The Morality Of Saving People From Hell

Originally posted by Ashira

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Ashira
wear a cross lapel pin, if they ask then about it tell them the good news

OR - - a Crescent - - a Star of David - - a CTR pin - - an Atomic symbol - Celtic Cross - Wheel - Lotus -Yin Yang - - nothing but a smile.

Religious symbols of the world: www.religionfacts.com...

Out of over 4,000 spiritual beliefs in the world which ones have the Creator becoming a human and then laying down His life to save His creation?

I would expect every single one of them to share this one way or the other. I think the differences are mostly in the rituals and interpretations of the words in the ancient texts.

Originally posted by BlueSkies

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Ashira

 

In my opinion the best way one can know the heart of a person is by looking at his fruit (children). A good tree produces good fruit while a bad tree produces bad fruit.

I am very curious by what criteria you determine children good or bad...

It is not the children that are good or bad as they have not reached an age of reason. So since they cannot have the full understanding I don't believe they can be fully accountable. But if you look at the way they behave and weather they act by moral standards you can get a better understanding of the parent.

This verse is also talking about teachers of the Gospel, you can tell a lot about the church by the ones who call themselves members.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by redstorm

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Ashira

 

What you say is true, but remember God says that not all that have ears will hear. He does not say they will not be forgiven or be able to go to heaven. These are 2 separate concepts that are often mashed together. Everyone’s path to heaven will be Jesus but not everyone will understand that the love inside them that guides them is from Jesus.

In my opinion the best way one can know the heart of a person is by looking at his fruit (children). A good tree produces good fruit while a bad tree produces bad fruit.

So how does one explain those who possess hearts that are black and full of hatred? Are they evil? Are they misfortuned? Are they doomed? You can not help what you feel, right?.

First answer everyone has the ability to choose God and obtain salvation as all sins were forgiven at the crucifixion. I’m sure you have heard of prison inmates turning their lives over to God.

Second answer, bad angels and demons are real they are in the bible and I believe this to be true. And some people might not be from God and therefore will not go to God. Here is some scripture that support the second part of this statement.

Mathew 15-23
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

edit on 5-10-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

You can repeat bible quotes as often as you want. And I very much respect your belief in them. I think they are very important guidance for Christians on their paths. I am just wondering why you consider the bible valid and all other ancient texts invalid?

Originally posted by BlueSkies

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
I do believe in the bible. I sincerely hope that none of my posts offended you. I am zealous in my belief in the bible and against all religions that teach contradictions.

No - I am not offended. Having opinion on the subject is what you are supposed to do.

I absolutely do not believe the bible is accurate in any way - - in regards to the truth about the real historical Jesus.

I do believe there is truth in the bible - - - as most stories have truth in them.

I do not believe the "mythical bible Jesus" story at all. I mean zero.

What I am always struggling with is how one religion can be "good" and the other "bad". It's just perspectives and in the end just one of the paths anyone chooses to travel. I personally think it does not matter much which path you choose and even if you choose an undefined path you are still on a path

It is not a question of good or bad it is a question of Truth or not Truth. I could go into much about why I feel so many religions simply by their own statements not be based in truth but that is a much longer reply. I don’t believe many people go around teaching things that they believe to be untrue but I do believe that they have indeed been led away from truth.

reply to post by redstorm


My apologies. I misunderstood your no-quote request. Will keep in mind

Originally posted by BlueSkies

Originally posted by Ashira

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Ashira
wear a cross lapel pin, if they ask then about it tell them the good news

OR - - a Crescent - - a Star of David - - a CTR pin - - an Atomic symbol - Celtic Cross - Wheel - Lotus -Yin Yang - - nothing but a smile.

Religious symbols of the world: www.religionfacts.com...

Out of over 4,000 spiritual beliefs in the world which ones have the Creator becoming a human and then laying down His life to save His creation?

I would expect every single one of them to share this one way or the other. I think the differences are mostly in the rituals and interpretations of the words in the ancient texts.

Research it and see.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by BlueSkies

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
I do believe in the bible. I sincerely hope that none of my posts offended you. I am zealous in my belief in the bible and against all religions that teach contradictions.

No - I am not offended. Having opinion on the subject is what you are supposed to do.

I absolutely do not believe the bible is accurate in any way - - in regards to the truth about the real historical Jesus.

I do believe there is truth in the bible - - - as most stories have truth in them.

I do not believe the "mythical bible Jesus" story at all. I mean zero.

What I am always struggling with is how one religion can be "good" and the other "bad". It's just perspectives and in the end just one of the paths anyone chooses to travel. I personally think it does not matter much which path you choose and even if you choose an undefined path you are still on a path

It is not a question of good or bad it is a question of Truth or not Truth. I could go into much about why I feel so many religions simply by their own statements not be based in truth but that is a much longer reply. I don’t believe many people go around teaching things that they believe to be untrue but I do believe that they have indeed been led away from truth.

I understand. However how are you so certain you are not also lead away from the Truth? I can point out many things in Christianity which are not based in love. Shouldn't the Truth always resonate with love?

Originally posted by BlueSkies

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by BlueSkies

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sacgamer25
I do believe in the bible. I sincerely hope that none of my posts offended you. I am zealous in my belief in the bible and against all religions that teach contradictions.

