missionaries were put in place in order to seduce and control the population with the fear of hell and to shame of the leaders of their evil cultures.

Abrahamic religions are all rife with slavery, its in the Bible! Missionaries of all kinds promoted theft, coersion and slavery.

Yes, slavery is throughout the Bible: Jews were ordered to free anyone who sold themselves into slavery in various manners. The Jews went into slavery and captivity 4-5 times in their history before Christ. The Romans allowed slavery. And Paul sent back a slave with the plea to his master that this slave become more than a mere slave to him. Again, slavery and the Bible is not straightforward unless you make it so.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by kimish
We can't condemn all missionaries or the entire church for doing such ugly deeds.

Why can't we? What if Christianity is entirely untrue? Let's put the ugly deeds aside for a moment and focus on that.

The thing is that even if you can find untruths in the text, there is still things that are facts. Pilate was over part of the Jewish territories. Rome did make people go back to their origin to count them for their census. Herod was high priest. There were Hellenized Jews. I'm not going to go into details because that would really derail this mess. Since there's a group that wants NOTHING to be true and another who wants EVERYTHING, listening to one side's proofs is asking for not having all the facts.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by sirenofthedead
1) Should one ever presume that they are qualified to judge the righteousness of another? What makes you an authority?

I am an authority if I am subject to the actions of another.

2) Some people believe that karmic contracts are made before we are incarnated. The "evil-doer" may well be making a karmic sacrifice on behalf of someone else, for all you or I know.

3) Some people believe there are no others.

edit on 30/9/11 by sirenofthedead because: (no reason given)

Sure, and some people might believe that Blue Puffies will drown you in the bathtub unless they "save" you. That is their problem, not mine, and I am certainly allowed the authority to judge their righteousness.

Bible backs up that Christians will be condemned for their behaviour--especially ill behaviour--by those outside of Christianity. *shrugs*

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
There is nothing moral about trying to tell someone what to believe or to try and change what they believe.

This is too absolute. We tell KKK members that they're wrong for their beliefs all the time, and never think about whether it is right or wrong for them to believe as they wish.

I've never had a KKK member knocking on my door - - to preach their belief.

Have you?

Not knocking on my door, specifically, but I have ran across recruitment. In all honesty, door knocking hasn't worked since the before the 80s.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by kimish
That is how I was raised to believe in JC but now that i'm a little older and more mature I don't agree with that mindset. Organized religion stinks and if JC were to see how things are now and with the religion of Christianity, I feel he wouldn't appreciate it.

Unfortunately you are right but I don't believe all missionaries have that train of thought. I would say 99/100 do though and that is a shame.

Well, there is only one reason we pay any attention to Jesus and it has nothing to do with his oft-quoted "wise words". If people didn't think he was there to save them from the wrath of God, few people would find his humanitarian platitudes much more than a curiosity.

Like Socrates? There's enough people out there that look at the teaching of Christ as merely another philosophy. Nothing more, nothing less.

Are there, in the universe, any circumscribed places set apart for the joys and sorrows of spirits, according to their merits?

"We have already answered this question. The joys and sorrows of spirits are inherent in the degree of perfection at which they have arrived. Each spirit finds in himself the principle of his happiness or unhappiness; and, as spirits are everywhere, no enclosed or circumscribed place is set apart for either the One or the other. As for incarnated spirits, they are more or less happy or unhappy, according as the world they inhabit is more or less advanced."

-- "Heaven" and "hell," then, as men have imagined them, have no existence?

"They are only symbols; there are happy and unhappy spirits everywhere. Nevertheless, as we have also told you, spirits of the same order are brought together by sympathy; but, when they are perfect, they can meet together wherever they will."

The localization of rewards and punishments in fixed places exists only in man's imagination; it proceeds from his' tendency to materialize and to circumscribe the things of which he cannot comprehend the essential infinitude.


Book

reply to post by projectbane


Funny. There's a "Church" that teaches this.

Of course, it is moral to save people from hell, even though hell was created by the same entity who claims to be able protect you from it for the price of your soul. who doesn't want to go to a heaven where spirits praise, worship and stroke this entity's ego for all eternality?

A good bargin if it were real, which sadly one can only discover upon death, and faith is all we have for now.

It is a pretty good insurance for the afterlife, with just a small fraction (more or all will be better) of your time, money, effort, devotion, future generations and protection of the practice.

Of course, the mafia offers a similar deal with some slight variations, which is incidentally also a very good deal if you do not want to die or suffer much at their hands or other practices similar to theirs.

All you need is "FEAR", for an entity that preaches love, it sure is almost a fool proof way of getting that love from others. An amazing contradiction, which a being of "unconditional" love would even consider for all of eternatity, while it's followers proclaim is done in name of love! Love sure is amazing and powerful!!!

It isn't hard to find real-life Hells, where people are tortured for as long as humanly possible with the perpetraters of these twisted dungeons having only love in their hearts for the vicitims of these environments.

God works in mysterious ways, so do all predators and scams on this earth as well......

Love and Fear, a very thin line seperates the two?

Actions speak louder then words, do not fear to question. Only by asking question can the truth be discovered from the lies.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Are those people in your life who try to convert you to save you from Hell moral and correct in their actions?

If one sincerely believes in Hell and cares about you enough to try to save you from it, they must be a moral and caring person acting in the right, otherwise to let you perish would make them an amoral sociopath.

However, the more someone tries to save you, the more of an undesirable creep they are perceived to be. Religious conversion is often unwanted.

Is the attempt to save others from Hell a moral action or is it an unethical action?

MT 10:11 "Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."



It is moral and it is justified. People have a very limited ammount of time in their physical vessels, at most maybe 125 years. As a previous poster has suggested, it requires a lot of sacrifice on behalf of the one bringing the message to be effective. Even so, there will always be those who think they know better than Jesus Christ.



JN 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: `No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.

It's a moral action.

Definition of moral (adjective)
Concerned with the principles of right and wrong behaviour and the goodness or badness of human character

The main rubbing point for most people is how it's done - the difference between someone handing you a flyer versus somebody standing at your door not letting you shut it. A quiet word v. In your face. Threats v. Message of love.

The motive behind both is the same:
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Whether or not you believe in some sort of life after death, a Christian's heart understands just what Christ did for each one of us when He died for us on that cross. Out of love for mankind.

The implications of an attempt to 'save' one from 'hell' is absolutely a 'moral' act... the devil, no pun intended, is in the details.

anyone can attempt to save anyone from anything... the question is, how does the 'saved' view the 'savior' and vice versa.

think about it.