No - I am not offended. Having opinion on the subject is what you are supposed to do.

I absolutely do not believe the bible is accurate in any way - - in regards to the truth about the real historical Jesus.

I do believe there is truth in the bible - - - as most stories have truth in them.

I do not believe the "mythical bible Jesus" story at all. I mean zero.

What I am always struggling with is how one religion can be "good" and the other "bad". It's just perspectives and in the end just one of the paths anyone chooses to travel. I personally think it does not matter much which path you choose and even if you choose an undefined path you are still on a path

It is not a question of good or bad it is a question of Truth or not Truth. I could go into much about why I feel so many religions simply by their own statements not be based in truth but that is a much longer reply. I don’t believe many people go around teaching things that they believe to be untrue but I do believe that they have indeed been led away from truth.

I understand. However how are you so certain you are not also lead away from the Truth? I can point out many things in Christianity which are not based in love. Shouldn't the Truth always resonate with love?

There are many things that are not based in love in the religion that they now call "Christianity" but where are the things that Christ Himself said that are not based in love?

reply to post by Ashira


God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message. (NLT, Romans 2:12-16)

You must try and understand that this verse clearly makes your claims true, with a BIG BUT. You still want to hold someone to an act for them to get to heaven. God gives forgiveness to all without any act being necessary. God’s fruit know Gods message no matter how they know it. It is a living part of them. The voice he is referring to is coming from inside not from any understanding of bible passage.

Just because one reads the bible and doesn't understand it or has been to a bad church and has rejected Jesus because of this it does not condemn them to hell. You and I do not know if Gods words are in someone. The only way God gives us to know is by their acts, for us to know not God, or by their fruit.

The only other truth is that if someone rejects the word as a believer you should not maintain contact with that person. Again this is for you not God as these persons disbelief may lead to your own falling away.

Anyone who says if you don't believe in Christ you will go to hell is judging that persons sin with the weight of hell. I refuse to adhere to this type of judging and thinking.

My logic does not go against one single bible verse, but the logic you have been taught goes against several. If any part of an interpretation of the bible contradicts another verse it must not be a valid interpretation.

I explain this in detail because I believe you are a good person who could help others.

reply to post by redstorm


I understand more than most. But since you don't understand how ATS works by quoting others than I see no reason to reply to you again.

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reply to post by BlueSkies


Every action and every instruction in the bible leads to love. For those that understand the bible we know the bible is in fact the greatest love story ever told. Not one of us measures up to Christ, nor can one of us love like Christ. It is only by allowing Christ’s love to shine through us that we may be a light to the world.

reply to post by sacgamer25

You still want to hold someone to an act for them to get to heaven.

One small thing here. Man will inherit the new Earth and not heaven. Heaven is reserved for God and the Angels after the Great Harvest. But, if you make that choice and you die now, then yes you will go to heaven until the end, then you will inherit the new Earth.

reply to post by redstorm


I am slightly intrigued by what you are implying. I am a man of a decent income that currently lives by a standard well below that of my peers because I have placed others needs ahead of mine. I also am not a coveter and would never want to take anything that belonged to someone else. So unless you somehow know me or have another point to make than you need not reply.

reply to post by Ashira

Agreed. But you can say the same of other spiritual leaders like Buddha or even more recently Gandhi. They were not Christian.

As a contrast I do not know any stories of Buddhists acting from hatred where as Christian history is full of fear and bloodshed.

Again as I indicated I much belief in Christ consciousness and its value. I just belief this has little to do with Christianity and the bible (except the bible gives account of Jesus' life who is a perfect example of Christ consciousness).

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Ashira

 

God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message. (NLT, Romans 2:12-16)

You must try and understand that this verse clearly makes your claims true, with a BIG BUT. You still want to hold someone to an act for them to get to heaven. God gives forgiveness to all without any act being necessary. God’s fruit know Gods message no matter how they know it. It is a living part of them. The voice he is referring to is coming from inside not from any understanding of bible passage.

Just because one reads the bible and doesn't understand it or has been to a bad church and has rejected Jesus because of this it does not condemn them to hell. You and I do not know if Gods words are in someone. The only way God gives us to know is by their acts, for us to know not God, or by their fruit.

The only other truth is that if someone rejects the word as a believer you should not maintain contact with that person. Again this is for you not God as these persons disbelief may lead to your own falling away.

Anyone who says if you don't believe in Christ you will go to hell is judging that persons sin with the weight of hell. I refuse to adhere to this type of judging and thinking.

My logic does not go against one single bible verse, but the logic you have been taught goes against several. If any part of an interpretation of the bible contradicts another verse it must not be a valid interpretation.

I explain this in detail because I believe you are a good person who could help others.

Romans 2:12-16

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
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Everyone has the law in their hearts, if someone steals, murders and destroys another person and they don't feel bad about doing it then the Lord won't let them in His Heaven. It's not for me to judge, it's the Lord's to judge because He knows everyone's hearts. I just tell the people to repent(turn away from evil) like He told me to.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Only parts of the bible. There are lots of things in these books as well as the interpretations by Christianity which invoke fear. I do not see how anything which makes people fear is based in love.

It's not so much the prophecies of Jesus but many other parts of the bible though which invoke fear.